Falling Away - Departure - Catching-up

[BrotherJJ]

I just wonder where you're getting the second word, STRONGS NT 359: ἀνάλυσις ?

It looks to me like that word only occurs in one verse of the Bible, 2 Timothy 4:6.
For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure G359 has come.

The word in 2 Thes 2:3 is STRONGS NT 646: ἀποστασία in every text I can find.

Let no G3361 one G5100 in any G3367 way G5158 deceive G1818 you, for it will not come unless G1437 G3361 the apostasy G646 comes G2064 first, G4413 and the man G444 of lawlessness G458 is revealed, G601 the son G5207 of destruction, G684

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, just wondering where you're getting your word.

My apology I fumbled on my Strongs addition. I have edited the post.

MY OP listed 5 bible versions with text, ALL, translate 2 Thes 2:3 depart or departure, NONE, say falling away.

Now the question becomes, who's translation is correct. I personally believe depart or departure make more sense, when reading Thes chapters 2-4. Clearly we disagree, I'm cool with your decision. Peace, JJ

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

I have news for you... the apostacy has already come, but you won't believe it. I have seen it clearly in the sixty years I have lived and the 50+ years I have served Christ.

It has happened in church philosophy.

It has happened socially.

It has happened politically.

It won't be long now.

 

[eleos1954]

I'll go with departure as the correct translation. You're free to agree with the versions that translate falling away. We disagree, no harm no foul. Best wishes, JJ

go look up hebrew and greek words .... and their meaning(s) here.

www.biblehub.com

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

I am what once was called a "pan tribulationist" saying, "It will all pan out in the end."

Or, perhaps more correctly, "Whatever God determines is what will happen and I'm satisfied that his will be done."

What I do see clearly from Matthew 24 is that the rapture won't take place until the sign of the coming of the Son of man appears in the sky when, "every eye shall behold him," for it says, "Then he will send his angels to gather his elect from the four corners of the earth [that means every place on earth]."

We will truly meet the Lord in the air before he descends on the Mount of Olives. What time period there is between our gathering and his touchdown I do not know. If 7 years or not. God knows, he's got it worked out and I trust him.

It is a one time event but, as we know, each event takes its own time.

This I do know. There is no secret rapture and there is a time of Jacob's trouble for both are mentioned.

I ask this, did you bring extra oil? Are you doing God's will or are you partying with the drunken [I see so much of the church doing this these days, its disheartening]? In what state will the master find you when he returns?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I cited 5 bible versions written pre KJV, NSAB & NRSV that translated departure not falling away.

Sure, since apostasy is a departure from the faith. That's sensible.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

Thanks for you're input. Fact is we have 2 words translated differently by several different translators. I didn't write any of the versions I posted. I copied & pasted them directly from each bible version. Thes scripture is loaded with eschatological verses.

My notes are just that, my notes. A personal opinion & they add nothing to scripture.

We all have only our own beliefs to answer for. I'm prepared to answer for mine one day soon.

I believe in a coming rapture, many on here don't. That's why I chose the controversial Christian theology forum.

I respect your opinions & wish you all the best. JJ

What I'm saying is that the translations are all fine it's your interpretation of them that is very faulty.
To be truthful, it sounds desperate to want to stretch interpretation to read a pretribulation rapture into 2 Thessalonians 2. When you read 2 Thessalonians 2 plainly, with Paul making the rapture have prerequisite conditions, it actually becomes problematic for the pretribulational view. The pretribulational view REQUIRES that there be no prerequisite events.
But here Paul has just given 2 prerequisite events and 1 of them is the revelation of the Antichrist. That'd mean that the rapture couldn't be pretribulation. But don't worry, in several locations in the bible God has promised that we will not be subject to His wrath. It's just a matter of knowing when the wrath of God begins.
Revelation 6:17
Revelation 14:19-20
So while we're subject to Satan's wrath, Man's wrath, even the Antichrist's wrath, we are not subject to any of the trumpets and vials of God's wrath.

 

[Jamdoc]

How can a verse copied & pasted from a bible be out of context? If you're referencing my notes/my opinions. How are they of any less value then yours?

I believe the Day of Christ & the Day of the Lord are different. Find my parsing here from 2018:
Day of the Lord vs Day of Christ

At the catching-up saints meet the Lord in the air (Thes 4). At the physical return, Christ's feet touch Mt Olive & his saints are with him (Zec 14).

The apostles believed Christ's return was imminent. Yet, here we are 2k yrs later still waiting. Having said that, 2k yrs weighed against eternity is less then a drop in a huge bucket. My point, why not a frame of time between the rapture & Jesus physical return?

Thes 2:3 the departing/catching-up comes 1st then man of sin is revealed.

