Poll: When Are The Orthodox Jews Saved?

[Spiritual Jew]

Not yet. But @BABerean2 said something else to someone else in someone else's thread the other day which made me realize that what he said is true, and crucial to how the text should be understood.

He pointed out that too many people read the word "so" in Romans 11:26 as "then", as though it is telling us about what comes after the full number of the Gentiles has come in. But the word "so" in verse 26, when I looked at it, means "in this way (referring to what precedes or follows):--after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like(-wise), no more, on this fashion(-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.

So I would say it means, "in this manner all Israel shall be saved", all Israel meaning the Gentiles (whom I believe God considers the house of Israel) and the Jews (the house of Judah) who repent of their unbelief and place their faith and trust in Christ. OR ""therefore all Israel shall be saved in this manner".

But when I say "not yet" I mean "not yet". I have to think about it and compare more first.

Yes, I agree that it means "in this manner all Israel shall be saved. It was in the manner that Isaiah prophesied about in Isaiah 59:20-21, which Paul was quoting.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

What other covenant did God make that would take away sins except the new covenant? Compare what Paul said above to this:

Matthew 26:27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Jesus was, of course, referring to the new covenant there (described in more detail in Hebrews 8-12). So, what Paul was saying, and what Isaiah was prophesying about, is that the manner in which "all Israel" would be saved is by way of the new covenant of Christ's blood which is the only way anyone's sins can be taken away.

And, we know that people's sin have been taken away by the blood of the new covenant for a long time already, right?

And then compare Romans 11:26-27 to the following also:

This is Peter speaking to the people of Israel at the temple:

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Notice he said that all of the prophets "foretold of these days" when God would raised up his Son Jesus to turn Israel from their iniquities. That would include Isaiah who said "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob". Compare that to what Peter said in Acts 3:26. The fulfillment of the prophecy was clearly already starting to happen a long time ago in the manner Isaiah prophesied about.

And, of course, it has to be considered which Israel Paul is talking about of which all would be saved. The answer to that is found in Romans 9:6-8.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, I agree that it means "in this manner all Israel shall be saved. It was in the manner that Isaiah prophesied about in Isaiah 59:20-21, which Paul was quoting.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

What other covenant did God make that would take away sins except the new covenant? Compare what Paul said above to this:

Matthew 26:27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Jesus was, of course, referring to the new covenant there (described in more detail in Hebrews 8-12). So, what Paul was saying, and what Isaiah was prophesying about, is that the manner in which "all Israel" would be saved is by way of the new covenant of Christ's blood which is the only way anyone's sins can be taken away.

And, we know that people's sin have been taken away by the blood of the new covenant for a long time already, right?

And then compare Romans 11:26-27 to the following also:

This is Peter speaking to the people of Israel at the temple:

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Notice he said that all of the prophets "foretold of these days" when God would raised up his Son Jesus to turn Israel from their iniquities. That would include Isaiah who said "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob". Compare that to what Peter said in Acts 3:26. The fulfillment of the prophecy was clearly already starting to happen a long time ago in the manner Isaiah prophesied about.

And, of course, it has to be considered which Israel Paul is talking about of which all would be saved. The answer to that is found in Romans 9:6-8.

Yes. What you just said now is also extremely important: Romans 11:26 is taken directly from Isaiah 59:20-21. VERY important. I've never seen that before or even thought of it. That does make sense. The sacrifice of Christ was made once for all, not multiple times, neither will He ever die again for the sins of any nation, because it is finished.

It's also this next part of the passage that can be taken up in different ways (the words "they are" in the following verse do not appear in the Greek text but are inserted into the English text for clarity):

"Indeed as regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes. But as regards the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Romans 11:28

But it can only be taken up to mean something that lies only in the future or when "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" if we forget that Paul had just said,

23 "And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the natural wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more these being according to nature will be grafted into their own olive-tree?" Romans 11:23-24

Therefore they are enemies as regards the gospel but IF they do not continue in unbelief then they are grafted into "their own olive tree" because they are beloved for the fathers' sakes, and because God has had mercy on the Gentiles through their unbelief, therefore God is just, and has mercy on them if they repent of their unbelief through the mercy shown the Gentiles.

And as you pointed out, it's an ongoing thing (and has been since Calvary) - and we have the proof of this even over the last 50 years because over the last 50 years thousands of Jews living in different nations have been brought to faith in Christ - so how can it be a "prophecy" that has been reserved for a future time, when we know that (a) Christ died once for all; and (b) at any time since the first century after Calvary, they will be grafted in again if they do not continue in unbelief?

