Fair enough, but I did look to Scripture in this case. The verse that everyone uses to condemn “fantasizing,” refers to 10th commandment covetousness. Which I find to have a different meaning than fantasizing.
I honestly believe that fantasy/masturbation are permitted/intended to help out the single believer. And I honestly believe that the God who gave some of His godliest people multiple wives, concubines, etc. for them to enjoy, doesn’t have a problem with His creation experiencing and enjoying sexual desire as He designed us to.
You claimed I was feeling guilty because of my conscience. I wasn’t…
Sorry, not sure what you mean by this.
I appreciate the warning. If I am in error I hope I see it. I have asked the Holy Spirit to show me, but I ended up coming upon the discovery about the true meaning of Matthew 5:27-28…
The thing is, I think mainstream Christianity has artificially made sexual desire “filthy.” Side-note, but I’m reading in the OT now and there is zero indication that God has any problem with people thinking about sex; in fact, godly people are having sex all over the place!
But see, my whole argument is that Matthew 5 doesn’t just refer to “fantasizing”; it refers to someone who is thinking “Man, she’s hot… I hope to seduce her.”
Why do I resist?? What do you mean? I have prayed extensively about this. Have gotten no conviction; in fact since praying about it all that’s happened is I’ve gotten more and more certain I’m right, because I’ve found more and more articles and people pointing out the misinterpretation. And what’s more, these are conservative Christians writing these articles! It’s not like it’s just some super-Progressive person trying to reeeally stretch the Bible by blatantly twisting Scripture; rather, these are well-thought-out arguments using Scripture itself as evidence. Thus, I don’t understand why it’s all being disregarded… Most of the comments here don’t even address the point, which is that we find out what Matthew 5 means by looking at the 10th commandment. Why?
Again, if covetousness is more intense than mere fantasy (and btw, I don’t even fantasize about people I know…), then that logic would never lead down a dangerous path.
Also, is enjoying food a sin? Is enjoying a back massage a sin? Is enjoying listening to music a sin? Taste, touch, hearing, etc.… These are all senses of “the flesh.” Why do people act like spending a few minutes every so often and thinking about sex, is so much worse than doing virtually anything else for many minutes/hours per day? I don’t get it. I believe it’s good to occasionally fast and take a break from anything, but I just don’t see why this one thing in particular is seen to be so bad.
Its late so I will answer this the best I can.
The problem is when WE decide what is good and bad when God has defined what is good and what is bad.
We are to do His will above our own. While it is NATURAL to desire and have lusts.... WHAT we do by nature is to do what is wrong. Because in the OT there was external rewards. One could NOT have the Holy Spirit INSIDE them, they could only have the Holy Spirit REST upon them. In the OT, humans had no choice in to sin or not to sin so there was a greater lenience as to what they could "get away with". They were in general obedient through physical means and were thus rewarded (or punished) by physical means.
I give X amount of my crop, livestock.... whatever to God. In my obedience, I receive physical abundance/wealth/health/etc.
When we moved into the NT Jesus gave us victory OVER sin.... but it is not a victory that we simply stumble into, it is a battle that as long as we fight, no matter if we get knocked down once... or one billion times...we will receive that victory, it is that we seek victory over the sin that God has called sin.... it is not what WE see it as but what HE sees it as. We are to judge ourselves honestly.....by the example He has provided for us..... not to use our logic to justify ourselves. Yes, fantasies are not in themselves wicked or evil, but the subject matter of that fantasy CAN be.... depending on the place it holds in our heart. Our hearts are wicked, mine, yours... all of our hearts seek to deceive us, for it is in their (our) nature to do so.
I do not claim you guilty or innocent, I simply see error.... again, you do not need to agree with me, but it is important that we all make sure that where we stand is not out of our conscience being seared and our heart being hardened in that particular area. For all of us have areas we are blind and others see clearly.
It could be that God has not spoken to you on this issue after your prayer, to test, do you follow after your heart, seeking the ways of the world, or do you use this to seek truth and ask Him to reveal the condition of your heart to you. You say you pray that IF you are in error that you will come to see it and in that I am thankful and pray you have revealed to you that which needs to be revealed. NOT that you will see ME as right, but see error in fantasizing that even IF it is accceptable, it has a far greater likelihood to cause trouble and pain than anything of true benefit.
For example, there are husbands and wives out there that spent their entire lives fantasizing about who they would end up marrying. Then they meet their husband or wife and they are nothing like that and to some extent, they resent them for not living up to their ideal fantasy.
As a man, I understand, as do many what it is to fantasize and lust after women. The problem ISN'T so much that we enjoy it, its our flesh, it is what it does, constantly battling our spirit. The problem comes when we deceive ourselves and in doing so, find ourselves in disagreement with God.
God says "X" is wrong. If I do "X", but I say its not what God calls it,.... I find myself opposing God.
If God says "X" is wrong and I do "X" but instead I call it as it is, wrong, but I seek Gods face in removing that from my life, it's place in my heart. Then I do not see what I do when I do "X" as "okay" I have then repented and TURNED from my ways and agree His ways are best not my own.
I can not offer God perfection, none of us can..... HOWEVER, I can offer honesty to God, He knows anyway. Me licking my wounds and saying "Im not as bad as another" is meaningless and is done to puff up my own ego rather than humble myself and see how desperately helpless I am on my own to do that which is right.