Michael is a powerful warrior angel. However, not as powerful as God the Holy Spirit. Who dwells in believers, leaving no one indwelt left when the Holy Spirit removes the Body of Christ/Church.

See, your interpretation of Thessalonians 2:3 is calling almost every English bible translation inaccurate and not a trustworthy translation of the Word of God
That's a problem.
If you want to believe in a pretribulational rapture we can both disagree and have our own views.
But if you want to declare the word of God has not been preserved in meaning, I have to admonish you as a brother, and say you're absolutely wrong. Definitively wrong. It just looks like grasping for straws to interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the way you do. It looks like fear and desperation like you recognize that pretribulationalism might be wrong and are desperately searching for a prooftext to back up your position.
If you want to interpret the restrainer as the holy spirit and the church and use that as your claim to pretribulational rapture.. we'd agree to disagree. But since the restrainer is left to interpretation and the verses mean the same thing across all versions of the bible.. I can't really rebuke you over that. But to change the meaning of a verse so drastically as to make most English bibles inaccurate and the word of God is not preserved in meaning? I can't accept that.
How could you possibly accept that?
That's fear.
That's desperation.
That is WICKED.

 

[Gregorikos]

It seems to me there is another flaw with our brother's interpretation. The translations he has cited to support his idea were published in 1599, 1526, 1537, 1535, and 1540.

Yet the pre-trib rapture doctrine didn't exist in history until John Nelson Darby began teaching it in 1830. How could it be that such a plain reference to the rapture was overlooked by Bible expositors in the 16th century? They all must have understood "the departing" of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 in another way.

Even more: the grandfather of the the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine, John Nelson Darby, published his own translation of the Bible. Here is how he translated 2 Thes 2:3-

Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;

If 2 Thes 2:3 was pointing to the rapture, how could Darby himself have missed it in his own Bible translation?

 

[Jamdoc]

It seems to me there is another flaw with our brother's interpretation. The translations he has cited to support his idea were published in 1599, 1526, 1537, 1535, and 1540.

Yet the pre-trib rapture doctrine didn't exist in history until John Nelson Darby began teaching it in 1830. How could it be that such a plain reference to the rapture was overlooked by Bible expositors in the 16th century? They all must have understood "the departing" of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 in another way.

Even more: the grandfather of the the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine, John Nelson Darby, published his own translation of the Bible. Here is how he translated 2 Thes 2:3-

Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;

If 2 Thes 2:3 was pointing to the rapture, how could Darby himself have missed it in his own Bible translation?

Well, I don't like to argue against pretribulationalism with the whole John Nelson Darby angle. Afterall my own rapture position (Prewrath) wasn't really a defined position until even more recently for all I know the historical view was all posttribulationalism which is a little odd considering that the bible promised us we're not appointed to wrath. So what others believed in the timing is not really my concern, afterall, Daniel 12 says knowledge will increase. For me it's more about what the word of God says. Some things are kind of ambiguous but this interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is such a radical change to what the verse is actually saying as to make all bible translations for the past 400 years to be wrong, and if God can't preserve the meaning of His word.. that's a problem.
More likely the change in translation was to make it more clear that this was not talking about the rapture being it's own prerequisite condition when people take the verse out of context.

 

[Swan7]

I have news for you... the apostacy has already come, but you won't believe it. I have seen it clearly in the sixty years I have lived and the 50+ years I have served Christ.

It has happened in church philosophy.

It has happened socially.

It has happened politically.

It won't be long now.

I certainly agree and I haven't lived 50 years lol!
It really is a sad reality.

 

[Jamdoc]

I certainly agree and I haven't lived 50 years lol!
It really is a sad reality.

I'd say the apostasy started when there was a string of Supreme court decisions that basically tossed God out of American culture, and probably similar things happening in other traditionally Christian nations around the same time. I know in Europe there's a lot more "nones" in the religion category than in previous generations, same as America.
The whole western world has been pushing God away for a good 50-60 years.
By the time of Gen X the family unit was compromised, more and more single mothers.
This is a good episode of Wretched Radio where Todd even uses a secular sociologist's analysis of past civilizations and how they fell, and applied it to how our country's culture is, and well, next generation may see America's collapse, and I honestly think 2020 has been the beginning of the end for our position in the world as the dominant culture of the globe.

Basically from the secular sociologist's view, you devalue marriage and promote a sexual revolution, your society collapses, but as Christians, we know the cause of devaluing marriage and promoting a sexual revolution... is first dismissing God.
We dismissed God, then within a decade, a sexual revolution, within a generation, no fault divorce and destruction of the family unit, within 2 generations, normalization of homosexuality.
It follows the pattern.
We're right in the middle of the apostasia.

