Should the church have a louder political voice?

[Confused-by-christianity]

I'm with you on this. I remember the whole "gay cake" absurdity. To me, that's the church being part of the problem, not the solution.

I just felt bad for the bloke who wanted his cake. I also thought that a big enough chunk of mainstream christianity in the west is just nasty. I became indifferent (not to God or Jesus).

 

[Hmm]

I just felt bad for the bloke who wanted his cake. I also thought that a big enough chunk of mainstream christianity in the west is just nasty. I became indifferent (not to God or Jesus).

Me too (with/without the hashtag!)

 

[Hammster]

I think the issue is when we conflate the church with God, and more specifically, King Jesus. Jesus left us His word, and His laws. These should form the basis for our laws as they are morally good. When we have gotten away from them, that’s when society has had its problems.

 

[Davy]

The archbishop of York, Stephen Cottrell, wrote in an article recently that Britain has learned to live with wrongs when it should be trying to change them and that it must reset its compass, from housing to wages:

“Our compass has slipped; we’ve allowed ourselves to believe that things can’t change, that this is just the way the world is. Politics has, I think, shrunk. There’s a loss of vision about what the world could be like.”

He argues that there shouId not be a separation between the church and politics or faith and politics or, for that matter, anything and politics:

"It’s about how we inhabit the world – and everybody and every organisation and every community has a voice and a stake.”

He said that the church should have a political voice because it's at the heart of what the calling of the church is:

"Loving your neighbour is a profoundly political statement... Is there anybody who doesn’t think that it’s a scandal that there are so many homeless people on our streets? But we’ve learned to live with it. We’ve learned to accommodate things that we know are wrong, which it would be possible to do something about… If we think it’s right that everyone should have health as a matter of right, regardless of ability to pay, shouldn’t it be the same for housing and possibly for a basic wage?”

Most people are finding life very tough at the moment to with Covid, politial divison and all the inequality that's around in almost every area of life. Do do you think that as a church we need to make Christianity more relevant to people's lives by giving a vision of hope through speaking out more on these issues and centring on loving your neighbour?

In the U.S. we don't have a king or queen, and our U.S. Constitution doesn't allow a king or queen, nor any one group or body to have absolute power. The 3 groups of U.S. government, the Legislative, Judicial, and Executive branches each have separate powers and act as checks and balances of each other.

The idea of separation of Church and state in the U.S. is a myth. There is no such statement written in the U.S. Constitution. What is written, is that "... Congress shall make no law respecting establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...".

The U.S. Capitol building in its early days was often used to hold Christian worship, and is evidenced even by oil paintings of that era of the founding fathers of the United States of America.

The chaos of today we were forewarned of by Lord Jesus in His Word. We are truly nearing the end of this present world, so this is not the time to think that this world can be turned around to exist forever or have true peace. Those in Christ should be welcoming the end of this world by the coming of Lord Jesus Christ, because Satan was given control of this present world time, and that's why things on earth today is how they are. Not understanding this difference with the world to come when Jesus returns is truly to be living in confusion, and not in the Faith.

 

[Halbhh]

Do do you think that as a church we need to make Christianity more relevant to people's lives by giving a vision of hope through speaking out more on these issues and centring on loving your neighbour?

Yes!

And ideally that's not secular political stuff -- not getting caught up in worldly politics past a very limited role of helping those that seek wisdom.

What's good is for the Church to go out and speak to people first hand as much as possible, and doing charity first hand, the Church itself (as so many have).

 

[Halbhh]

The archbishop of York, Stephen Cottrell, wrote in an article recently that Britain has learned to live with wrongs when it should be trying to change them and that it must reset its compass, from housing to wages:

“Our compass has slipped; we’ve allowed ourselves to believe that things can’t change, that this is just the way the world is. Politics has, I think, shrunk. There’s a loss of vision about what the world could be like.”

He argues that there shouId not be a separation between the church and politics or faith and politics or, for that matter, anything and politics:

"It’s about how we inhabit the world – and everybody and every organisation and every community has a voice and a stake.”

