Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[Major1]

You told me once, you took the Bible literally, let me ask you, do you believe a day in the creation account is twenty-four hours, despite there being no sun to measure time by in the beginning?
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YES.

Isn't that what the Scriptures actually say?

Now you are opening up a totally different thread idea. Are you sure you want to discuss Creation or do you want to discuss the authority of the Word of God.

It is my opinion that the days of Creation are literal, 24-hour days because they are accompanied by ordinals (first, second, third, etc.). Of the more than 150 uses of yom with an ordinal in the rest of the Hebrew OT, just one (Hos 6:2) refers to something other than a literal day.

Also.. The days of Creation are literal, 24-hour days because of the use of the qualifier “evening and morning” throughout the Creation account. It seems to go without saying that while literal days have mornings and evenings, figurative days do not.

Then it would be wise to consider that the days of Creation are literal, 24-hour days because anything other than literal days renders the comparison with Ex. 20:11 a matter of equivocation.

Israel worked six literal days and rested for one literal day. God created for six literal days and rested for one literal day. The idea of God creating via a six-point framework and then resting eternally does not seem to offer much of a precedent for Israel’s seven-day workweek.

 

[Major1]

They had numerous signs, and although they were very religious, the majority did not believe in Jesus, why do you think that is?
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Why do you think that the children of Israel who came out of Egypt saw more miracles from God than any ethnic group of people in the history of the world, yet they did not believe God????

Why is that?

 

[Francis Drake]

Mark 16:9......
"...he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils."

"HE" in that verse is the Lord Jesus Christ.

If "He" was the one who gave the SIGN GIFTS to the ELEVEN Apostles, do you think that as God in the flesh who created ALL things, HE would have the ability to cast out demons.

You are seriously mistaken if you believe that casting demons out was limited to the eleven!
History shows it was regularly done in the early church.

"EVIDENCES OF DELIVERANCE IN EARLY CHURCH HISTORY - Casting out demons or evil spirits was routinely practiced in the early church.

Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book II, 32:4 (190 A.D.) - "For some (Christians do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe and join themselves to the church." DELIVERANCE is also implied to be done by Christians in Book II, 31:2.

Justin Martyr, Second Apology, Ch. 8 (153 A.D.) - This apology was addressed to the Roman Senate. "And they (demons), having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the Name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them."

Second Apology, Ch. 6 - "And now you (Roman Senate) can learn this from what is under your own observation. For numberless demoniacs throughout the whole world, and in your city, many of our Christian men exorcising them in the Name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, have healed and do heal, rendering helpless and driving the demons out of men, though they could not be cured by all the other exorcists, and those who used incantations and drugs."

Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew, Ch. 30 (150 A.D.) - "For we call Him (Jesus) Helper and Redeemer, the power of whose name even the demons do fear; and at this day, when they are exorcised in the Name of Jesus Christ, they are overcome."

Dialogue With Trypho, Ch. 76 - "And now we, who believe on our Lord Jesus, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, when we exorcise all demons and evil spirits, have them subjected to us."

Dialogue With Trypho, Ch. 85 - "For every demon, when exorcised in the Name of this very Son of God...is overcome and subdued. But though you exorcise any demon in the name of any of those who were amongst you--either kings, righteous men, or prophets or patriarchs--it will not be subject to you. Now assuredly your (Jewish) exorcists, I have said, make use of this craft when they exorcise, even as the Gentiles do, and employ fumigations and incantations."

Tatian, Address of Tatian to the Greeks, Ch. 16 (160 A.D.) - "Sometimes they themselves (demons) disturb the habit of the body by a tempest of folly; but, being smitten by the Word of God, they depart in terror, and the sick man is healed."

Theophilus, Theophilus to Autolycus, Book II. 8 (160-180 A.D.) - Theophilus is refuting the false teachings of Homer and Hesiod who were famous Greek poets. "...And this clearly appears from the fact, that even to this day the demonized are sometimes exorcised in the Name of the living and true God and these spirits of error themselves confess that they are demons who also formerly inspired these writers (Homer and Hesiod)."

Tertullian, Apology, Ch. 23 (197 A.D.) - "Let a person be brought before your tribunals; who is plainly under demonic possession. The wicked spirit, BIDDEN TO SPEAK by a follower of Christ, will as readily make the truthful confession that he is a demon, as elsewhere he has falsely asserted that he is a god."

Tertullian, Apology, Ch. 37 - "Who would save you (Roman Rulers), I mean, from the attacks of those spirits of evil, which without reward or hire we (Christians) exorcise?"