It's making a lot more sense now. It's very important to mention that Romans 11:26 is taken directly from Isaiah 59:20-21, which refers to Christ's once-for-all redemption of all Israel.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes. What you just said now is also extremely important: Romans 11:26 is taken directly from Isaiah 59:20-21. VERY important. I've never seen that before or even thought of it. That does make sense. The sacrifice of Christ was made once for all, not multiple times, neither will He ever die again for the sins of any nation, because it is finished.

Yes, I agree that it's very important for people to see that. Some people think that Paul was giving a new prophecy there about the future, but instead he was quoting Isaiah's prophecy and explaining that it was in the manner that Isaiah prophesied that "all Israel" would be saved which is by way of the new covenant of Christ's shed blood that takes away our sins.

It's also this next part of the passage that can be taken up in different ways (the words "they are" in the following verse do not appear in the Greek text but are inserted into the English text for clarity):

"Indeed as regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes. But as regards the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Romans 11:28

But it can only be taken up to mean something that lies only in the future or when "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" if we forget that Paul had just said,

23 "And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the natural wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more these being according to nature will be grafted into their own olive-tree?" Romans 11:23-24

Therefore they are enemies as regards the gospel but IF they do not continue in unbelief then they are grafted into "their own olive tree" because they are beloved for the fathers' sakes, and because God has had mercy on the Gentiles through their unbelief, therefore God is just, and has mercy on them if they repent of their unbelief through the mercy shown the Gentiles.

And as you pointed out, it's an ongoing thing (and has been since Calvary) - and we have the proof of this even over the last 50 years because over the last 50 years thousands of Jews living in different nations have been brought to faith in Christ - so how can it be a "prophecy" that has been reserved for a future time, when we know that (a) Christ died once for all; and (b) at any time since the first century after Calvary, they will be grafted in again if they do not continue in unbelief?

Very good point. Unfortunately, some think that all of the nation of Israel was broken off back then in Paul's day and then all of the nation of Israel will be saved in the future. That is not at all what Paul was teaching in Romans 11. He said that there was a remnant of believers in his day (Romans 11:5) and there has been ever since. And you made the excellent point here that in more recent years thousand of Jews have been saved, which is a great thing. So, how can their salvation be seen only as a future event in light of all of this?

It's making a lot more sense now. It's very important to mention that Romans 11:26 is taken directly from Isaiah 59:20-21, which refers to Christ's once-for-all redemption of all Israel.

Again, I agree. I think many miss that and think that Paul is making a brand new prophecy there rather than merely explaining the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy.

 

[nolidad]

He has said that before. I'm not making it up.

Please explain to me why animal sacrifices would be reinstituted in light of what is taught in Hebrews 8-10, which is that one Christ made His "once for all" sacrifice, it made the old covenant animal sacrifices that foreshadowed His sacrifice obsolete.

Am I calling him a "Rejector" and telling him he doesn't believe what Paul wrote or doesn't believe God? I'm not making false accusations like that about him.

Well if He did say that before, He is just as misled as those who believe that God has no millenial kingdom plan for Israel as a nation. both are unbiblical.

I can only tell you they will. God said so! I do not believe they will be the sin offering, but the numerous other offerings.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Roman 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The Jews, Israel, become Christians in the middle of the 7 years, then persecuted for 42 months, until Jesus returns at the end of the 7 years, to deliver them. Saved and delivered.

 

[nolidad]

He has said it before, so stop commenting on things that you know nothing about.

It is your banning- so go for it.

 

[BABerean2]

Well if He did say that before, He is just as misled as those who believe that God has no millenial kingdom plan for Israel as a nation. both are unbiblical.

Pastor Wagner on the Premill doctrine:
Destroying Premillennialism in Less Than 10 Minutes - YouTube


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[nolidad]

Pastor Wagner on the Premill doctrine:
Destroying Premillennialism in Less Than 10 Minutes - YouTube


.

I thought the Hinda Tuscon commercial was more believable.

Besides who died and made Pasto Wagners allegorical re-interpretations the Word of God instead of the Word of God as God inspired it?

Still haven't forgotten. YOu said teh New Covenant is FULFILLED:

so for about the 26 th time please show me when the terms of the new covenant went into effect.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

After all if it is fulfilled then you have a 2 people of God doctrine for the house of Israel and the house of Judah :
1. Have Gods law written in their inward parts.
2. they are His people and He is their God
3. All Israelis' since Jesus resurrection know the Lord .

So according to your fulfilment time scenario- jews do nto need to accept Christ for they know god already.

that is the true 2 people of God you love to falsely accuse others of pushing.

