STOP EXTREME GUN CONTROL BILL H.R. 127

[BNR32FAN]

(1) REQUIRED INFORMATION.—Under the firearm registration system, the owner of a firearm shall transmit to the Bureau—

“(A) the make, model, and serial number of the firearm, the identity of the owner of the firearm, the date the firearm was acquired by the owner, and where the firearm is or will be stored

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(B) ACCESS.—The Attorney General shall make the contents of the database accessible to all members of the public, all Federal, State, and local law enforcement authorities, all branches of the United States Armed Forces, and all State and local governments, as defined by the Bureau.

I suppose that gives thieves options. They know exactly which firearms are present, and where they are stored. Or they can see which homes do not have firearms and may be a softer target.

Yeah another great idea from our “highly educated” politicians. Should anyone be surprised?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Having a gun is not a magic power-up that keeps rapists away. It still depends on them getting their gun out when they realize they are being raped, which is hard when your hands are held.

Guns are not magic solutions, stop treating them like they are.

Tell that to the police & military.

 

[tall73]

No, that wasn't your argument. But if you're going to argue that guns prevent rape, then the logical conclusion would be that a country with high gun ownership should have fewer rapes than a country where almost no one carries a gun. That's clearly not the case.

You might have to look at the rates of rapes in Germany before and after enacting gun law changes. And in comparing to the USA you might have to look at the base line rates of both nations and how they have changed over time in response to various gun legislation.

German rates seem relatively stable going back to the 70's with a slight increase in recent years. However, I think they have had gun control back to the 70's as well, and I don't see data from before then.

Here is a chart that shows rates per hundred thousand, though a bit dated that includes the USA.

It shows rates in the USA going down during a time in which overall number of guns went up.

It also shows France, with more gun control, having a higher rate.

And of course that doesn't account for how often rape goes unreported, different definitions in different countries, etc.

It likely has far more to do with cultural factors than guns based on this. You would need more specific data on defensive use of firearms in cases of possible rape to determine how helpful such a thing might be.

 

[Paulos23]

Tell that to the police & military.

Who are highly trained to use those guns and only get them when they are on the job.

Are you expecting a woman to have the training needed to have a gun on them 24/7 and be able to pick out a potential rapist from every person they meet and be able to ready that gun just before she is going to need it?

I'm not.

 

[Nithavela]

My argument was not about US vs Germany rapes. Rather, it was about violent crime (rape being one of the worst) in an area where gun ownership requires a "need". I would say protection of risk of rape is definitely a "need". And I'm sure many of those women in both the EU and the US wish they had guns at the time. That is my point. Guns are a very individual thing. And unless they were in one of those strong gun control areas like New Orleans of Chicago, the ones in the US probably could have had guns.

BTW, it sounds like a woman needs a gun in the US even more than in Germany.

You know who also has a need of a gun?

A person who wants to rape another person and needs a tool to threaten them with.

 

[Direct Driver]

No, that wasn't your argument. But if you're going to argue that guns prevent rape, then the logical conclusion would be that a country with high gun ownership should have fewer rapes than a country where almost no one carries a gun. That's clearly not the case.

I would say that a country that has high gun ownership also has more attempted rapists shot. I would think that in a country where rape is common, keeping guns out of the hands of women that need them for self protection may be a mistake. Again, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

This may also speak to how the US treats convicted rapists vs how Germany does. I don't know, I've not studied it. It's also possible that women in the US may tend to participate in more risky behavior than German women. I don't know. BTW, by risky, I mean going certain places at certain times that German women are less likely to do. Again, I don't know.

 

[Direct Driver]

Who are highly trained to use those guns and only get them when they are on the job.

Are you expecting a woman to have the training needed to have a gun on them 24/7 and be able to pick out a potential rapist from every person they meet and be able to ready that gun just before she is going to need it?

I'm not.

Some are. Some are not. It's up to them. I know that if I participate less in "rapist like" behavior, I'm less likely to get shot by a woman.

An armed society is a polite society.

 

[tall73]

Who are highly trained to use those guns and only get them when they are on the job.

Are you expecting a woman to have the training needed to have a gun on them 24/7 and be able to pick out a potential rapist from every person they meet and be able to ready that gun just before she is going to need it?

I'm not.

That is partly true. But a large number of rapes involve former partners. In cases where a woman has been threatened by a specific person protective orders and such can dissuade some, but others will pay no attention to them, and the police cannot be everywhere.

