Understanding "the beginning" and "the end"

[Spiritual Jew]

For me, the key point in switching my belief to preterism was being convinced that the book of Revelation was actually written prior to 70 AD. That opened up my eyes to verses in that book which I had always tried to interpret through the lens of futurism and it was very difficult to make sense of it all, but through the lens of preterism all of these verses suddenly made a lot of sense.

To me, you went from one false extreme to another. Neither view holds up to scrutiny and that is why I am neither a futurist nor a preterist.

Do you think you could be convinced that the book was indeed written prior to 70 AD?

Not likely, but even if that was true, it wouldn't change how I interpret the book.

As I've pointed out before, if the events centered around what was going to happen in Jerusalem in 70 AD then it would make a lot more sense that the book would have been addressed to the church in Jerusalem or the churches in Israel instead of the seven churches in the province of Asia.

And you still have not answered my question as to why it would have been the case that it was addressed to churches in Asia instead of Israel if everything in the book centers around events in and around Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I agree that the old covenant has been removed, but I also believe that it overlapped with the new for 40 years, at least in a sense. Yes, Jesus "finished" the establishment of the new covenant and removed the need for the old, but as long as the temple still stood the old covenant was still being adhered to, and although God had declared the old covenant null and void, the Jews had not.

Who cares if some foolish Jews were still trying to keep the old coveannt laws instead of embracing Christ and His new covenant instead! You can't base your understanding of when the old covenant was still in effect on the behavior of Christ-rejecting Jews! You need to base it on what scripture teaches.

Read Galatians 3 and see how Paul scolded the Galatians for foolishly trying to observe the old covenant works of the law and then tell me if you think Paul thought the old covenant was still in effect or not.

The following passage could not be more clear that Christ put an end to the old covenant and its many ordinances by nailing it to His cross.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The above passage is so clear that it speaks for itself. No commentary is needed.

Imagine divorcing your wife and she continues to walk into your house and sleep in your bed as if nothing had changed. If you allow that to continue to happen, then you can't rightfully claim you're divorced. Only after you change the locks and she loses access to your house is the divorce final.

You are using human logic to interpret scripture instead of just accepting what it says. That isn't wise.

Also note that the author of Hebrews said in Hebrews 8:13

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

That implies the old covenant had not yet disappeared at that time.

The traces of it hadn't disappeared because the temple buildings were still standing, but that doesn't mean it wasn't already made obsolete by way of Christ "nailing it to His cross". The old covenant was already obsolete but you're trying to argue that it was not obsolete until 70 AD! Not so! It was obsolete and put to an end and no longer in effect when Christ nailed it to His cross.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Let me just expand on this a little bit. The reason I say the old covenant ended in 70 AD is because I believe the thousand years began at that time also. They can not have begun at the cross because Revelation 20 makes it clear that those who refused the mark of the beast came to life and reigned with Christ, which means the thousand years must begin after the mark of the beast.

It also means that death was defeated after the mark of the beast, as it is demonstrated by the resurrection of the martyrs, and 1 Corinthians 15 links that event to the end of the law.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Law = sin = death.

If death comes through sin, and sin comes through the law, then as long as the law exists, death exists. Which means if death was destroyed, as demonstrated by the resurrection just prior to the thousand years, that must mean also that the law was destroyed at that time. The law can not have been destroyed at the cross, because that would require for the mark of the beast to have been in place prior to the cross.

I'm afraid my explanation might be a little bit confusing so let me just summarize my logic.

1. The mark of the beast comes prior to the thousand years.
2. The resurrection comes after the mark of the beast.
3. The resurrection signals the start of the thousand years.
4. The resurrection signals the end of death.
5. The end of death signals the end of sin.
6. The end of sin signals the end of the law.

All these things are connected. Therefore, the end of the law is after the mark of the beast.

I don't even know where to begin on all of that. Did you come up with all of that on your own or did someone teach it to you?

How can the thousand years have started in 70 AD when Christ was already reigning well before that (read Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:19-23)? Also, Satan was bound before that. What is your understanding of the binding of Satan?

 

[Freedm]

You do not live by any laws?

If the Second Coming happened in the first century, then that was also the end of the church. There is nothing going on Scripture wise right now. The only thing between the Second Coming and the next reality, is Christ ruling on earth with an iron rod. Since that is not happening, then nothing is happening.

The church is Christ on earth between the Cross and the Second Coming which is still future.

What's happening on the earth right now is the mustard seed is in the process of growing into the largest tree in the garden.

 

[Freedm]

Did I say it wasn't addressed to people living in the first century? No, I did not. I said it was addressed to the people in the first century churches in the province of Asia. And, I pointed out that if everything centers around what happened in Jerusalem around 70 AD then why wouldn't the book have been addressed to the church in Jerusalem instead of the seven churches in the province of Asia? I don't think you have an answer for that.

But, that it was addressed to first century churches doesn't mean the entire book is only about them living in the first century. And, it surely isn't only about things that would literally soon take place or else the thousand years would already be over, the resurrection of all the dead would have already taken place, the judgment would have already taken place and the new heavens and new earth would already be ushered in. So, you're simply going way too far with this "soon take place" thing.

