Just or Merciful

[Moral Orel]

I'd love to, but you can't make up your own definition of words, okay?

Okay. I'll cite sources:
Justice
From the link: "Justice, in its broadest sense, is the principle that people receive that which they deserve"
I said that practicing justice is to ensure that people get the punishments they deserve.

Mercy
From the link: "Mercy can be defined as compassion or forbearance shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one's power"
I said that practicing mercy is to spare people from punishments they deserve.

I didn't just "make up" definitions for words. I gave descriptions of how words are commonly used amongst people in the context of retributive justice in Christianity. Unbelievers get punished because they deserve it, and God spares believers because of mercy.

Do you have a comment that is on topic?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My descriptions are very basic and are inline with my statement that all humans deserve death because of sin but only by grace does God spare some. Which is also a very basic description of these concepts in the Bible which I don't believe are controversial nor do I believe you personally disagree with it being the Biblical stance.

If God can't offer mercy at the same time He applies justice in an omniscient way, and if He were truly consistent with 'your' implied definitions (which are by no means clear anyway), then I'd think we see Him just kill every person who sins the first time. Dead. End of story.

But He doesn't. Not now, and not even in the Bible, going all the way back to the Edenic narrative.

So, obviously, what the Bible means by "justice" and "mercy" isn't exactly synonymous with what falls out of the brains of various judges living in our Modern judicial systems.

 

[cloudyday2]

Thanks. Very helpful. It turns out that I've been a proponent of Retributivism this whole time.

Thanks again.

Apparently the definition you assumed (retributive justice) was the definition @Moral Orel intended for this discussion, and the definitions I was considering were not intended. Probably the unstated reward and punishment was heaven and hell, so allowing some people to escape punishment in hell would seem to be only a partial and arbitrary practice of justice. With the restrictions in the way the OP is framed, the thread becomes kind of academic and uninteresting to me. I would rather open up discussion to alternative ideas about God and his purposes, but of course it's not my thread and I'll respect what @Moral Orel wants.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

And I would say that practicing mercy is to spare people from punishments they deserve.

It's a good point - that if forgiveness exists, it has to in some sense exist not because of but in spite of justice. I am forgiven in other words not because I deserve it but because I am being treated in spite of what I deserve.

 

[Moral Orel]

If God can't offer mercy at the same time He applies justice in an omniscient way, and if He were truly consistent with 'your' implied definitions (which are by no means clear anyway), then I'd think we see Him just kill every person who sins the first time. Dead. End of story.

But He doesn't. Not now, and not even in the Bible, going all the way back to the Edenic narrative.

So, obviously, what the Bible means by "justice" and "mercy" isn't exactly synonymous with what falls out of the brains of various judges living in our Modern judicial systems.

God set a time limit, that's all our continued earthly existence has to mean. Waiting for judgement doesn't make it not justice.

 

[Paulomycin]

I didn't just "make up" definitions for words. I gave descriptions of how words are commonly used amongst people in the context of retributive justice in Christianity. Unbelievers get punished because they deserve it, and God spares believers because of mercy.

That's great, because I often get really nervous whenever someone (anyone, really) insists that words are subjective. Common-use makes them prescriptive, or else everyone has a license to equivocate and lie. Okay? I just want to keep things nice and honest. Hope you understand.

Now, I agree with the above, because believers are saved by grace and mercy.

- Grace, by definition, is not owed (no one is entitled to it).
- Mercy, by definition, is not owed (no one is entitled to that either).
- Everyone is born in sin and deserves nothing less than God's eternal retributive justice.
- Part of becoming a believer is admitting to God that you deserve nothing less than God's eternal retributive justice.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

God set a time limit, that's all our continued earthly existence has to mean. Waiting for judgement doesn't make it not justice.

Well then, I'm not seeing the problem here.

 

[Paulomycin]

Well then, I'm not seeing the problem here.

He's essentially saying, "Justice delayed is justice denied," but at the same time we're working with a "one day is as a thousand years" timeline here.

And since everyone individually gets < 100 years or so, then it looks like pretty timely justice to me.

Or, you could erase the entire blackboard and argue that since it was all pre-planned from the foundation of the world, then judgment has already been declared and everyone's pretty much on a long walk down the hall to the chair.

 

[Paulomycin]

Well then, I'm not seeing the problem here.

Or maybe I misread Orel.

"Waiting for judgement doesn't make it not justice."

Does that mean he's saying waiting for judgement doesn't make it injustice?

Does that mean he's saying waiting for judgement doesn't make it something other than justice?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Or maybe I misread Orel.

"Waiting for judgement doesn't make it not justice."

Does that mean he's saying waiting for judgement doesn't make it injustice?

Does that mean he's saying waiting for judgement doesn't make it something other than justice?

No, it means he (i.e. Orel) has an "agenda" for some particular viewpoint and/or purpose of his own, one that he thinks exposes a crinkle in the Biblical economy of salvation.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

God set a time limit, that's all our continued earthly existence has to mean. Waiting for judgement doesn't make it not justice.

In this allusion of yours, are you wanting to bring our collective attention to what "Justice" and "Mercy" mean in the O.T. Hebrew language and the N.T. Greek language? Because if you are, then I think I can tag along with you.