He said that the church should have a political voice because it's at the heart of what the calling of the church is:

"Loving your neighbour is a profoundly political statement... Is there anybody who doesn’t think that it’s a scandal that there are so many homeless people on our streets? But we’ve learned to live with it. We’ve learned to accommodate things that we know are wrong, which it would be possible to do something about… If we think it’s right that everyone should have health as a matter of right, regardless of ability to pay, shouldn’t it be the same for housing and possibly for a basic wage?”

Most people are finding life very tough at the moment to with Covid, politial divison and all the inequality that's around in almost every area of life. Do do you think that as a church we need to make Christianity more relevant to people's lives by giving a vision of hope through speaking out more on these issues and centring on loving your neighbour?

Churches are very diverse in their attitudes. Some churches do need to come out of their building and help in the community (those that are not already doing so).

We don't want the Church to lose its way by becoming a political party or lobby group -- witness the unChristian harmful outcome in America with a portion of 'evangelicals' endorsing in the end finally non-Christian political stuff -- it is good in contrast for a church to talk about what is right and good in a true way, to be a light in the world. This is very different from getting caught up in worldly political power struggles. Basically, a church does well if it follows Christ's teachings.

 

[Davy]

it's too late today to think Christ's Church is not already... caught up in the political. And it's vanity to think those in Christ don't have a say in politics of the nations. This is the very problem the children of darkness have been creating against Christ in our times, trying to muzzle those in Christ from speaking God's Truth anywhere public except in a Church building, and even then trying to muzzle the pulpit on exposing evil leaders running for office! Christ's Church DOES NOT have to play by those kind of rules! Those who allow those muzzles definitely do not know what the U.S. founders were about, and need to read their writings more, because they certainly would not stand for those muzzles by Satan's host, not in the courts, not in public speaking, and not in the schools nor in the government.

 

[Halbhh]

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

No one can muzzle a Christian, because we have eternal life. When we die here, we gain heaven.

We should not be afraid to say the actual Words of Christ (so very very different than mere political talking points of the world, and vastly more powerful).

it's too late today to think Christ's Church is not already... caught up in the political. And it's vanity to think those in Christ don't have a say in politics of the nations. This is the very problem the children of darkness have been creating against Christ in our times, trying to muzzle those in Christ from speaking God's Truth anywhere public except in a Church building, and even then trying to muzzle the pulpit on exposing evil leaders running for office! Christ's Church DOES NOT have to play by those kind of rules! Those who allow those muzzles definitely do not know what the U.S. founders were about, and need to read their writings more, because they certainly would not stand for those muzzles by Satan's host, not in the courts, not in public speaking, and not in the schools nor in the government.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If you surrender your ability participate in the public sphere you leave it in the hands of your enemies. That is, the secular only, their interests begin to take hold. Hence it's the worst mistake of the Church to not be political since the Church has a stake in society and must secure it's place in it. Politics are not an illegitimate means of the Church seeking to secure it's position in society.

If we accept minorities and any non-religious interest groups have the right and ability to secure their own political ends and yet refuse to participate ourselves for the interests of Christianity, will we then be surprised at the marginalization Christianity has in society? That society no longer reflects Christian norms on even the most basic things, like marriage? Holy days and other even small points?

Americans in particular need to get over their reservations with this and look to an older Christian political standard. The Church never stayed out of political concerns for the majority of it's history and it was to the benefit of the Church that it didn't. Christianity as a result flourished in such a system, now, when Christianity stays our of politics, out of society we see only the advance of the secular and commercial.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I think the church should refocus on getting people to seek God for themselves, not telling people whats right and wrong and who's good and who's bad.

Facilitate prayer, singing, and friendships. That would create hope.

This would only serve to marginalize Christianity and make it a public non-entity.

 

[Halbhh]

If you surrender your ability participate in the public sphere you leave it in the hands of your enemies. That is, the secular only and their interests begin to take hold. Hence it's the worst mistake of the Church to not be political since the Church has a stake in society and must secure it's place in it. Politics are not an illegitimate means of the Church seeking to secure it's position in society.