Also, your view is entirely dependent on the book having been written before 70 AD. I think most evidence points to it being written after that.

What would you consider the strongest evidence that it was written after 70 AD?

 

[Freedm]

Did I say it wasn't addressed to people living in the first century? No, I did not. I said it was addressed to the people in the first century churches in the province of Asia. And, I pointed out that if everything centers around what happened in Jerusalem around 70 AD then why wouldn't the book have been addressed to the church in Jerusalem instead of the seven churches in the province of Asia? I don't think you have an answer for that.

But, that it was addressed to first century churches doesn't mean the entire book is only about them living in the first century. And, it surely isn't only about things that would literally soon take place or else the thousand years would already be over, the resurrection of all the dead would have already taken place, the judgment would have already taken place and the new heavens and new earth would already be ushered in. So, you're simply going way too far with this "soon take place" thing.

Also, your view is entirely dependent on the book having been written before 70 AD. I think most evidence points to it being written after that.

Yes, most of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century AD. The resurrection of the dead did happen, there was a judgement at that time and the new heaven and earth have been ushered in, but I don't believe the thousand years are over just yet and I do still expect a literal return of Jesus in our future.

And if we're not to take seriously the book saying that these things would soon take place, then do we just ignore it? Is that what you're doing?

 

[Freedm]

I don't even know where to begin on all of that. Did you come up with all of that on your own or did someone teach it to you?

How can the thousand years have started in 70 AD when Christ was already reigning well before that (read Matthew 28:18 and Ephesians 1:19-23)? Also, Satan was bound before that. What is your understanding of the binding of Satan?

Christ may have been reigning well before that, but the saints were not. The scripture is clear that those who refused the mark of the beast came to life and reigned with Christ. So how then can you deny that the thousand years begins after the mark of the beast?

 

[Freedm]

Also, Satan was bound before that. What is your understanding of the binding of Satan?

My understanding of the binding of Satan is that he was no longer able to prevent the gentile nations from entering into the kingdom of God. This binding is allowing the kingdom to grow and fill the whole earth.

 

[Freedm]

To me, you went from one false extreme to another. Neither view holds up to scrutiny and that is why I am neither a futurist nor a preterist.

Not likely, but even if that was true, it wouldn't change how I interpret the book.

As I've pointed out before, if the events centered around what was going to happen in Jerusalem in 70 AD then it would make a lot more sense that the book would have been addressed to the church in Jerusalem or the churches in Israel instead of the seven churches in the province of Asia.

And you still have not answered my question as to why it would have been the case that it was addressed to churches in Asia instead of Israel if everything in the book centers around events in and around Jerusalem.

I believe those letters to the churches were just a small part of the book of Revelation, and each church received its own letter, but the entirety of the book was not written to those churches. The entire book was written to the Jews of Israel.

 

[Steve_K]

Because 99% of Revelation was about what took place in the first century.

Assuming Revelation was written 64 AD (instead of 95-96 AD) and was fast-tracked to 99% fulfillment only 6 yrs later isn’t consistent with God’s prophetic record. And the idea that Jesus has virtually nothing to say surrounding the events of his return and the culmination of world history is hard to fathom, esp considering the majority of humanity since Christ has been alive only in the past 200 yrs. The preterist viewpoint essentially relegates NT prophecy to the dustbin of history, instead of a living, breathing testament that still speaks to us.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Assuming Revelation was written 64 AD (instead of 95-96 AD) and was fast-tracked to 99% fulfillment only 6 yrs later isn’t consistent with God’s prophetic record. And the idea that Jesus has virtually nothing to say surrounding the events of his return and the culmination of world history is hard to fathom, esp considering the majority of humanity since Christ has been alive only in the past 200 yrs. The preterist viewpoint essentially relegates NT prophecy to the dustbin of history, instead of a living, breathing testament that still speaks to us.

Very well put!

 

[sovereigngrace]

My understanding of the binding of Satan is that he was no longer able to prevent the gentile nations from entering into the kingdom of God. This binding is allowing the kingdom to grow and fill the whole earth.

I agree.

 

[Steve_K]

Partial Preterism vs. Futurism debate. I listened only to Samuel M. Frost's arguments (Th.M, author of a few books on the topic) to hear the partial preterist viewpoint but remain totally unconvinced. His arguments lack cogency/consistency and he appears unsure of himself and scatterbrained throughout much of the debate.

Begins at 9:24. Cross-examination at 2:11:30

 

[Timtofly]

What's happening on the earth right now is the mustard seed is in the process of growing into the largest tree in the garden.

That is definitely not the 1000 years of Revelation 20. The church, yes.

 

[BABerean2]

Partial Preterism vs. Futurism debate. I listened only to Samuel M. Frost's arguments (Th.M, author of a few books on the topic) to hear the partial preterist viewpoint but remain totally unconvinced. His arguments lack cogency/consistency and he appears unsure of himself and scatterbrained throughout much of the debate.

