Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[Ken-1122]

Then by definition, their reasons not to are stronger. Let’s fix that.

This is where we disagree; the people whose actions are causing the problem need to change their actions in a way to end the problem

Clearly not, if you believe they remain loyal to their muggers more reliably than to their police. People will always be more loyal to those who exert more influence over their everyday life, or “those they come home to.” If it’s thugs running the streets and not the police, that’s a problem that can’t be solved by asking individuals to behave as though that’s not the case. You’ll get people killed that way.

They have bought into a culture that says the police are not to be trusted or worked with, and that culture is getting them killed everyday. Heart disease is the #1 killer of every demographic in the US except black men. For black men the #1 killer is homicide; and the vast majority of those homicides are black on black crime. There is nothing preventing them from discretely recording criminal activity and sending it to the Police, except their culture of not cooperating with the police.

I’m not talking about opening more coffee shops and wal-marts. I’m talking about subsidizing higher education, improving k-12 education, improving the quality of public utilities, raising the minimum wage, lowering the interest on small business loans, overhauling the criminal justice system, etc etc etc. Investing in impoverished communities doesn’t mean inviting capitalist investors, it means improving their environment by giving them better public resources.

People living in the community don’t have complete control over those things; but they do have complete control over their actions.

Law abiding citizens already dislike the criminal element. You have to ease the economic pressure that makes crime an attractive option in the first place. Eliminate the problem at the root.

And who has control over that? Most of your ideas seem to involve the cooperation of big government, something the small guy has no control over. A solution out of reach is equal for no solution at all.

 

[gaara4158]

This is where we disagree; the people whose actions are causing the problem need to change their actions in a way to end the problem

If you’re seriously interested in how that might realistically come to pass, you’ll have to agree to examine the steps we can take, as a society, to make it so. Otherwise you’re just uselessly complaining.

They have bought into a culture that says the police are not to be trusted or worked with, and that culture is getting them killed everyday. Heart disease is the #1 killer of every demographic in the US except black men. For black men the #1 killer is homicide; and the vast majority of those homicides are black on black crime. There is nothing preventing them from discretely recording criminal activity and sending it to the Police, except their culture of not cooperating with the police.

The culture of not working with police comes from the failure of police to earn the trust of these communities. It seems patrolling the streets mean-mugging pedestrians and harassing loiterers hasn’t done much to cultivate a culture of trust between police and citizens. Go figure. Let’s fix that, then we can talk about fostering a culture of cooperation. I happen to agree that a vigilant community is a safe community, but that’s not going to happen if the cops are sent there with a goal of producing a criminal citation with every encounter.

People living in the community don’t have complete control over those things; but they do have complete control over their actions.

No one has complete control over their own actions. But state and local governments do have control over what budgetary resources are allotted to the public programs I mentioned above which have an enormous influence on public behavior. So we should make improvements. You’re not going to be able to escape this conclusion without completely denying reality.

And who has control over that? Most of your ideas seem to involve the cooperation of big government, something the small guy has no control over. A solution out of reach is equal for no solution at all.

Government doesn’t need to be big to help impoverished communities. It just needs to be recalibrated to serve real people and communities rather than the profits of big corporations and billionaires. Arguably, this would make the government smaller by breaking up the tyrannical entity created by big business and the government feeding into each other’s needs.

 

[Ken-1122]

If you’re seriously interested in how that might realistically come to pass, you’ll have to agree to examine the steps we can take, as a society, to make it so. Otherwise you’re just uselessly complaining.

I have no delusions that I can change the entirety of society by myself in a way I find preferable, that’s why I keep saying it has to be done on an individual level; one person at a time.
I am a black male. Demographically, black males are more likely to die via homicide than heart disease like all the other demographics. This is due to the culture many black men adopt. I as an individual have refused to adopt this culture so even though my demographic is more likely to die of homicide, I as an individual is more likely to die of heart disease like everyone else. I also don’t have distrust of the police, I never fear being followed in stores, I don’t feel oppressed, discriminated against, or like any type of a victim of a racist society. I don’t use the N-word, my friends who may use it know not to use it around me, and I don’t support artists that use the word in their art.
This is what I do. I have no control what someone else does, but I am saying more black men need to do what I do. Again this is something IMO can be done at the individual level.