I said before that I highly disagree with mainstream Christianity and this is one reason why, many want to use Christ as and excuse to sin.... that no matter how many sins they willfully run to.... they are forgiven. While I do believe that God is INDEED merciful, He is both a Father AND a Judge.... if ALL we rest on is one side of Him we hold a false image of God and who Christ is. To focus on only Matthew or any verse of scripture alone is another dangerous trap, for the Bible in its entire context is vital to understanding not only who God is, but who we are IN Him.
I am not one that believes typical Christianity is to not be questioned..... in fact I believe it SHOULD be questioned and challenged...often.. especially mainstream, but it can be a slippery slope when we lean on logic too heavily. Yes, intellect is a gift, to be used, but to be used in the proper context and in the right way. Like the example of Jesus turning stones to bread..... a useful and great gift to have certainly, like intellect, logic and reason.... but it is IF those things could become a hindrance that we need step back, pray (as you say you have) check it against scripture and still seek in prayer some more, always with an open heart and ALWAYS judging the condition of our hearts..... and as I said I am glad that you are at least willing to be shown if you are in error THAT is truly all any of us can do.... for NONE of us have all the answers and none ever will, most certainly not while we are at war between our spirit and our flesh, always divided and pulled heavily towards the will of flesh.
We are all just trying to go in the direction we believe is right........ some of us are trying to figure out the bigger picture, while some are led astray by well meaning misguided individuals.... and then there are those that intentionally cherry pick scriptures to fit their narrative to lead others astray for personal gain.
I do believe I was wrong in stating you twist scripture to fit your narrative and for that I am sorry as I do not believe you to be one intentionally trying to lead people astray but rather, trying to work out your own walk with Christ, which is NOT a bad thing.... for ALL will not be led in the same way. Not all will be taught in the same manner, but ALL will be led to the same body. For a foot need not agree with a hand in how it is to operate... but left to the hand to follow the head and ONLY the head in how it is to go to achieve their purpose. In this case, the head is of course Christ. Though hands are not to tell a foot how they should be.... they can certainly warn of dangers that concern them both.... such as a hand reaching out to snatch a from a camp fire if the foot could not move itself or sense the danger it could be in. For we all have the same enemy.... and it is not eachother.
As for are movies, music, massages, food..... etc wrong/sinful?
That depends on the person and the place it holds in their life/heart.
For example: I love 80s music (I hated it in the 80s)
Is there anything wrong to me listening to 80s music? Well aside from some arguing bad taste...... no.
However, IF I abide in Christ and I in Him...... IF He dwells in me and He tells me "do not listen to this" but I ignore Him..... either my conscience can be seared to the point I do not feel guilt any longer when I listen to the music...... or... He will get tired of my disobedience and no longer dwell with me.
Entertainment, food and all the rest can be GOOD things, but IF they control and direct our lives...... or love them at an extreme where we hold ANY of these things above our desire of God.... they DO become wrong...... NOT because the object in itself is wrong and evil...... but because NOTHING or NO ONE should take first place in our heart...... IF they do, while to one person it is simply.... music, food etc.... to the one putting it before God..... has made it an idol.
What is good/acceptable for one, may be destruction for the other. We should hold all that we have, with gratitude, with love, but be willing to accept that some times the good Lord giveth, but also taketh away, especially if we cling too tightly to what it is we have,do, think, feel..... etc......instead of simply clinging to Him.
We need to be very careful where we are, is our conscience seared as to make us numb or is it really acceptable to Christ and that is why we feel no guilt is the question we must be sure of the answer. Not because we have no security in our salvation... but that we see to it that we do not NEGLECT our salvation.
I nor anyone else can truly answer this for you, it is an issue between you and God.... the best ANY of us can do is speculative at best.... in your theory I see far more potential for harm than good.... and as such, I just wanted to warn of such danger.... not as a man that sees all, but as a man that sees the speck in your eye, but finds it of far more value to deal with the plank in his own eye before judging the speck in yours....... but..... I would be risking my own conscience to see error and not try to get the person to seek their answer from God rather than logic..... again, not against logic, intellect or the rest.... just that the more we have..... or think we have.,... no matter the case, we need to be careful that we use the gift as a blessing, not let it run without a leash, out of control leading us to every whim of logic, making the gift a curse.
We need to be and seek to be changed into a likeness of Christ, which is hard, impossibly so in this life...... but we even in our failures should ALWAYS seek to be more like Christ, doing the will of the Father, to be made like Christ.... as man was BEFORE the fall of man, BEFORE Adam justified his actions.
IF we seek to be as Adam, we seek to follow that which is pleasing to the flesh..... and in doing we justify or redefine sin. (All of us by nature)
IF we seek to be like Christ..... we seek to follow the Holy Spirit, which..... more often than not......means suffering of the flesh by way of denial. We will absolutely fail......but it we must remain calling it as God sees it not as we see it.
Ask yourself IF you truly believe that Jesus would spend His time fantasizing about women..... He, as our example and our goal..... IF He wouldn't, then we too shouldn't. While that doesn't mean we wont, it doesn't mean we should be okay with falling short of His standard either, for it is because we CAN'T live up to His standard that we will ALWAYS need Him.... but we can deal with our failings honestly... for it is only when it is when we are honest with ourselves about our failings, that we can take those failings, lay them at His feet, repent and ask forgiveness humbly.
For it is only in our humility, that we can truly see our error and in humility truly know how pathetically hopeless and desperate we are without Him and our need for His mercy.
Sorry if this is rambling and hope it makes sense and helps in some way.