Begins at 9:24. Cross-examination at 2:11:30

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　
Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)


Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　


Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)


Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　


Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)


Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)


Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　
Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　
Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　
Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　
Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　
Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　
(Look at the reference to Hanukkah in John 10:22, if you want to know what the Jews of Jesus time understood about Antiochus Ephiphanes attacking the city during 167 BC, when his forces killed thousands of Jews, and stopped the sacrifices. Those two things also happened during 70AD.)


Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. (See also Luke 23:28-31.)　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)


Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ. Paul also referred to this time period in Romans 11:25, and Acts 28:28.)


The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　


Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　


Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

[Freedm]

Assuming Revelation was written 64 AD (instead of 95-96 AD) and was fast-tracked to 99% fulfillment only 6 yrs later isn’t consistent with God’s prophetic record. And the idea that Jesus has virtually nothing to say surrounding the events of his return and the culmination of world history is hard to fathom, esp considering the majority of humanity since Christ has been alive only in the past 200 yrs. The preterist viewpoint essentially relegates NT prophecy to the dustbin of history, instead of a living, breathing testament that still speaks to us.

Preterism does indeed relegate most of Bible prophecy to history, but I wouldn't call it a dust bin. I think the fact that we can see that prophecy was so clearly fulfilled is not only inspiring but encouraging, and most importantly helps us to understand God's plan and takes away our fear of "the coming wrath" and "the beast" and allows us to focus on our mission which is to grow the kingdom of God, in light of the promise that it will fill the entire earth. I think knowing that the wrath of God is behind us is very freeing and knowing that Christianity continues to spread around the globe is a cause of joy and celebration as it too is a clear indicator of the accuracy of Bible prophecy.

I will admit that having very little prophecy about our future is disappointing, but the Bible is not a "choose your own adventure" book that I can choose to apply prophecies to my future. If they've been fulfilled, then they've been fulfilled and that's not up to me. I have to read it in light of the way it was written, and the time period in which it was written. The truth is the truth and we can only accept it. The trick is just to recognize it.

 

[Freedm]

Assuming Revelation was written 64 AD (instead of 95-96 AD) and was fast-tracked to 99% fulfillment only 6 yrs later isn’t consistent with God’s prophetic record.

I'm not sure why you would say that. If it was indeed fulfilled in 6 years, then that literally is "God's prophetic record".

In fact, when Daniel was given a vision of events that related to "the distant future" and those events came to pass 400 years later, then if the book of Revelation is about events that "must soon take place" then surely those events would take place in far fewer than 400 years. So in that sense, preterism is perfectly consistent with God's prophetic record.

 

[Freedm]

Partial Preterism vs. Futurism debate. I listened only to Samuel M. Frost's arguments (Th.M, author of a few books on the topic) to hear the partial preterist viewpoint but remain totally unconvinced. His arguments lack cogency/consistency and he appears unsure of himself and scatterbrained throughout much of the debate.

Begins at 9:24. Cross-examination at 2:11:30

It's so easy to claim a prophecy perfectly fits the future when that future hasn't happened yet. You can literally imagine any scenario you want and make it fit. Even the left behind movie fits perfectly but how many of you really think it's accurate? Think about that.

Tying a prophecy to our past however can only be as accurate as our knowledge of the past and unfortunately, although Josephus gives us plenty of information, there are just a lot of things that we've forgotten.

 

[Freedm]

That is definitely not the 1000 years of Revelation 20. The church, yes.

How do you know that mustard seed does not refer to the 1000 years?

 

[Freedm]

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:
...
Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)

I would just like to add also, for the benefit of those who struggle to see a historical fulfilment of all that Jesus predicted, even the "fearful sights and signs from heaven" of Luke 21:11 was fulfilled as Josephus recorded in Wars of the Jews, book 6, chapter 5, part 3 where he described seven wondrous signs and miracles.

1. A fiery sword hung above the city for a full year.
2. A bright light shone around the alter for 30 minutes.
3. A heifer gives birth as it about to be sacrificed in the temple.
4. A gate requiring 20 men to open, opens by itself.
5. Chariots and soldiers are seen running in the sky.
6. Ghostly voice heard in the temple.
7. Man named Jesus cries "woe to Jerusalem" for seven straight years.

All the details are recorded in the Book 6, chapter 5, part 3 of Josephus' Wars of the Jews. And I'll paste them in here for those interested in the details and descriptions.

The Sword Above Jerusalem

Thus it was that the wretched people were deluded at that time by charlatans and pretended messengers of the deity; while they neither heeded nor believed in the manifest portents that foretold the coming desolation, but, as if thunderstruck and bereft of eyes and mind, disregarded the plain warnings of God. So it was when a star, resembling a sword, stood over the city, and a comet which continued for a year."

Bright Light Around Altar

Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, 21 [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.

Heifer Gives Birth

At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple.

The Gate Opened

Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner 22 [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.

Chariots in the Sky

Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

Ghostly Voice

Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

Woe, Woe to Jerusalem

But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, 23 began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus [for he was then our procurator] asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.