If we accept minorities and any non-religious interest groups have the right and ability to secure their own political ends and yet refuse to participate ourselves for the interests of Christianity, will we then be surprised at the marginalization Christianity has in society? That society no longer reflects Christian norms on even the most basic things, like marriage? Holy days and other even small points?

Americans in particular need to get over their reservations with this and look to an older Christian political standard. The Church never stayed out of political concerns for the majority of it's history and it was to the benefit of the Church that it didn't. Christianity as a result flourished in such a system, now, when Christianity stays our of politics, out of society we see only the advance of the secular and commercial.

This world is perishing. But salvation is for each person, individually -- when an individual person listens and hears the saving Gospel, the good news, the Word of Christ, and turns in faith to Him for the forgiveness of their sin. (faith comes from the Word of Christ: Romans 10:17 if I recall)

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

This world is perishing. And salvation is only ever individual: that an individual person listens and hear the saving Gospel, the good news, the Word of Christ. (Romans 10:17 if I recall)

Therefore Christian's don't have a responsibility to the world or society in general?

 

[Halbhh]

Therefore Christian's don't have a responsibility to the world or society in general?

Yes! To tell the gospel to the lost, everywhere we can. (and charity towards our neighbor: as Christ said to us, to go and do likewise as the good samaritan did.)

If we want a better nation, we should look to help convert more to Christ, in truth.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Yes! To tell the gospel to the lost, everywhere we can. And as Christ said to us, to go and do likewise as the good samaritan did.

If we want a better nation, we should look to help convert more to Christ, in truth.

Why can't we do both? Has separating Christianity from politics resulted in more or less people becoming Christian?

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

This would only serve to marginalize Christianity and make it a public non-entity.

I dont think so

 

[Halbhh]

Why can't we do both? Has separating Christianity from politics resulted in more or less people becoming Christian?

More, evidently. America has been more Christian than Europe where there are official state churches.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

More, evidently. America has been more Christian than Europe where there are official state churches.

Europe is run by the same liberal spirit of the USA. The recognition of Churches doesn't mean much when those Churches feel compelled by a spirit of secularization to not participate in the political process, at least when it comes to challenging the status quo and dominance of liberalism. The Church of England, despite being the official Church of England, ceased to have real political power a long time ago. What are the results for England? Increased secularization and commercialization with no one actually challenging the system from a Christian political perspective. State Churches of Europe are a relic, they will probably be done away with as less and less people identify as Christian. That or get replaced with Mosques, Alhamdulillah (sarcasm).

As to the USA. We're seeing where the liberal spirit and doctrines of the USA are taking it. Christianity will only continue to decline in the USA as more and more it is removed from the public sphere. Christian Doctors will probably soon be forced to perform or recommend trans surgery and perform abortions. Just like with gay marriage and banning prayer in public schools. These actions have impact on society and to pretend that Christianity being more removed from those sorts of public expressions will benefit the Church is delusional.

 

[Albion]

Those are worthwhile points, but it remains true that the United States has been and still remains more religious without a state church than many European nations which have a state church.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Those are worthwhile points, but it remains true that the United States has been and still remains more religious without a state church than many European nations which have a state church.

There's something to be said for that it held on to a largely Protestant notion of itself for a long time. Yet this has been whittled down decade by decade. Can it rightfully be argued that if the USA continues along it's current trajectory that it will continue to remain a Christian majority country? I don't think so and part of the reason (not the only one) is how the law in the USA is being interpreted to tolerate things which were largely not tolerated in the past. Liberality or Libertinism is the spirit of the USA today. Not just the USA but the whole western world mind you.

At least the Amish and Orthodox Jews will still be around in the future I guess.

 

[Albion]

There's something to be said for that it held on to a largely Protestant notion of itself for a long time.

Maybe so, although the Roman Catholic Church is by far the largest denomination in the USA.

Yet this has been whittled down decade by decade.

Well, sure. In addition to increased immigration from non-Christian populations, the USA has grown steadily less religious along with Western Europe, Canada, and elsewhere in the West.

My point was just that if the USA and Europe are to be compared, state churches appear not to have done well at keeping the society religious.