 

[Swan7]

I'd say the apostasy started when there was a string of Supreme court decisions that basically tossed God out of American culture, and probably similar things happening in other traditionally Christian nations around the same time. I know in Europe there's a lot more "nones" in the religion category than in previous generations, same as America.
The whole western world has been pushing God away for a good 50-60 years.
By the time of Gen X the family unit was compromised, more and more single mothers.
This is a good episode of Wretched Radio where Todd even uses a secular sociologist's analysis of past civilizations and how they fell, and applied it to how our country's culture is, and well, next generation may see America's collapse, and I honestly think 2020 has been the beginning of the end for our position in the world as the dominant culture of the globe.

Basically from the secular sociologist's view, you devalue marriage and promote a sexual revolution, your society collapses, but as Christians, we know the cause of devaluing marriage and promoting a sexual revolution... is first dismissing God.
We dismissed God, then within a decade, a sexual revolution, within a generation, no fault divorce and destruction of the family unit, within 2 generations, normalization of homosexuality.
It follows the pattern.
We're right in the middle of the apostasia.

I believe it's been happening long before that, but I do know this - we are seeing the day of Lot and Noah a lot more clear as the years go by.

 

[Jamdoc]

I believe it's been happening long before that, but I do know this - we are seeing the day of Lot and Noah a lot more clear as the years go by.

Eh, I think it lines up with the "fig tree generation" Israel reborn as a nation, the dismissal of God from society, sexual revolution, this is all within the baby boomer generation, and I believe before the baby boomers all pass away, we'll see the return of Christ.
It's like in lock step.
But I guess if you take in Russia and some 19th century philosophy some of it has been happening longer, but I think it really took off in the last 70 years or so.

 

[Swan7]

Eh, I think it lines up with the "fig tree generation" Israel reborn as a nation, the dismissal of God from society, sexual revolution, this is all within the baby boomer generation, and I believe before the baby boomers all pass away, we'll see the return of Christ.
It's like in lock step.
But I guess if you take in Russia and some 19th century philosophy some of it has been happening longer, but I think it really took off in the last 70 years or so.

I say longer only because what Paul believed in his time. He really believed Christ was coming during his age. I'm not at all dismissing what you see or are saying, in fact I can see why you do. I think we are both in agreement as to what is happening here, if anything.

 

[mlepfitjw]

So maybe it was a departure from having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and back into following traditions of man, and for the people back then falling back into animal sacrifices, priesthoods and not resting in Christ Jesus.

Especially when there was a lot of stumbling blocks in Israel when it was time for Jerusalem to be destroyed for the second time, and then so shall the Lord God Almighty Heavenly Jerusalem be forever allowing anyone who believes and has faith in God and trust in Christ Jesus (if they have heard of him) which gives them the spirit of God, which the spirit from God is peace, joy, mercy, forgiveness, love that protects, kindness, goodness, forbearance, keeping no record of any wrongs, which also apart of Christ Jesus that lives with-in us as believers.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The KJB is my final word of authority, so I take the falling away as referring to apostasy. In fact, the word “apostasy” comes from the Greek word, “apostasia.” (Which is used for “falling away” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3). The other use of this word appears in Acts of the Apostles 21:21 and it also refers to a forsaking in a negative sense, and not really a happy depature. Also, the context shows us that continually in chapters 1-3 of 2 Thessalonians for us to live holy and be on our guard to do so for our Lord's return. To be ready. This fits the view that we should not share in the fate of those believers who are falling away in these last days. In fact, 2 Timothy 3:1-9 talks about how in the last days perilous times will come and men will be lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, and they will have a form of godliness, but they will deny the power thereof. What power are they denying? God's power to help them to live a holy life instead of justifying sin (as most Christianity today appear to be doing). Many will be left behind and they will have to re-examine their faith. They thought they could commit mortal sin on some level, and still be saved. But when they miss out on the Rapture, they will know they were wrong.

 

[Blade]

Ancient Greek a not everyone understands it. Then forgive me some of you saying "search or study" yet only post one source. If were talking "study/search" then one knows "departure" and how it was is translated and one would know not all scholars agree. So it would seem some of you are only going with the one you agree with that matches your personal belief.

Now the OP could have added "its ok you can still say "departure" and run with it like "fallen-away""

Some of you have no problem agreeing with those that post "no caught up". Well if we truly studied this then we know no one can prove PRE MID POST. Sticking up for just the one you agree with well .. how are you any different?

Like or dislike here matters not but Dr Brown for years believed pre trib not believes post. He will never put down make fun of those that believe in pre trib for he knows no one can prove it. Perry stone has studied this longer then anyone here and even he will not ever say "I am right your wrong".

So much of this is mute. When you come accross as your right period.. thanks for sharing how you personally believe but I disagree. You have no more info into this then any other. And NO ONE since Christ left has been able to get Him or God or the sweet sweet Holy Spirit to say when. Yeah.. no answer at all. Hmm but some man lol knows.. ok praise God.