The culture of not working with police comes from the failure of police to earn the trust of these communities. It seems patrolling the streets mean-mugging pedestrians and harassing loiterers hasn’t done much to cultivate a culture of trust between police and citizens. Go figure. Let’s fix that, then we can talk about fostering a culture of cooperation. I happen to agree that a vigilant community is a safe community, but that’s not going to happen if the cops are sent there with a goal of producing a criminal citation with every encounter.

Obviously a cop who has to patrol a neighborhood where his life is in more danger is going to have a different attitude than the cop who patrols a safer neighborhood. I doubt much can be done to change that other than; make the neighborhood safer.

No one has complete control over their own actions.

Name an action you are capable of that you do not have complete control over.

But state and local governments do have control over what budgetary resources are allotted to the public programs I mentioned above which have an enormous influence on public behavior. So we should make improvements. You’re not going to be able to escape this conclusion without completely denying reality.

If you gonna wait for the State and local Governments and budgetary resources to fix the problem, it will never get fixed.

Government doesn’t need to be big to help impoverished communities. It just needs to be recalibrated to serve real people and communities rather than the profits of big corporations and billionaires. Arguably, this would make the government smaller by breaking up the tyrannical entity created by big business and the government feeding into each other’s needs.

To do one does not prevent the other; again we can do both

 

[gaara4158]

I have no delusions that I can change the entirety of society by myself in a way I find preferable, that’s why I keep saying it has to be done on an individual level; one person at a time.

You’re an individual. You are the person who needs to take action. Specifically, you need to start supporting politicians who support the policy reforms that will actually make it more likely that the people in these street communities will adopt the behaviors we want to see.

This is what I do. I have no control what someone else does, but I am saying more black men need to do what I do. Again this is something IMO can be done at the individual level.

If you want an individual to change their behavior, you counsel them. If you want a group to change its behavior, you enact public policy. Your focus on individual initiative is a very transparent effort to defer the problem to someone else. Very “not my brother’s keeper” of you.

Obviously a cop who has to patrol a neighborhood where his life is in more danger is going to have a different attitude than the cop who patrols a safer neighborhood. I doubt much can be done to change that other than; make the neighborhood safer.

The neighborhood would be safer if it had fewer economically desperate inhabitants, better public resources, and better policing. The police would have a better relationship with the public if they were on call rather than on patrol.

Name an action you are capable of that you do not have complete control over.

All actions are influenced by outside factors. For example, I would not be typing this out if you hadn’t responded to me.

If you gonna wait for the State and local Governments and budgetary resources to fix the problem, it will never get fixed.

If you gonna wait for individuals to wake up and fix themselves, they never gonna get fixed. No, your pessimistic attitude is neither helpful nor realistic. State and local governments are responsible for the budgets, so it is indeed they who need to make the necessary changes. You can help speed this along by voting for politicians who understand this reality.

To do one does not prevent the other; again we can do both

By doing my suggestions we can accomplish both. As long as you keep denying that, I’m going to have to conclude that you don’t actually care about these people. You just want to keep them down so you can look down on someone.

 

[Ken-1122]

You’re an individual. You are the person who needs to take action. Specifically, you need to start supporting politicians who support the policy reforms that will actually make it more likely that the people in these street communities will adopt the behaviors we want to see.

How do you know I don’t already do that?

If you want an individual to change their behavior, you counsel them. If you want a group to change its behavior, you enact public policy.

Give an example of a public policy that prevents young black boys with books from being accused of acting white. Give an example of a public policy that prevents black people who speak proper English from being accused of talking white.

The police would have a better relationship with the public if they were on call rather than on patrol.

What's the difference?

All actions are influenced by outside factors. For example, I would not be typing this out if you hadn’t responded to me.

