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Creationists: Explain your understanding of microevolution and macroevolution

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Astrid

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People don't get to be university Professors by being fake Experts. Many Creation scientists are University Professors. Otherwise, I'm inclined to believe we agree - impossible expectations, misrepresentations, and logical fallacies. As for cherry-picking, that's a whole new thread.

We are going around in circles though so I'll sign out of this thread.

Tactical retreat...
Leaving out who these " professors" are,
what "university", and what "scirrce" it is they
supposedly do.
Omitting too, that while these professors may
profess to be doing "creation science" (oxymoron)
they none of them ever have found one freaking
fact contrary to ToE. Some science!
Almost like they are faking it for itching ears?

No fake professors? A noted faker of recent times was
the self styled "native American" of 911 / Little
Eichmans" fame. His fraudulent research among
other things did him in.
 
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Frank Robert

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People don't get to be university Professors by being fake Experts. Many Creation scientists are University Professors. Otherwise, I'm inclined to believe we agree - impossible expectations, misrepresentations, and logical fallacies. As for cherry-picking, that's a whole new thread.

We are going around in circles though so I'll sign out of this thread.
Perhaps "fake experts" is too strong, yet many of the well credentialed like Behe, fail do any research in the mechanisms of evolution which they are denying.
 
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Astrid

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Perhaps "fake experts" is too strong, yet many of the well credentialed like Behe, fail do any research in the mechanisms of evolution which they are denying.

Unsupportable claims based on an
unsupportable presupposition
seems like the realm of fakery to me.

But call it what one may, until someone actually can
deliver a fact contrary to ToE, we will hold that there
is no "there" there.
 
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Astrid

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It’s not ignorance but knowledge. The bone marrow remnants / blood cell components and other soft tissues that Mary Schweitzer found, allowing her to compare her dino with an ostrich and prove the dino was pregnant is an example.

When she presented her landmark work the entire evolutionary community rebelled on the basis it was impossible for these materials to survive that length of time. A few other paleontologists were sacked for reporting these finds.

No doubt the next post will no doubt recite the well-worn reasons and cliches why the complex molecules don’t disintegrate after all, even though such disintegration was well proven, to the extent that disintegration half-lives have been measured and determined. The just so stories get ever more far-fetched.

You may be aware that Ms Schweizer denounces
Creationists for their misrepresentation of her work.

As with the misrepresentation in your first paragraph!
It was not any soft tissue but bone that showed
the dinosaur was pregnant.
Falsehood number one.

Next: "evolutionary community rebelled". ( plus
your invented reason and clearly implied intellectual
dishonesty) Nonsense!
A dramatic new discovery is always to be met
with caution and calls for the most meticulous
confirmation. ([n science, that is; to a creationist,
the first hint was Proof of creationism. Like every
latest finding of Noah's ark)

Total falsehood:
"A few other paleontologists were sacked"
Note the double falsehood worked in with the word
"other".

Last paragraph is just trying to poison the well,
unworthy of the most worthless argument, unworthy
of response.

But withal, not a bad post, as an illustration of
how central falsehoods are to any creo-argument.
 
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AV1611VET

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A dramatic new discovery is always to be met
with caution and calls for the most meticulous confirmation.
Is that how we got Nebraska Man, Thalidomide, and the Marburg Virus?
 
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Frank Robert

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Is that how we got Nebraska Man, Thalidomide, and the Marburg Virus?

Are you complaining that science is often self correcting when accumulating or new evidence leads to a different direction?
 
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AV1611VET

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Are you complaining that science is often self correcting when accumulating or new evidence leads to a different direction?
In the examples I gave, I'm complaining that science leaps before it looks.

In the self-correcting department, science is known to rig a vote to get what it wanted; such as when Pluto got demoted. The fact that they even had to vote speaks for itself.
 
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Frank Robert

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In the examples I gave, I'm complaining that science leaps before it looks.

In the self-correcting department, science is known to rig a vote to get what it wanted; such as when Pluto got demoted. The fact that they even had to vote speaks for itself.
Thanks for confirming that you are complaining about sciences ability to self-correct as your examples clearly show the that science self corrected when additional evidence became available.

As I explained in a previous thread, Pluto was a category change based on three criteria, one of which Pluto did not meet and now any large body that does not meet the three criteria is now classed as a “dwarf planet.” It may be disappointing to some people that Pluto has been reclassified but it does show that our knowledge of the world around us is always changing.
 
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Shemjaza

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Is that how we got Nebraska Man, Thalidomide, and the Marburg Virus?
Nebraska Man was demonstrated to not be a human reminant by scientific research... it was a case of someone jumping to a conclusion with limited evidence. But it was poor evidence, not a dishonesty.

Thalidomide was a drug that was not sufficiently tested before going live. This is mainly an example of the evils of capitalism and greed not of science.

I fail to see how the Marburg Virus relates to your silly attacks on science. It's a hemorrhagic fever, related to Ebola, right? It wasn't totally contained and some people tragically died... I don't see that as some great gotcha for scientific research.
 
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Shemjaza

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It’s not ignorance but knowledge. The bone marrow remnants / blood cell components and other soft tissues that Mary Schweitzer found, allowing her to compare her dino with an ostrich and prove the dino was pregnant is an example.

