Purgatory

[concretecamper]

The 'bottom line' when it comes to Scripture is that nothing even approaching the nature and function of Purgatory as the Church that invented Purgatory defined it is to be found in the Bible, the Apocrypha included.

you are free to reject 1Cor 3 and its description of purging. That is your choice. But dont blame the vast majority of Christians for not following your follies.

 

[concretecamper]

Trinity = 3 = "plurality!

adding to scripture I see, what a surprise

 

[concretecamper]

2 Timothy 4:3-4...........
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Luther, White, Henry VIII, Smith, Pastor Bolly Bob, etc., etc., etc. All astounding theologians

 

[BNR32FAN]

you are free to reject 1Cor 3 and its description of purging. That is your choice. But dont blame the vast majority of Christians for not following your follies.

Well I don’t reject the idea that we may undergo a purging of our sinful nature but I do reject the idea that purgatory is for the atonement of sins which is what the doctrine teaches according to the catechism.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Luther, White, Henry VIII, Smith, Pastor Bolly Bob, etc., etc., etc. All astounding theologians

And all incorrect I would add.

 

[BNR32FAN]

adding to scripture I see, what a surprise

Are you refuting the Trinity?

 

[concretecamper]

And all incorrect I would add.

I agree, IMO all horrible theologians.

 

[concretecamper]

Are you refuting the Trinity?

no, just saying it is impossible to define the doctrine of the Trinity using Scripture Alone, that is unless you define plurality as 3

 

[concretecamper]

Well I don’t reject the idea that we may undergo a purging of our sinful nature but I do reject the idea that purgatory is for the atonement of sins which is what the doctrine teaches according to the catechism.

what portion of the Catechism are you referring to?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I agree, IMO all horrible theologians.

Yes I had a person tell me I was wrong about eternal security and he knew better than me because he attended a seminary college, then I pointed out that there’s a seminary college for every denomination out there so that really doesn’t hold much weight.

 

[BNR32FAN]

what portion of the Catechism are you referring to?

1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"


1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"

 

[BNR32FAN]

no, just saying it is impossible to define the doctrine of the Trinity using Scripture Alone, that is unless you define plurality as 3

I would disagree. The doctrine of the Trinity is soundly supported by the scriptures alone.

 

[concretecamper]

I would disagree. The doctrine of the Trinity is soundly supported by the scriptures alone.

No one on this forum has come close.

 

[concretecamper]

I do reject the idea that purgatory is for the atonement of sins

1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"


1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"

I'm sorry, but I missed the word "ATTONEMENT". You've made a common mistake and let your own preconceived ideas influence what you think the Church teaches. I figured that was the case which is why I asked about the Catechism.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No one on this forum has come close.

Really? It’s not hard at all.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Who is the Word?

“And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:13-17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

From these verses we can conclude that the Word is Co-Creator, He is Himself God, He is God’s only begotten Son, He is Jesus Christ.

Now for the Holy Spirit

“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:16-17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Father will send the Holy Spirit who is not The Father Himself nor is He Jesus. The Holy Spirit is both separate from The Father and Jesus.

“But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭5:3-4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

By Ananias lying to the Holy Spirit he has lied to God, hence the Holy Spirit is God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm sorry, but I missed the word "ATTONEMENT". You've made a common mistake and let your own preconceived ideas influence what you think the Church teaches. I figured that was the case which is why I asked about the Catechism.

What do you think the word “forgiveness” means?

 

[concretecamper]

What do you think the word “forgiveness” means?

if you would like to make a point, please do so.

Really? It’s not hard at all.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Who is the Word?

“And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:13-17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

From these verses we can conclude that the Word is Co-Creator, He is Himself God, He is God’s only begotten Son, He is Jesus Christ.

Now for the Holy Spirit

“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:16-17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Father will send the Holy Spirit who is not The Father Himself nor is He Jesus. The Holy Spirit is both separate from The Father and Jesus.

“But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭5:3-4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

By Ananias lying to the Holy Spirit he has lied to God, hence the Holy Spirit is God.

this by no means completely explains the Athanasius Creed (which most Christians accept).

 

[BNR32FAN]

if you would like to make a point, please do so.
this by no means completely explains the Athanasius Creed (which most Christians accept).

The doctrine of purgatory teaches that purgatory is for the forgiveness of sin aka reconciliation after death which is the same thing as atonement for sin.

We weren’t talking about the Athanasian Creed we were talking about supporting the doctrine of the Trinity based on the scriptures alone which I did.

 

[concretecamper]

The doctrine of purgatory teaches that purgatory is for the forgiveness of sin aka reconciliation after death which is the same thing as atonement for sin.

no it does not. The section of the Catechism you quotes is pretty clear.

We weren’t talking about the Athanasian Creed we were talking about supporting the doctrine of the Trinity based on the scriptures alone which I did.

The Doctrine of the Trinity is best summed up by the Athanasius Creed.

The best you did was show 3 operations, persons, manifestations, etc. You by no means proved the "Doctrine" of the Trinity.

 

[BNR32FAN]

no it does not. The section of the Catechism you quotes is pretty clear.
The Doctrine of the Trinity is best summed up by the Athanasius Creed.

The best you did was show 3 operations, persons, manifestations, etc. You by no means proved the "Doctrine" of the Trinity.

If you can’t even be truthful then I’m not interested in discussing anything with you