Just because you might be influenced does not mean you don’t have control

If you gonna wait for individuals to wake up and fix themselves, they never gonna get fixed.

Some people are already fixing themselves. That’s the good thing about personal responsibility, you don’t need everybody to do it in order to see a change. Even if it’s a small change, it’s better than nothing. The problem with trying to do it via voting, if your guy doesn't win, you've accomplished nothing

By doing my suggestions we can accomplish both.

Looks like we finally agree on something

 

[gaara4158]

How do you know I don’t already do that?

You’re a conservative.

Give an example of a public policy that prevents young black boys with books from being accused of acting white. Give an example of a public policy that prevents black people who speak proper English from being accused of talking white.

Better educational resources and economic opportunities in black communities. If being educated and speaking professionally is seen as “white,” it’s because black people have historically not had the same opportunities or incentives to learn as white people. The cycle must be broken, and it starts with — you guessed it — material conditions.

What's the difference?

Working for the community vs. harassing them.

Just because you might be influenced does not mean you don’t have control

The free will debate is a complex philosophical concern that hasn’t been solved. It’s a mistake to base public policy on the assumption that it has. Best look at the data and see what works and what doesn’t, rather than insisting people can change if they just decide to.

Some people are already fixing themselves. That’s the good thing about personal responsibility, you don’t need everybody to do it in order to see a change. Even if it’s a small change, it’s better than nothing. The problem with trying to do it via voting, if your guy doesn't win, you've accomplished nothing

Clearly not enough people, if you’re still complaining about them. Sure, voting doesn’t help when you lose, but neither does sitting home and insisting it’s not your problem. At least voting has a mechanism by which it can succeed.

Looks like we finally agree on something

Then quit with this insistence that individuals are the only agents.

 

[Ken-1122]

You’re a conservative.

And as a conservative I vote for the politician that enacts the policies I believe will fix the problem

Better educational resources and economic opportunities in black communities. If being educated and speaking professionally is seen as “white,” it’s because black people have historically not had the same opportunities or incentives to learn as white people. The cycle must be broken, and it starts with — you guessed it — material conditions.

Education has nothing to do with it. Do you really think the poor white kids in the Appalachia are harassed by their peers for reading books? C'mon!

The free will debate is a complex philosophical concern that hasn’t been solved.

Just because it hasn't been solved in your eyes doesn't mean it hasn't been solved.

Clearly not enough people, if you’re still complaining about them.

I won't be satisfied till we get 100%, that doesn't mean I don't recognize a drop in the bucket is better than nothing at all!

Then quit with this insistence that individuals are the only agents.

YOU are the one insisting your way or the hi way; remember? I've never said my way is the only way, I just said my way needs to be done.

 

[gaara4158]

And as a conservative I vote for the politician that enacts the policies I believe will fix the problem

You’ve agreed with me that allocating better and more public resources to poor communities would help. What conservative would enact those policies?

Education has nothing to do with it. Do you really think the poor white kids in the Appalachia are harassed by their peers for reading books? C'mon!

Good education is seen as “white” in poor black communities because black people don’t have access to it. Change that, and suddenly education isn’t so “white” anymore. This is not difficult to figure out.

Just because it hasn't been solved in your eyes doesn't mean it hasn't been solved.

No philosopher will tell you that the question of free will has been settled. In any case, it doesn’t matter, because you already conceded that outside factors can influence your behavior, so if we control the outside factors shared by poor communities, we can better influence their decision-making toward what we want. Marketing departments have known this for centuries.

I won't be satisfied till we get 100%, that doesn't mean I don't recognize a drop in the bucket is better than nothing at all!

Then why are you kicking and screaming against public reforms? You keep saying you agree that public reforms would help but everything I bring up that demonstrably works, you imply is superseded by toxic culture and wouldn’t work.

YOU are the one insisting your way or the hi way; remember? I've never said my way is the only way, I just said my way needs to be done.

Your way is a magical neo-enlightenment of black communities rejecting the old ways and embracing family values, work ethic, and mutual aid. My way leads to the same thing, but instead of magic it uses social programs.