When she presented her landmark work the entire evolutionary community rebelled on the basis it was impossible for these materials to survive that length of time. A few other paleontologists were sacked for reporting these finds.

No doubt the next post will no doubt recite the well-worn reasons and cliches why the complex molecules don’t disintegrate after all, even though such disintegration was well proven, to the extent that disintegration half-lives have been measured and determined. The just so stories get ever more far-fetched.
Lies. Disgusting.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
 
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AV1611VET

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Thanks for confirming that you are complaining about sciences ability to self-correct as your examples clearly show the that science self corrected when additional evidence became available.

As I explained in a previous thread, Pluto was a category change based on three criteria, one of which Pluto did not meet and now any large body that does not meet the three criteria is now classed as a “dwarf planet.” It may be disappointing to some people that Pluto has been reclassified but it does show that our knowledge of the world around us is always changing.
If the evidence was so convincing, why did they have to vote?

And what were they so afraid of, that they had to rig the vote?

You called it "science's ability to self-correct."

I'm not so sure a correction was needed.

QV please: The Pluto Issue (again)
 
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AV1611VET

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Frank Robert

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If the evidence was so convincing, why did they have to vote?
Isn't the strength of evidence up to the scientists to determine? Do expect all scientists to agree? If they did science would never progress.

And what were they so afraid of, that they had to rig the vote?
I don't know if they are afraid or not, do you have any way of confirming they are?

You called it "science's ability to self-correct."
I did not use Pluto as an example of science self correcting, I was simply pointing out that Pluto's status was a category change.

I'm not so sure a correction was needed.
Neither am I but neither am I a member of International Astronomical Union.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-pluto-issue-again.7749493/
The decision to reclassify Pluto was controversial, why would you expect it to go away?
 
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Frank Robert

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Your linked article is about health risks due to mistakes, mix ups and equipment failure. Do you have any evidence that such mishaps are greater science than mishaps in other industries?

Here is a sample:

An investigation showed that the gases were stored in a steel tank designed for compressed air that was not electrically grounded, thus making it susceptible to static electricity.

In late May of 2012, a freezer at the Harvard-affiliated McLean Hospital failed but did not set off any alarms alerting staff that the freezer was not functioning.

Undergraduate student Michele Dufault was killed when her ponytail got caught in a lathe in the Sterling Chemistry Laboratory machine shop.

Graduate student Preston Brown and a lab partner mixed up 10 g of what is believed to be nickel hydrazine perchlorate, despite being told by their professor to mix no more than 100 mg.

While 23 year old Sheri Sangji was working as a staff scientist in a UCLA chemistry lab, she was transferring the reagent tert-butyllithium (t-BuLi) using a plastic syringe. Tert-butyllithium ignites spontaneously when exposed to air.
 
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AV1611VET

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Your linked article is about health risks due to mistakes, mix ups and equipment failure.
My issue is with the Marburg Virus.

Estrid said:
A dramatic new discovery is always to be met
with caution and calls for the most meticulous confirmation.

The article in my link says:
In 1967, a pair of monkeys were being transported from Uganda to Germany for polio research. The monkeys were carrying a virus that had never been seen before. Soon over thirty lab workers had fallen ill with fever, diarrhea, vomiting and internal bleeding. Of these, nine would eventually die from their exposure to the disease. Because the disease had not been seen prior to the Marburg outbreak, it is now called the Marburg Virus. The virus is still active today, with the worst outbreak occurring in Angola in 2005, resulting in 252 cases with a 90% mortality rate.
So much for "caution and meticulous confirmation."

How much "caution" was used when a scientist left a window open and the killer bees got out?
 
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Frank Robert

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My issue is with the Marburg Virus.

Estrid said:

The article in my link says:So much for "caution and meticulous confirmation."

How much "caution" was used when a scientist left a window open and the killer bees got out?

It that case, not much. What is your point? If you are saying that at times scientists make regrettable mistakes through carelessness, no one will disagree with you. On the other hand if you are claiming that carelessness is rampant throughout the science fields then you need to make a much more convincing case.
 
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On the other hand if you are claiming that carelessness is rampant throughout the science fields then you need to make a much more convincing case.
You mean like the [not enough lifeboats] Titanic? [hydrogen-filled] Hindenburg? [ignore the warnings] Challenger? [waive the safety checks] Deepwater Horizon? [let's get this into production] Florida Footbridge? [it's safe to go back home] L'Aquila?
 
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Speedwell

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You mean like the [not enough lifeboats] Titanic? [hydrogen-filled] Hindenburg? [ignore the warnings] Challenger? [waive the safety checks] Deepwater Horizon? [let's get this into production] Florida Footbridge? [it's safe to go back home] L'Aquila?
None of those are science fails.
 
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Frank Robert

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You mean like the [not enough lifeboats] Titanic? [hydrogen-filled] Hindenburg? [ignore the warnings] Challenger? [waive the safety checks] Deepwater Horizon? [let's get this into production] Florida Footbridge? [it's safe to go back home] L'Aquila?
You are very good at complaining but not so good at supporting your complaints.
 
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