In this case they are not having to discern every possible rape victim, but may be able to be at the ready when sighting the other person. .

 

[tall73]

You know who also has a need of a gun?

A person who wants to rape another person and needs a tool to threaten them with.

In cases of physical disparity they may not need a weapon.

And they are unlikely to report their weapon to a registry. They can just steal one of the hundreds of millions in the USA currently, and with a public registry would have a selection of options.

 

[Direct Driver]

Having a gun is not a magic power-up that keeps rapists away. It still depends on them getting their gun out when they realize they are being raped, which is hard when your hands are held.

Guns are not magic solutions, stop treating them like they are.

I can't argue with that. However...

 

[Direct Driver]

It still depends on them getting their gun out when they realize they are being raped, which is hard when your hands are held.

You are right. It won't help in all situations. But it also can help in SOME situations. A seat belt isn't always gonna save you. I still wear one.

 

[Direct Driver]

You know who also has a need of a gun?

A person who wants to rape another person and needs a tool to threaten them with.

I agree. And gun laws are meaningless to them. This is the ol' "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." problem.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Who are highly trained to use those guns and only get them when they are on the job.

Are you expecting a woman to have the training needed to have a gun on them 24/7 and be able to pick out a potential rapist from every person they meet and be able to ready that gun just before she is going to need it?

I'm not.

First of all nobody gets raped in public. If your in a situation where your in a dark secluded place it would be a good idea to have your pistol ready to use at a moments notice so if someone approaches you your ready to defend yourself. Yeah sure you can come up with some scenarios where having a gun could be useless and I can come up with a lot of scenarios where they are useful and to answer your question yes I expect anyone who owns a firearm to be trained in how to properly use it. Anyone who would own a firearm and not know how to properly use it is a complete moron. So here’s a scenario for ya, it’s late at night and you just heard a window in your house broken and sounds of someone entering thru the window. You don’t have a gun so you make a phone call and hope someone arrives WITH A GUN to save you before you and your family all become a murder victims. Me, I grabbed my pistol and I’m waiting at the top of the stairs to put a bullet in this guy while my wife makes the phone call because I’m not waiting for anyone.

 

[Sparagmos]

But I think the reason so many are incarcerated in the US is that we don't enforce the law enough. People assume they will get away with it even when caught, because so many do.

If so many "get away with it’, why are our incarceration rates so high? Help me understand why that’s not a circular argument.

You’re promoting a "tough on crime" stance that has been tried, and failed. It doesn’t line up with what we know about why people commit crime. It also involves a classist interpretation of what we choose to criminalize and which crimes are deemed more serious.

 

[Nithavela]

First of all nobody gets raped in public. If your in a situation where your in a dark secluded place it would be a good idea to have your pistol ready to use at a moments notice so if someone approaches you your ready to defend yourself. Yeah sure you can come up with some scenarios where having a gun could be useless and I can come up with a lot of scenarios where they are useful and to answer your question yes I expect anyone who owns a firearm to be trained in how to properly use it. Anyone who would own a firearm and not know how to properly use it is a complete moron. So here’s a scenario for ya, it’s late at night and you just heard a window in your house broken and sounds of someone entering thru the window. You don’t have a gun so you make a phone call and hope someone arrives WITH A GUN to save you before you and your family all become a murder victims. Me, I grabbed my pistol and I’m waiting at the top of the stairs to put a bullet in this guy while my wife makes the phone call because I’m not waiting for anyone.

That's a wonderfull story, but reality is different.

Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault

On average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault. Although successful defensive gun uses are possible and do occur each year,33,57 the probability of success may be low for civilian gun users in urban areas. Such users should rethink their possession of guns or, at least, understand that regular possession necessitates careful safety countermeasures. Suggestions to the contrary, especially for urban residents who may see gun possession as a surefire defense against a dangerous environment,61,67 should be discussed and thoughtfully reconsidered.

 

[tall73]

The second is what I call stoicists, who have more in commmon with the "non-Christian" members of the founding fathers. They may not have been Christian, but they were steeped in Christian values about right and wrong, law and order, etc.

They are more likely to be proactive - and many probably in a Timothy McVeigh way. And he didn't use guns.

Yes, unfortunately there are methods which require no guns and can often kill more than mass shooting attacks. When it comes to neutralizing violent groups, removing guns won't eliminate the threat.