 

[Ken-1122]

You’ve agreed with me that allocating better and more public resources to poor communities would help. What conservative would enact those policies?

I don’t know about whatever communities you are talking about, to judge whether more resources, better resources, both or neither is what is needed so I am not in a position to agree nor disagree with you on that issue. Don’t assume that because I don’t object to what you are saying that I am in agreement with you.

Good education is seen as “white” in poor black communities because black people don’t have access to it. Change that, and suddenly education isn’t so “white” anymore. This is not difficult to figure out.

I’m not talking about good education or bad education, I’m talking about a child that likes to read, or who likes math, being discouraged from doing it by their peers. This has nothing to do with funding, and everything to do with culture.

No philosopher will tell you that the question of free will has been settled.

I'm not talking about a philosopher, I'm talking to you. Your philosopher isn't here to defend his position.

In any case, it doesn’t matter, because you already conceded that outside factors can influence your behavior, so if we control the outside factors shared by poor communities, we can better influence their decision-making toward what we want.

Inside factors influence as well.

Then why are you kicking and screaming against public reforms? You keep saying you agree that public reforms would help but everything I bring up that demonstrably works, you imply is superseded by toxic culture and wouldn’t work.

I would caution against making blanket claims like “public reforms will fix everything” because how do you know? Do you know what goes on in every community? Every community has a different budget, and a different way of getting things done, so how do you know which reforms are needed concerning the communities you know nothing about? You might say “X” is needed, but how do you know “X” isn’t already being done? I can understand if you said (for example) the “Fairfax area” of Oakland Ca needs “X” done, then I would assume you know something about the budging process of that community, but to say every economically oppressed neighborhood needs budging reform, (especially when you neglect to articulate exactly which reforms need to be taken place) sounds like you're kinda painting a very small picture with a very broad brush.

 

[gaara4158]

I don’t know about whatever communities you are talking about, to judge whether more resources, better resources, both or neither is what is needed so I am not in a position to agree nor disagree with you on that issue. Don’t assume that because I don’t object to what you are saying that I am in agreement with you.

We’re speaking very broadly about the black, poor communities in America full of the kind of culture you’ve been complaining about. Each will have its own idiosyncratic problems, but the source of culture is always material conditions, which can always be improved. If you don’t know what communities we’re talking about, how do you know you’d vote conservative to help solve their problems?

I’m not talking about good education or bad education, I’m talking about a child that likes to read, or who likes math, being discouraged from doing it by their peers. This has nothing to do with funding, and everything to do with culture.

I’m talking about that very culture of associating education with whiteness coming from very different material conditions — to include quality of education and economic opportunities — between white and black communities. It has everything to do with funding.

I'm not talking about a philosopher, I'm talking to you. Your philosopher isn't here to defend his position.

I defer to philosophers on matters of philosophy. Do you presume to expect we can solve an ancient dilemma that’s stumped academics for millennia here, today, between us?

Inside factors influence as well.

We can’t do anything about those except make the outside influences more apt to work together with inside influences resulting in better decisions.

I would caution against making blanket claims like “public reforms will fix everything” because how do you know? Do you know what goes on in every community? Every community has a different budget, and a different way of getting things done, so how do you know which reforms are needed concerning the communities you know nothing about? You might say “X” is needed, but how do you know “X” isn’t already being done? I can understand if you said (for example) the “Fairfax area” of Oakland Ca needs “X” done, then I would assume you know something about the budging process of that community, but to say every economically oppressed neighborhood needs budging reform, (especially when you neglect to articulate exactly which reforms need to be taken place) sounds like you're kinda painting a very small picture with a very broad brush.

I cannot take this seriously when your refrain this entire time has simply been “black people need to change their own culture.” You haven’t been nearly as specific with your prescriptions as you’re asking me to be. As I said above, each poor community has its own specific problems causing them to lag behind wealthier communities that will each take a specific approach to solve, but they’re all problems that start with too many people struggling to have their basic needs met.