What I personally believe.. for me helps. Or why did you post? I agree with the word departure. it was the 1st used. There are reasons they changed it.. I still see departure as the right word. For me I have ALL power over the enemy. He will NEVER have power over me aka the Church. He can never hurt me or the Church. Never will have power over Christ in me. So gee the restrainer taken out of the way. Something that has more power then the lawless one. Then and only then do we see the lawless one doing lying wonders. Wonders that man will say only a GOD can do.

Greater is He that is in you.. I have you all power all authority over the enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Anyway.. things I wonder about.. if I offended forgive me didn't mean to. Some of you.... don't take it personally. WE ALL want to see Him in the AIR voice shout trump and we are with Him forever. THATS what matters so be ready NOW! Not that hard.. oh if you can't live for him every moment now you never will for whats coming

 

[Jamdoc]

Ancient Greek a not everyone understands it. Then forgive me some of you saying "search or study" yet only post one source. If were talking "study/search" then one knows "departure" and how it was is translated and one would know not all scholars agree. So it would seem some of you are only going with the one you agree with that matches your personal belief.

Now the OP could have added "its ok you can still say "departure" and run with it like "fallen-away""

Some of you have no problem agreeing with those that post "no caught up". Well if we truly studied this then we know no one can prove PRE MID POST. Sticking up for just the one you agree with well .. how are you any different?

Like or dislike here matters not but Dr Brown for years believed pre trib not believes post. He will never put down make fun of those that believe in pre trib for he knows no one can prove it. Perry stone has studied this longer then anyone here and even he will not ever say "I am right your wrong".

So much of this is mute. When you come accross as your right period.. thanks for sharing how you personally believe but I disagree. You have no more info into this then any other. And NO ONE since Christ left has been able to get Him or God or the sweet sweet Holy Spirit to say when. Yeah.. no answer at all. Hmm but some man lol knows.. ok praise God.

What I personally believe.. for me helps. Or why did you post? I agree with the word departure. it was the 1st used. There are reasons they changed it.. I still see departure as the right word. For me I have ALL power over the enemy. He will NEVER have power over me aka the Church. He can never hurt me or the Church. Never will have power over Christ in me. So gee the restrainer taken out of the way. Something that has more power then the lawless one. Then and only then do we see the lawless one doing lying wonders. Wonders that man will say only a GOD can do.

Greater is He that is in you.. I have you all power all authority over the enemy and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Anyway.. things I wonder about.. if I offended forgive me didn't mean to. Some of you.... don't take it personally. WE ALL want to see Him in the AIR voice shout trump and we are with Him forever. THATS what matters so be ready NOW! Not that hard.. oh if you can't live for him every moment now you never will for whats coming

The problem is if you have the word depart, then some people could interpret it as rapture and others as apostasy.
but when future English translations all translate apostasia as something that is unequivocably bad, apostasy, falling away, revolt, rebellion, then to claim the original meaning was the rapture, is to declare that God's word is not prserved in meaning.
Because you cannot read apostasy or rebellion and think "rapture"
Whatever interpretation you have, it should be able to be interpreted that way across every translation of the bible.
If it cannot, then your interpretation is wrong.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I may be the only one who thinks so, but I suspect it relates to Daniel 9:26

ESV:
And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Young's Literal Translation:
And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations.

1. The Messiah is cut off from Jerusalem and Judea, and those people (the Jews) are not his.
2. An invader comes to destroy Judea and its people.

First, the departure, or separation, and then the destroyer comes. The way that it's worded, especially in Young's Literal, would suggest something closer to apostasy, rather than rapture.

 

[BrotherJJ]

See, your interpretation of Thessalonians 2:3 is calling almost every English bible translation inaccurate and not a trustworthy translation of the Word of God
That's a problem.
If you want to believe in a pretribulational rapture we can both disagree and have our own views.
But if you want to declare the word of God has not been preserved in meaning, I have to admonish you as a brother, and say you're absolutely wrong. Definitively wrong. It just looks like grasping for straws to interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the way you do. It looks like fear and desperation like you recognize that pretribulationalism might be wrong and are desperately searching for a prooftext to back up your position.
If you want to interpret the restrainer as the holy spirit and the church and use that as your claim to pretribulational rapture.. we'd agree to disagree. But since the restrainer is left to interpretation and the verses mean the same thing across all versions of the bible.. I can't really rebuke you over that. But to change the meaning of a verse so drastically as to make most English bibles inaccurate and the word of God is not preserved in meaning? I can't accept that.
How could you possibly accept that?
That's fear.
That's desperation.
That is WICKED.

All righty then, we'll leave it at that. May the Lord's grace be multiplied to you & yours. JJ