Tertullian, To Scapula, Ch. 4 - "The clerk of one of the courts who was liable to be thrown upon the ground by an evil spirit, was set free from his affliction (by Christians); as was also the relative of another, and the little boy of a third. How many men of rank (to say nothing of common people) have been DELIVERED from demons, and healed of diseases?"

Minucius Felix, The Octavious of Minucius Felix (210 A.D.) - "A great many, even some of your own people, know all those things that the demons themselves confess concerning themselves, as often as they are driven by us (Christians) from bodies by the torments of our words and by the fires of our prayer." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. IV, p. 190).

Origen, Against Celsus, Book I, 46 (230-254) A.D.) - "And there are still preserved among Christians traces of that Holy Spirit which appeared in the form of a dove. The Christians expel evil spirits, and perform many cures, and foresee certain events, according to the will of the Logos."

Against Celsus, Book I, 67 - "And the Name of Jesus can still remove distractions from the minds of men, and expel demons, and also take away diseases and produce a complete change of character..."

Lactentius, The Divine Institutes, Book II, 16 (250-320 A.D.) - "But they (demons) fear the righteous, that is, the worshipers of God, adjured by whose name they depart from the bodies (of people); for being lashed by the Christians' words, they not only confess to be demons, but even utter their own names." Also DELIVERANCE is mentioned in Book V., 22, and in The Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Ch. 51. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecturer, 16:12 (350-375 A.D.) - "For He (Holy Spirit) employs the tongue of one man for wisdom; the soul of another He enlightens by prophecy, to another He gives power to drive away demons..."

The Divine Institutes, Book V, 22 - "For these (demons), as long as there is peace among the people of God, flee from the righteous, and fear them; and when they seize upon the bodies of men, and house their souls, they are adjured by the Christians, and at the Name of the true God are put to flight. For when the demons hear of this name they tremble, cry out, and assert that they are branded and beaten; and being asked who they are, whence they are come, and how they have insinuated themselves INTO a man, confess it. Thus, being tortured and excruciated by the power of the Divine Name, they come out of the man."​

Deliverance has been practiced throughout Church history wherever men are led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Francis Drake]

First of all, I do not know and have never know a demon possessed person.

Given the massive level of unbelief you've expressed in this thread, its no surprise that you are completely blind to demonic activity.

In 50 years of Christian ministry and family counseling I have never seen or had anyone come to me who was demon possessed. I have had several who were "OPPRESSESD" by demons but never "Possessed".

Oppressed/possessed.
This is a completely spurious argument, which is why I never use the word "possessed". The simple fact is that demons can indwell people, and that is demonstrated by the fact that they get cast OUT.

I have been to Central America, Hattie, and Africa and seen witch doctors do "Demonic" rituals including Voodoo but I have never witnessed a DEMON Possessed person.

That just proves how little you understand the topic of demons. Anyone who does voodoo or any other witchcraft will always always always have demons in them. Where do you imagine their power comes from?

Secondly, a Christian can not be demon possessed. That is an impossibility.

Dear oh dear, more christian mythology.
I have been casting demons out of people for over 40 years, and every single one was a bible believing, spirit filled Christian.

Then, Personally, I think demon possession activities are found more in Hollywood movies than in real life.

Maybe you should stop looking at Hollywood and start attending to the needs of the church.

I have lost count of the Christians whose lives have been turned around when they have been delivered from the demons controlling their lives. Many of these lovely believers have been struggling for decades under various demonic bondages, but just like we see Jesus did in the gospels, the evil spirits can be driven out of them by any faithful christian.

 

[Guojing]

We live long after Christ, so we cannot walk by sight, we have to walk by faith, all of us, so the big question is faith in who?

I have asked you this question several times, but never had an answer.
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Didn’t I already answered your question with a yes? Are you asking another one now?

 

[Guojing]

They had numerous signs, and although they were very religious, the majority did not believe in Jesus, why do you think that is?
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They were expecting Jesus to overthrow the Romans leaders but he did not.

If you look at Superman, the Christopher Reeves one, which had Jewish producers and directors, that is how Jews wanted to view their messiah as.

 

[Guojing]

It is a sign that the vessel used was a man of God. We do not see many miracles today do we, I wonder why. Do you have any suggestions?
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As I have said earlier in the thread, Israel the nation has fallen, so if signs are meant for them, it ceased with their fall.

 

[Albion]

They were expecting Jesus to overthrow the Romans leaders but he did not.

That's very true...and also evident in the contents of the New Testament. They were expecting a political Messiah.