 

[Ken-1122]

We’re speaking very broadly about the black, poor communities in America full of the kind of culture you’ve been complaining about. Each will have its own idiosyncratic problems, but the source of culture is always material conditions, which can always be improved.

This problem isn’t just something that exists in poor black neighborhoods, there are plenty of black kids whose parents have money who are attracted to this type of culture as well

I’m talking about that very culture of associating education with whiteness coming from very different material conditions — to include quality of education and economic opportunities — between white and black communities. It has everything to do with funding.

If that were the case, black kids that go to majority white schools that are well funded wouldn’t have this problem, yet the problem exist there too.

I defer to philosophers on matters of philosophy. Do you presume to expect we can solve an ancient dilemma that’s stumped academics for millennia here, today, between us?

For me the problem has already been solved.

I cannot take this seriously when your refrain this entire time has simply been “black people need to change their own culture.”

No, the black people involved in the culture need to change it. I never suggested all black people are a part of this culture.

You haven’t been nearly as specific with your prescriptions as you’re asking me to be.

I specifically mentioned many of the things that need to change.

As I said above, each poor community has its own specific problems causing them to lag behind wealthier communities that will each take a specific approach to solve, but they’re all problems that start with too many people struggling to have their basic needs met.

As I said before, it exists in places where money is not an issue also. It might not be as much of a problem for them because their parents have money, but the culture is still there.

 

[gaara4158]

This problem isn’t just something that exists in poor black neighborhoods, there are plenty of black kids whose parents have money who are attracted to this type of culture as well

Attracted, perhaps, but not kept down by it.

If that were the case, black kids that go to majority white schools that are well funded wouldn’t have this problem, yet the problem exist there too.

The strongest correlates in the educational achievement gap are socioeconomic factors, which include but are not limited to the funding available to the schools the students attend. If you want to learn more, the Wikipedia article on this subject is a great jumping off point, and it echoes what I’ve been saying. Racial achievement gap in the United States - Wikipedia

For me the problem has already been solved.

Statistics are objective, so unless you’re not worried about anyone but yourself, the problem persists.

No, the black people involved in the culture need to change it. I never suggested all black people are a part of this culture.

That’s a useless suggestion if you don’t have a plan for how that’s supposed to happen.

I specifically mentioned many of the things that need to change.

You talked about frivolous sex, stigmatizing education, and no snitching. You didn’t mention a single city, statistical figure, or public policy in place. Yet you ask all of that of me.

As I said before, it exists in places where money is not an issue also. It might not be as much of a problem for them because their parents have money, but the culture is still there.

You just conceded the debate.

 

[Ken-1122]

Attracted, perhaps, but not kept down by it.

Yes! So your claim that the source of this destructive culture is material conditions is false.

The strongest correlates in the educational achievement gap are socioeconomic factors, which include but are not limited to the funding available to the schools the students attend.

I’m not talking about the educational achievement gap, I’m talking about the culture that criticizes educational achievement.
Also; Washington DC has one of the worse schooling in the nation, yet they spend nearly twice the national average per student; one of the highest in the country.
High Public School Spending in DC Hasn’t Produced Desired Outcomes
Explain that.

That’s a useless suggestion if you don’t have a plan for how that’s supposed to happen.

It doesn’t require a plan to quit using the N-word in reference to black people, it doesn’t take a plan to quit shaming black kids interested in learning and that speak proper english, it doesn’t take a plan to stop glamorizing thug life, it doesn’t take a plan to stop bad behavior, all it takes is the understanding a change is needed, and a desire to make that change in yourself.

You talked about frivolous sex, stigmatizing education, and no snitching. You didn’t mention a single city, statistical figure, or public policy in place. Yet you ask all of that of me.

That’s because your idea involves changing a system that is already in place, my idea involves changing the people involved is specific behaviors.
In order for your ideas to be legitimately implemented, you need to know which systems you desire to change, and why your ideas are better than the systems already in place.
To simply claim all failing schools need more funding and systemic reforms says nothing unless you know how much and how the money is being spent, why more is necessary, and the exact reforms that need to take place. In order to accomplish this you need to know something about the schools you speak of.

