Doctrinal Origin from Pope Gregory I

[Original Happy Camper]

Friend, the pope may add or remove books from the Bible as he pleases. Just the other day he took out Matthew and replaced it with the didache.

can you give me a link to support "Just the other day he took out Matthew and replaced it with the didache."

Thanks

 

[Swag365]

Only GOD can read my mind and you are not him so please refrain from insinuating that you are him by your statements.

You don't have to be God to know how this thread is going to end.

 

[chilehed]

It goes to credibility. If there is a place for purging, then one cannot escape the conclusion that Christ did NOT become sin for us, as is written. The scriptures give me no reason to believe:

* there is sin,
* there are half way sins, and then
* non-sin.

Other than that it seriously misrepresents what the doctrine of purgatory is, and relies on your own thinking (which is called into question by your misrepresentation of what the Church teaches about purgatory), I find that to be a compelling response.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

You don't have to be God to know how this thread is going to end.

Okay you are not GOD but you are representing yourself as a prophet now.

 

[Swordman007]

Other than that it seriously misrepresents what the doctrine of purgatory is, and relies on your own thinking (which is called into question by your misrepresentation of what the Church teaches about purgatory), I find that to be a compelling response.

That's why I created this thread...to explore the definition of that belief and to see if it withstands the test of scripture. Some of the other roman catholics in this thread have called it "purging."

So, what's YOUR definition?

 

[Valletta]

That's why I created this thread...to explore the definition of that belief and to see if it withstands the test of scripture. Some of the other roman catholics in this thread have called it "purging."

So, what's YOUR definition?

The Catholic Church does not state that purgatory is a place. We know the nothing unclean can enter Heaven, the purification before Heaven is purgatory. That's it--you either believe the Bible or you don't.

 

[Swag365]

Okay you are not GOD but you are representing yourself as a prophet now.

Thank you for the compliment.

 

[Swordman007]

[1 John 1:9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So, we see here that we're cleansed from ALL unrighteousness in Christ Jesus when He was made sin for us.

I have seen some refer to "venial" sins. Are those sins unrighteous, or are they righteous? Is there such a thing as "righteous sin" as long as it doesn't fall into the category of "unrighteous"?

 

[chilehed]

That's why I created this thread...to explore the definition of that belief...

Then why haven't you bothered to study the only definition that matters? You know, the one given by the Catholic Church? I gave you the link already.

 

[Swordman007]

The Catholic Church does not state that purgatory is a place. We know the nothing unclean can enter Heaven, the purification before Heaven is purgatory. That's it--you either believe the Bible or you don't.

Ok, so where does the Bible name "purgatory"? Mine doesn't have that name in any language.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

How can sin and righteousness be in the same sentence except it be self righteousness?

 

[Swordman007]

Then why haven't you bothered to study the only definition that matters? You know, the one given by the Catholic Church? I gave you the link already.

Understood, but when I try to mesh it with the Bible, I don't see it in there.

 

[Cis.jd]

It goes to credibility. If there is a place for purging, then one cannot escape the conclusion that Christ did NOT become sin for us, as is written. The scriptures give me no reason to believe:

* there is sin,
* there are half way sins, and then
* non-sin.

Sin is sin, from what I have always known, and attempts at establishing what sound like "not quite" sin, but also "not quite" righteous....as if there is some middle ground between sin and righteousness. To my thinking, that would be like saying a woman can be "partially pregnant" without arguing the finer details of the fertilized egg not yet attached to the lining, etc.

So, there's no middle ground to Christ's crucifixion from what I understand that the apostles wrote. If someone has something substantial in the language of scripture in support of purging, then I'd be interested in seeing it.

You have to also remember God is also a righteous judge. He has to be just. What about those who where born and raised in a different geographical location in where they would never learn or know Christ? Should they just go to hell? Obviously, they can't just shoot up to heaven either.. so what is the right judgement here?

What about other people who may have hurt someone severely such as abusing someone that he/she commits suicide, should that just be "swept under the rug"? Imagine if a country had a leader who granted his followers a safe pass (or reward them to a life of paradise) to do any crime towards others. Is this leader just/righteous?

 

[Swag365]

Understood, but when I try to mesh it with the Bible, I don't see it in there.

Read it again. Perhaps the Lord will show you.

 

[Swordman007]

You have to also remember God is also a righteous judge. He has to be just. What about those who where born and raised in a different geographical location in where they would never learn or know Christ? Should they just go to hell? Obviously, they can't just shoot up to heaven either.. so what is the right judgement here?

All I can offer to you is what is written along this line:

[Romans 1:18-23] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

My understanding doesn't go beyond what's written and what Holy Spirit reveals, as is stated in 1 John 2:27.

What about other people who may have hurt someone severely such as abusing someone that he/she commits suicide, should that just be "swept under the rug"? Imagine if a country had a leader who granted his followers a safe pass (or reward them to a life of paradise) to do any crime towards others. Is this leader just/righteous?

I'm not sure what these questions are driving at in relation to what I actually said.

 

[chilehed]

Understood, but when I try to mesh it with the Bible, I don't see it in there.

I might find that reasonable if you displayed any understanding of what purgatory is, and didn't ignore the ample evidence that the teaching existed long before the 6th Century.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I did that a year or so ago about other questions, and some folks took it personal, so that's why I took it here. I knew some adherents would find this eventually, and perhaps tone down some with the realization we're not in their sacred area. I don't like walking on egg shells.

I will respond there but responding here isn't my cup of tea. I just get really tired of the polemics.

 

[lsume]

No, your use of the term apostolic church is incorrect. But that's OK. If my church were founded by a king so that he could get a divorce, I would probably want to obfuscate the meaning of the phrase as well.

As I’m sure you know, a great deal written in The Bible is hidden until someone seeks Christ. You are of course correct in your observation of why the king might have wanted his own church. People are reading the Bible the same way today reading without seeing. All we can do is pray.

 

[buzuxi02]

Pope Gregory did not teach purgatory. Gregory taught only one eternal hell fire while the doctrine of purgatory taught a temporal fire and the eternal hell fire.
Gregory said that if anyone believes some sins can be forgiven in the next life make sure they only believe they are small trivial sins that have small bearing. He makes clear in Chapter 39 bk4 of his dialogues no purgatory. So much so that in the 14th century Pope Gregory's writings were brought up by the Orthodox Greeks against their Latin counterparts at Florence when debating the validity of purgatory. .

 

[Cis.jd]

All I can offer to you is what is written along this line:

[Romans 1:18-23] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

My understanding doesn't go beyond what's written and what Holy Spirit reveals, as is stated in 1 John 2:27.

You protestants need to take the Bible as a whole, you can't just cherry pick verses. There are also verses that speak of a person needing to pay their sins and being judged by their deeds, we don't just put them on a lower significance.

I'm not sure what these questions are driving at in relation to what I actually said.

The question is supposed to show the need of being just and righteous. Yes, Christ saved us but he is still the Righteous Judge and it would not be right to just let any sin done to someone get swept under the rug. Just answer the question by yourself plain and simple, how can a leader be considered good based on those actions given?