Even his own Apostles had to be corrected by Jesus when they started talking as though that was the nature of the Messiah.

 

[1an]

I will be very glad to answer your question.

First of all, your question is flawed and can not be answered as it is not relevant.

"We live long after Christ makes no sense! Christ is alive and well and sits at the right hand of the Father in Heaven according to the Word of God. IF we live at all, we live by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ or we do not live at all.

The phrase simply means that we know Jesus, even though He is not physically here with us. Jesus is in heaven, and we won’t see Him until we get there. Living by faith and not by sight is the normal Christian experience. Because we have never met Jesus face to face. We only know Jesus through the Bible, and through our experiences with Him.
We must live by FAITH and not by SIGHT.

I did actually say we live by faith and not by sight.

I was addressing Gu.
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[1an]

As I have said earlier in the thread, Israel the nation has fallen, so if signs are meant for them, it ceased with their fall.

God has deserted Israel in favour of the Gentiles
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[1an]

YES.

Isn't that what the Scriptures actually say?

Now you are opening up a totally different thread idea. Are you sure you want to discuss Creation or do you want to discuss the authority of the Word of God.

It is my opinion that the days of Creation are literal, 24-hour days because they are accompanied by ordinals (first, second, third, etc.). Of the more than 150 uses of yom with an ordinal in the rest of the Hebrew OT, just one (Hos 6:2) refers to something other than a literal day.

Also.. The days of Creation are literal, 24-hour days because of the use of the qualifier “evening and morning” throughout the Creation account. It seems to go without saying that while literal days have mornings and evenings, figurative days do not.

Then it would be wise to consider that the days of Creation are literal, 24-hour days because anything other than literal days renders the comparison with Ex. 20:11 a matter of equivocation.

Israel worked six literal days and rested for one literal day. God created for six literal days and rested for one literal day. The idea of God creating via a six-point framework and then resting eternally does not seem to offer much of a precedent for Israel’s seven-day workweek.

Dear me. It would take a long time to go through all the error. I will simply say for starters that it takes millions of years for light from the stars to reach earth. When Abraham looked at the stars, the earth was already millions of years old.
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[1an]

Why do you think that the children of Israel who came out of Egypt saw more miracles from God than any ethnic group of people in the history of the world, yet they did not believe God????

Why is that?

They had, and still do have, another god. John 8:44 tells you who their father god is.
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[1an]

They were expecting Jesus to overthrow the Romans leaders but he did not.

If you look at Superman, the Christopher Reeves one, which had Jewish producers and directors, that is how Jews wanted to view their messiah as.

They were expecting a warrior god, someone like Moses. We know that.
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[1an]

As I have said earlier in the thread, Israel the nation has fallen, so if signs are meant for them, it ceased with their fall.

And we do not see many signs either, for the simple reason the Gentile nations are also far away from God.
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[Guojing]

God has deserted Israel in favour of the Gentiles
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It was always in God’s plan but he will be back for Israel later, as Romans 11 stated.

 

[Guojing]

And we do not see many signs either, for the simple reason the Gentile nations are also far away from God.
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There are no signs for us, we have the completed scriptures and we are to place our faith in that.

 

[Guojing]

That's very true...and also evident in the contents of the New Testament. They were expecting a political Messiah.

Even his own Apostles had to be corrected by Jesus when they started talking as though that was the nature of the Messiah.

I don’t blame them though. In the 400 years of silence from Malachi to John the Baptist, Rome conquered them and the great general Pompey actually entered the holy of holies.

That must have ranked as the greatest insults from gentiles to them. So when Zechariah, John dad, spoke in Luke 1:67-75) on what the Jews expected from their messiah, to deliver them from their enemies, that was clear and understandable.

 

[1an]

There are no signs for us, we have the completed scriptures and we are to place our faith in that.

We have the scriptures and don't they get torn to shreds by the various 'faiths.'

I would quite like miracle on my knee as well.
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[Guojing]

We have the scriptures and don't they get torn to shreds by the various 'faiths.'

I would quite like miracle on my knee as well.
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I understand. Paul’s advice to us in given in romans 8:18 onwards

 

[1an]

I understand. Paul’s advice given to us in romans 8:18 onwards

We need a hope, but those false teachers who say the earth is only 10,000 years old when it takes millions of years for water to gouge out the Grand Canyon and only 300 million years for coal to form, are turning the Bible into a series of fairy stories. Nobody will believe it anymore. They are destroying Christianity from the foundation up. May I point the reader's attention to the top line of my signature.
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