You just conceded the debate.

No, I’ve disproven your claim that a lack of money is the problem

 

[gaara4158]

Yes! So your claim that the source of this destructive culture is material conditions is false.

No, the opposite. Your claim that it’s all about the culture is false, and it’s all about material conditions is true, since those living under better conditions are not kept down by the culture that pervades elsewhere, attractive as it may be.

I’m not talking about the educational achievement gap, I’m talking about the culture that criticizes educational achievement.
Also; Washington DC has one of the worse schooling in the nation, yet they spend nearly twice the national average per student; one of the highest in the country.
High Public School Spending in DC Hasn’t Produced Desired Outcomes
Explain that.

We’ve already established that the culture is both secondary to and and a function of socioeconomic factors, so you’re focusing on the wrong thing. Schools resources are only half of the picture. Student home life (parents presence, educational level, neighborhood safety, economic security) is the other half. Ever been to DC? It’s got some pretty dangerous, poor areas.

No, I’ve disproven your claim that a lack of money is the problem

You just said having money neuters the ill effects of the culture. It’s over.

That’s because your idea involves changing a system that is already in place, my idea involves changing the people involved is specific behaviors.
In order for your ideas to be legitimately implemented, you need to know which systems you desire to change, and why your ideas are better than the systems already in place.
To simply claim all failing schools need more funding and systemic reforms says nothing unless you know how much and how the money is being spent, why more is necessary, and the exact reforms that need to take place. In order to accomplish this you need to know something about the schools you speak of.

No, I do not need to go into details on the specifics of every struggling city and family to outline general, empirically observed relationships between socioeconomic conditions and public behavior. There is no question that some areas offer more economic opportunities than others, and black people live in a unique socioeconomic position in America given their historical and present circumstances. The challenge is on you to explain why it should be up to sheer power of will for them to succeed rather than agree that they could use some help.

It doesn’t require a plan to quit using the N-word in reference to black people, it doesn’t take a plan to quit shaming black kids interested in learning and that speak proper english, it doesn’t take a plan to stop glamorizing thug life, it doesn’t take a plan to stop bad behavior, all it takes is the understanding a change is needed, and a desire to make that change in yourself.

And how do you get people to understand and desire to make that change?

 

[Ken-1122]

No, the opposite. Your claim that it’s all about the culture is false, and it’s all about material conditions is true, since those living under better conditions are not kept down by the culture that pervades elsewhere, attractive as it may be.

No; you made the claim that the SOURCE of the culture is material conditions. Whether or not those involved in it are kept down or not is irrelevant; the culture is still there.

We’ve already established that the culture is both secondary to and and a function of socioeconomic factors,

No WE did not.

so you’re focusing on the wrong thing. Schools resources are only half of the picture. Student home life (parents presence, educational level, neighborhood safety, economic security) is the other half. Ever been to DC? It’s got some pretty dangerous, poor areas.

You said:
The strongest correlates in the educational achievement gap are socioeconomic factors, which include but are not limited to the funding available to the schools the students attend.
Those were your exact words; you spoke specifically about school resources, and that is what I am responding to. Now unless you are ready to concede the point and move on to the other stuff, explain why DC spends more money per child than nearly every school in the country, yet they have some of the lowest scores.

You just said having money neuters the ill effects of the culture. It’s over.

The kid with money may not be harmed as much, but when he spreads it around like a virus, he is doing harm to those whom he influences who may not have much money; IOW his culture is still doing harm even if it isn’t harming him.

No, I do not need to go into details on the specifics of every struggling city and family to outline general, empirically observed relationships between socioeconomic conditions and public behavior.

Yes you do! If you want to implement specific changes, you need to know the details of what you intend on dismantling.

And how do you get people to understand and desire to make that change?

By talking to them the way I’m talking to you. By challenging them and showing them their current direction is the wrong direction. By getting people to change one conversation at a time.