Bomb attacks:

Oklahoma City Bombing
Oklahoma City bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 168
Injuries 500+

Madrid train bombings
2004 Madrid train bombings - Wikipedia
Deaths 193
Injuries 2,050

Bologna train station
Bologna massacre - Wikipedia
Deaths 85
Injuries 200+

July 7 London Bombings
7 July 2005 London bombings - Wikipedia
Deaths 52
Injuries 784

Bath School Bombing
Bath School disaster - Wikipedia
Deaths 44
Injuries 58

Mosco Metro Bombing
February 2004 Moscow Metro bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 41
Injuries 102

Wall Street Bombings
Wall Street bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 38
Injuries 143+

Brussels bombings
2016 Brussels bombings - Wikipedia
Deaths 32
Injuries 340

Omagh bombing
Omagh bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 29
Injuries 200-300+

Manchester Arena Bombing
Manchester Arena bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 23
Injuries 800+

Hipercore bombing
Hipercor bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 21
Injuries 45

El Descanso
El Descanso bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 18
Injuries 82

Droppin Well
Droppin Well bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 17
Injuries 30

Minsk Metro
2011 Minsk Metro bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 15
Injuries 204

Rememberance Day
Remembrance Day bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 12
Injuries 63

Plaza República Dominicana bombing
Plaza República Dominicana bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 12
Injuries 32

Zaragoza Barracks
1987 Zaragoza Barracks bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 11
Injuries 88

Deal Barracks
Deal barracks bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 11
Injuries 21

LaGuardia Airport Bombing
1975 LaGuardia Airport bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 11
Injuries 74

Hyde and Regent Park
Hyde Park and Regent's Park bombings - Wikipedia
Deaths 11

Vic bombing
Vic bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 10
Injuries 44

Saint-Michel station
1995 France bombings - Wikipedia
8 deaths
117 Injured

Oslo Bombing
2011 Norway attacks - Wikipedia
Deaths 8
Injuries 209

Harrods Bombing
Harrods bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 6
Injuries 90

1993 World Trade Center Bombing
1993 World Trade Center bombing - Wikipedia
Deaths 6
Injuries 1,042

Arson fire attacks:

Daegu subway fire
Daegu subway fire - Wikipedia
Deaths 192
Injuries 150

Dupont Plaza Hotel
Dupont Plaza Hotel arson - Wikipedia
Deaths 98
Injuries 140

Happy Land
Happy Land fire - Wikipedia
Deaths 87
Injuries 6

Gothenburg Discotech
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothenburg_discothèque_fire
Deaths 63
Injuries 213

Blue Bird Cafe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Bird_Café_fire
Deaths 37
Injuries 5 firefighters, unknown number of citizens

Kyoto Animation
Kyoto Animation arson attack - Wikipedia
Deaths 35
injuries 34

Upstairs Lounge
UpStairs Lounge arson attack - Wikipedia
Deaths 32
Injuries 15

Whiskey Au Go Go
Whiskey Au Go Go fire - Wikipedia
Deaths 15

Childers Palace
Childers Palace Backpackers Hostel fire - Wikipedia
Deaths 15

Vehicle attacks:

Nice
2016 Nice truck attack - Wikipedia
Deaths 86
Injuries 434

Ürümqi SUV attacks, also using explosives
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2014_Ürümqi_attack
Deaths 39
Injuries 90+

Hebei tractor rampage
2010 Hebei tractor rampage - Wikipedia
Deaths 17
Injuries 20+

Barcelona
2017 Barcelona attacks - Wikipedia
Deaths 15
Injuries 131

Berlin Christmas Market
2016 Berlin truck attack - Wikipedia
Deaths 12
Injuries 56

Toronto van incel attack
Toronto van attack - Wikipedia
Deaths 10
Injuries 16

New York Truck Attack
2017 New York City truck attack - Wikipedia
Deaths 8
Injuries 12

Knife attacks:

Sogan colliery attack
At least 50 reported to have died in attack on coalmine in Xinjiang in September
Terrorism in China - Wikipedia
Deaths 50

Kunming attack
2014 Kunming attack - Wikipedia
Deaths 31
Injuries 43

Sagamihara stabbings
Sagamihara stabbings - Wikipedia
Deaths 19
Injuries 26

Nafang Market Rampage stabbings
Huang Guozhen - Wikipedia
Deaths 16
Injuries 2

Ruzhou Number Two High School Dorm attack
Yan Yanming - Wikipedia
Deaths 9
Injuries 3