But if you are trying to import into this discussion some Modern English representation that might reflect modern notions of these terms as they may sit a little awkwardly in our current Bible translations, then I'm not with you.

For my part, I'm just sitting here with all 889 pages of my copy of the Dictionary of Scripture and Ethics (ed. Joel B. Green) [2011] with the "Justice" and "Mercy" entries wide open as my beginning point for hermeneutical study.

Any comments here, Orel?

 

[Paulomycin]

No, it means he (i.e. Orel) has an "agenda" for some particular viewpoint and/or purpose of his own, one that he thinks exposes a crinkle in the Biblical economy of salvation.

Ha-ha-ha, don' be silly Philo! How could you possibly say such a thing??? This is not at all directed at Orel personally, as I am sure he's fully capable of maturity, learning, and change, but anyone trying to pursue that very agenda you just stated is truly shallow, and anyone reporting me for saying so is essentially admitting to that very agenda themselves.

Sorry my friend, I just have to disagree. Not my CF atheists. I should expect any self-respecting member here to be far less petty and trifling than that.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Does God practice justice, or does God practice mercy?

I would say that practicing justice is to ensure that people get punishments they deserve.

And I would say that practicing mercy is to spare people from punishments they deserve.

Clearly, it isn't possible to do both, so which does God practice?

No, He does both. In some situations God may decide justice is best and in others He may decide mercy is called for. Just like in our salvation. God metes out His justice on His son for our sin but by accepting Jesus as our substitute for our deserved justice, we receive mercy.

 

[Moral Orel]

Well then, I'm not seeing the problem here.

He's essentially saying, "Justice delayed is justice denied," but at the same time we're working with a "one day is as a thousand years" timeline here.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm accepting that God can get around to dispensing justice on His schedule. Folks who get mercy never get justice. That's the issue. It's unjust to prevent punishment for people who deserve punishment.

 

[Moral Orel]

No, it means he (i.e. Orel) has an "agenda" for some particular viewpoint and/or purpose of his own, one that he thinks exposes a crinkle in the Biblical economy of salvation.

Ha-ha-ha, don' be silly Philo! How could you possibly say such a thing??? This is not at all directed at Orel personally, as I am sure he's fully capable of maturity, learning, and change, but anyone trying to pursue that very agenda you just stated is truly shallow, and anyone reporting me for saying so is essentially admitting to that very agenda themselves.

Sorry my friend, I just have to disagree. Not my CF atheists. I should expect any self-respecting member here to be far less petty and trifling than that.

That's not my agenda. I'd appreciate it if you guys would just answer questions and make comments honestly instead of trying to guess what I'm on about and responding in line with what you think my point is.

 

[Moral Orel]

In this allusion of yours, are you wanting to bring our collective attention to what "Justice" and "Mercy" mean in the O.T. Hebrew language and the N.T. Greek language? Because if you are, then I think I can tag along with you.

But if you are trying to import into this discussion some Modern English representation that might reflect modern notions of these terms as they may sit a little awkwardly in our current Bible translations, then I'm not with you.

For my part, I'm just sitting here with all 889 pages of my copy of the Dictionary of Scripture and Ethics (ed. Joel B. Green) [2011] with the "Justice" and "Mercy" entries wide open as my beginning point for hermeneutical study.

Any comments here, Orel?

You're focusing on my choice of words to represent the concepts I've described instead of looking at the concepts themselves. I think my word choice is fitting, but if it's not, are the concepts I've described unbiblical?

 

[Moral Orel]

No, He does both. In some situations God may decide justice is best and in others He may decide mercy is called for. Just like in our salvation. God metes out His justice on His son for our sin but by accepting Jesus as our substitute for our deserved justice, we receive mercy.

Sorry friend, I don't want to ignore you because you're a nice guy, but I gotta tell you now that I am too impatient to have a conversation on here with you. You take a really long time between posts, and I just can't stand it! It isn't a fault on your part, don't get me wrong, I should take my time more too. But I'm not gonna, and I'll own that. Feel free to chime in as much as you like along the way, but don't take me as rude for not responding to your posts.

 

[Paulomycin]

It's unjust to prevent punishment for people who deserve punishment.

Why? This is what, the 2nd time (?) you've asserted this without explanation.

 

[Paulomycin]

It's unjust to prevent punishment for people who deserve punishment.

Here, I'll help you out:

1. Everyone deserves punishment.
2. God is consistently just.
3. Punishment is not prevented, but rather it is poured out equally, and upon everyone equally.
4. Jesus Christ presents Himself as the substitute for God's wrath; standing in-place of all believers (who still justly deserve punishment, regardless).
5. God's eternal wrath upon eternal cosmic treason (sin) is satisfied when Jesus stands as substitute. <-- This is called, "simul justus et peccator," which means "righteous (justified), and sinners at the same time." Why? Because the sinners worthy of God's wrath are covered by the atoning death of Christ.

This was determined before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:3-6, Matthew 25:34-40, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:9, & Hebrews 4:3.

Thus, God is not guilty of an injustice. The sin is already fully judged, or paid in full, "tetelestai!" as Jesus said on the cross.

It's time to repent. The excuses are over. Surrender to Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and He will be your covering for you also.

 

[Moral Orel]

Why? This is what, the 2nd time (?) you've asserted this without explanation.

No, I explained it, you agreed it was unjust, but asserted it was not an injustice.