 

[gaara4158]

No; you made the claim that the SOURCE of the culture is material conditions. Whether or not those involved in it are kept down or not is irrelevant; the culture is still there.

The source of culture is material conditions. Culture can still be exported.

No WE did not.

We did, don’t backtrack now.

You said:
The strongest correlates in the educational achievement gap are socioeconomic factors, which include but are not limited to the funding available to the schools the students attend.
Those were your exact words; you spoke specifically about school resources, and that is what I am responding to. Now unless you are ready to concede the point and move on to the other stuff, explain why DC spends more money per child than nearly every school in the country, yet they have some of the lowest scores.

I answered your question in the quote you provided. It’s the socioeconomic circumstances of the children, not just the schools themselves. 67% of them are low-income, 17% special Ed, 20% are language minorities or English improficient. You’ve yet to demonstrate any pervasive culture of rebellious underachievement among black students in DC, yet you demand exact figures from me. The double standard is shameful.

The kid with money may not be harmed as much, but when he spreads it around like a virus, he is doing harm to those whom he influences who may not have much money; IOW his culture is still doing harm even if it isn’t harming him.

Yes, this is true. All the more reason to cut that culture off at the source.

Yes you do! If you want to implement specific changes, you need to know the details of what you intend on dismantling.

I’ve done more than necessary to make my case, just for your personal satisfaction. If we’re going to go that way, you need to demonstrate the presence and effect of problematic cultures in specific communities, verify that the source of culture is simply individuals deciding that’s the way they want to be, then you need to go into the details of how you expect people to just wake up one day and reject the culture of their communities. “Just do it” is a Nike slogan, not a solution.

By talking to them the way I’m talking to you. By challenging them and showing them their current direction is the wrong direction. By getting people to change one conversation at a time.

Who’s supposed to do that? Are you telling me you’re just going to counsel each of the millions of poor black people into turning their lives around yourself? This is absolutely absurd, and if you’re as effective with them as you’ve been with me they’ll just laugh you out of the room.

 

[Ken-1122]

The source of culture is material conditions. Culture can still be exported.

Do you really believe the pejorative “acting white” being associated with the way you speak, dress, or study is based on material conditions? Or frequent use of the N-word, but only insisting you and people like you can use it? No! That’s based on racism. This culture is likely based on a variety of different things.

We did, don’t backtrack now.

I never said fixing the culture was secondary when it comes to fixing the problem.

I answered your question in the quote you provided. It’s the socioeconomic circumstances of the children, not just the schools themselves.

I was just refuting your point that it is all about funding.

You’ve yet to demonstrate any pervasive culture of rebellious underachievement among black students in DC, yet you demand exact figures from me. The double standard is shameful.

In my experience, anywhere the “Hip Hop” culture exist, there will be people in it that adopt this culture as well. The reason your solution requires more than mine, is because it doesn’t matter the city be it Los Angles, New York, Chicago, etc. this culture is the same regardless of where it exist so the solution is the same. Your solution of changing the political funding and laws where the problem exists requires you know the funding and laws currently existing in each city, because they are different for each city so you can’t adopt a one solution fixes all like I can.

I’ve done more than necessary to make my case, just for your personal satisfaction. If we’re going to go that way, you need to demonstrate the presence and effect of problematic cultures in specific communities, verify that the source of culture is simply individuals deciding that’s the way they want to be,

Why do I need to do all of that?

then you need to go into the details of how you expect people to just wake up one day and reject the culture of their communities.

This is not a culture of the community because there are a lot of people in the community that don’t adopt this culture. I’m saying where it exist, they need to understand the problem they are causing.

Who’s supposed to do that? Are you telling me you’re just going to counsel each of the millions of poor black people into turning their lives around yourself?

I talk to who I can, and hopefully they will talk to somebody, and that person talks to somebody etc.

 

[gaara4158]

Do you really believe the pejorative “acting white” being associated with the way you speak, dress, or study is based on material conditions? Or frequent use of the N-word, but only insisting you and people like you can use it? No! That’s based on racism. This culture is likely based on a variety of different things.