Student Nurse Dormitory killings
Richard Speck - Wikipedia
Deaths 8

Osaka school massacre
Osaka school massacre - Wikipedia
Deaths 8
Injuries 15

Nanping school massacre
Nanping school massacre - Wikipedia
Deaths 8
Injuries 5

Hong Kong Anne Anne Kindergarten stabbings
Anne Anne Kindergarten stabbing - Wikipedia
Deaths 6
Injuries 38

Shimonoseki Station Massacre
Shimonoseki Station massacre - Wikipedia
Deaths 5
Injuries 10

Other:

London Bridge vehicle and knife attack
2017 London Bridge attack - Wikipedia
Deaths 8
Injuries 48

Tokyo truck and knife attack
Deaths 7
Injuries 10

Tokyo Subway Sarin
Tokyo subway sarin attack - Wikipedia
Deaths 13
Injuries 1,000+

Matsyniti Sarin Attack
Matsumoto sarin attack - Wikipedia
Deaths 8
Injuries 500+

 

[Sparagmos]

First of all nobody gets raped in public. If your in a situation where your in a dark secluded place it would be a good idea to have your pistol ready to use at a moments notice so if someone approaches you your ready to defend yourself. Yeah sure you can come up with some scenarios where having a gun could be useless and I can come up with a lot of scenarios where they are useful and to answer your question yes I expect anyone who owns a firearm to be trained in how to properly use it. Anyone who would own a firearm and not know how to properly use it is a complete moron. So here’s a scenario for ya, it’s late at night and you just heard a window in your house broken and sounds of someone entering thru the window. You don’t have a gun so you make a phone call and hope someone arrives WITH A GUN to save you before you and your family all become a murder victims. Me, I grabbed my pistol and I’m waiting at the top of the stairs to put a bullet in this guy while my wife makes the phone call because I’m not waiting for anyone.

Yet things like that rarely happen. What is less rare is that a suicidal member of your family uses the gun to kill themself.

And women get raped primarily by men they know, whom they have already invited in, are visiting, or live with. A gun in my purse on the other side of the room, or in a safe won’t help prevent rape.

 

[Paulos23]

First of all nobody gets raped in public. If your in a situation where your in a dark secluded place it would be a good idea to have your pistol ready to use at a moments notice so if someone approaches you your ready to defend yourself. Yeah sure you can come up with some scenarios where having a gun could be useless and I can come up with a lot of scenarios where they are useful and to answer your question yes I expect anyone who owns a firearm to be trained in how to properly use it. Anyone who would own a firearm and not know how to properly use it is a complete moron. So here’s a scenario for ya, it’s late at night and you just heard a window in your house broken and sounds of someone entering thru the window. You don’t have a gun so you make a phone call and hope someone arrives WITH A GUN to save you before you and your family all become a murder victims. Me, I grabbed my pistol and I’m waiting at the top of the stairs to put a bullet in this guy while my wife makes the phone call because I’m not waiting for anyone.

We can do this all day about this scenario and that scenario that point out the favor of our position and the detriment of the others. But the point is, a gun is not the clear answer to a home invasion. What if it was the cops coming in for some reason with a no know warrant? What if you are a sound sleeper and even after hearing it you don't wake up or wake up fully.

Round and round we go. I get why people feel empowered with guns, and some of the best gun owners I know of are the ones that have gone through CC training, mostly because the ones I know have training to avoid drawing that gun, to make it the last option. They know that guns are not the only option and that it should be the last option.

The way you guys talk it is like you will pick up a gun at the first sign of trouble. That is not always possible or desirable.

 

[Paulos23]

You are right. It won't help in all situations. But it also can help in SOME situations. A seat belt isn't always gonna save you. I still wear one.

Seat belts help in more accidents than guns do in assault situations. In some cases, the gun makes it worse.

 

[Direct Driver]

If so many "get away with it’, why are our incarceration rates so high? Help me understand why that’s not a circular argument.

You’re promoting a "tough on crime" stance that has been tried, and failed. It doesn’t line up with what we know about why people commit crime. It also involves a classist interpretation of what we choose to criminalize and which crimes are deemed more serious.

If you don't punish people for doing something, more think they can get away with it. So at the end of the day you end up with a LOT more people doing it and, therefore, STILL more people being incarcerated. People always think that they will be the one that gets away with it. When NOBODY does, they are less likely to believe that.

To apply hypothetical numbers. If 2 poeple out of the ten that actually commit a crime get incarcerated, it may incentivize 500 more to do it, with 40 of them getting arrested and incarcerated. So being soft causes MORE people to be incarcerated because you've literally incentivized MORE crime.