Yes, literally all of that is highly subject to material conditions. Did you think it was a coincidence that people from different backgrounds all behave and speak differently, valuing different things? Are you puzzled when people don’t wear scuba gear to their accounting jobs? I find it difficult to buy that you’re not catching my meaning after so many pages of this.

I was just refuting your point that it is all about funding.

My retort that it was all about funding was more of a rhetorical flourish in response to your claim that it had nothing to do with funding, which also isn’t the case. Obviously there’s no single area we can throw money at to solve all of a community’s social and economic problems. That in no way means public resources aren’t a major factor.

In my experience, anywhere the “Hip Hop” culture exist, there will be people in it that adopt this culture as well. The reason your solution requires more than mine, is because it doesn’t matter the city be it Los Angles, New York, Chicago, etc. this culture is the same regardless of where it exist so the solution is the same. Your solution of changing the political funding and laws where the problem exists requires you know the funding and laws currently existing in each city, because they are different for each city so you can’t adopt a one solution fixes all like I can.

Don’t take it personally, but I don’t care about your personal experience. You are not an authority on the different cultures that exist in major cities in the US, and you have presented no data indicating that culture is to any significant degree independent of material conditions and therefore the proper primary target of those aiming to change the trends. You are not an authority on the genesis of different cultures in these communities. I am sure your experience makes you feel correct in your judgment, but facts don’t care about your feelings. Your solution, then, is a naive and simplistic “just turn the bad people good,” which sure, if that were a thing we could do by snapping our fingers it would work, but this is the real world. It doesn’t work that way. You need real solutions, and that’s where systemic changes come in.

Why do I need to do all of that?

Because you don’t have a leg to stand on otherwise. I know you can’t do it, because you’re wrong, I’m just trying to get you to understand why you’re wrong. You’ll research the facts and see that they don’t line up with your worldview.

This is not a culture of the community because there are a lot of people in the community that don’t adopt this culture. I’m saying where it exist, they need to understand the problem they are causing.

Whatever culture the community at large lives by is, by definition, the culture of the community. Elements of it may be appropriated from other communities, but to say the existence of a few who don’t conform makes it not the community’s culture is disingenuous. Further, it’s condescending and again, naive, to believe the problem is that people simply don’t understand the problem they are causing and if only someone were to speak the right words to them, the community would improve.

I talk to who I can, and hopefully they will talk to somebody, and that person talks to somebody etc.

Magic words only work in fantasy.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, literally all of that is highly subject to material conditions. Did you think it was a coincidence that people from different backgrounds all behave and speak differently, valuing different things?

I’m not talking about your background, I’m talking about race.

Because you don’t have a leg to stand on otherwise. I know you can’t do it, because you’re wrong, I’m just trying to get you to understand why you’re wrong. You’ll research the facts and see that they don’t line up with your worldview.

Not sure what you mean by “worldview”, but I doubt I even have one of those. However, are you claiming the culture and attitudes I speak of does not exist?

Whatever culture the community at large lives by is, by definition, the culture of the community.

There is no single culture that an entire community lives by; American communities are far too diverse for that.

 

[gaara4158]

I’m not talking about your background, I’m talking about race.

Race is a part of background, and it’s a pretty significant part for black people. It’s what determined their social standing in the US for hundreds of years. There are people living and working today who lived under Jim Crow laws. It’s ludicrous to suppose the psychological, social, and economic effects of such a subjugated past should have worn off already. These things don’t heal in just a generation or two.

Not sure what you mean by “worldview”, but I doubt I even have one of those. However, are you claiming the culture and attitudes I speak of does not exist?

In this case, I’m saying you won’t be able to find data to support your thesis that the genesis of culture (and thus the problematic elements thereof) is individual initiative and not material conditions.

There is no single culture that an entire community lives by; American communities are far too diverse for that.

“Community at large” does not need to be unanimous, it just refers to the prevailing, normative practices within that community.