 

[Blade]

He came to His own first they rejected Him. He does not will not treat them any different then He treats any other in this world. He showed them us the way He showed them us the truth and He showed them us the life. Everyone at some point get a choice.

But what we must look at is.. He is more kind more compassionate, loving on and on. The only ones lost are the ones that made that choice. They will fully know He alone is the way the truth and the life the only door in. And reject that.. there is no other way in.

 

[BABerean2]

Still haven't forgotten. YOu said teh New Covenant is FULFILLED:

so for about the 26 th time please show me when the terms of the new covenant went into effect.

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.



Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.



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[Guojing]

I thought the Hinda Tuscon commercial was more believable.

Besides who died and made Pasto Wagners allegorical re-interpretations the Word of God instead of the Word of God as God inspired it?

Still haven't forgotten. YOu said teh New Covenant is FULFILLED:

so for about the 26 th time please show me when the terms of the new covenant went into effect.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

After all if it is fulfilled then you have a 2 people of God doctrine for the house of Israel and the house of Judah :
1. Have Gods law written in their inward parts.
2. they are His people and He is their God
3. All Israelis' since Jesus resurrection know the Lord .

So according to your fulfilment time scenario- jews do nto need to accept Christ for they know god already.

that is the true 2 people of God you love to falsely accuse others of pushing.

They are using a circular argument, that all those who believe in Christ now, are the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

So Israel, by definition, are all the believers.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Evidently, there's some on this Forum that believe all those born into this world that did not believe on Jesus Christ during this present world are to perish at His 2nd coming.

God's Word does not teach any such thing, as Zechariah 14 with those who came up against Jerusalem are left over into Christ's future reign, and are made to go up and worship Him from year to year. Likewise, per Revelation 3:9, Jesus said He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" come worship at the feet of His elect in the future, for that has never... happened to this day.

They'll be saved the same way everyone else is, by being born again or not at all.

 

[Randy777]

As is the case for all we are sanctified by faith in Christ Jesus. So if any, (whatever they call themselves), believe in Jesus and call on the Lord then they will be saved from their sins. For in Christ alone is no sin.

The two witnesses will testify in Jerusalem for 1260 days as the whole world looks on. Maybe some will become members of the body of Christ because of the signs given in Rev 11. Certainly some in Jerusalem believe God.

At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[Guojing]

As is the case for all we are sanctified by faith in Christ Jesus. So if any, (whatever they call themselves), believe in Jesus and call on the Lord then they will be saved from their sins. For in Christ alone is no sin.

The two witnesses will testify in Jerusalem for 1260 days as the whole world looks on. Maybe some will become members of the body of Christ because of the signs given in Rev 11. Certainly some in Jerusalem believe God.

At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

During the Tribulation, there will be no more Body of Christ for anyone to be in. They will have to be saved, once again, thru the gospel of the kingdom which is Israel's program.

Faith alone, apart from works, will no longer be sufficient (James 2, Revelations 14:9-12)

 

[BABerean2]

During the Tribulation, there will be no more Body of Christ for anyone to be in. They will have to be saved, once again, thru the gospel of the kingdom which is Israel's program.

Faith alone, apart from works, will no longer be sufficient (James 2, Revelations 14:9-12)

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

The passage below also proves you are wrong.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of Christ's Church.


Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Nobody has ever been, or ever will be, saved by their own works.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


Who brought the Scofield Reference Bible to Singapore?

.

 

[Randy777]

During the Tribulation, there will be no more Body of Christ for anyone to be in. They will have to be saved, once again, thru the gospel of the kingdom which is Israel's program.

Faith alone, apart from works, will no longer be sufficient (James 2, Revelations 14:9-12)

The two witnesses preach in the city where their Lord was crucified.
I disagree with you. I don't hold to a pretrib gathering. It is known that the beast will make war with the saints. We read in the 1st resurrection of those beheaded because they refused to worship the beast and remained faithful to Jesus.

42 months those days were shortened for the sake of the elect.
It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

[nolidad]

Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.



Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.



.

Sorry BAB but not one of those means the New covenant is now fulfilled.

1. Blood is not the Covenant. It is the means that allows the covenant to be.
2. Tetelestai! Doesn/t mean the New Covenant is finished. It meant the price of sin has been paid for,
3. Mediator means the covenant has not even gone into effect yet! A mediator is one who is negotiating with one or both parties to come to agreement to accept the covenant. Once a covenant is fulfilled, there is no longer a need for a mediator!

Besides I am still waiting for you to show me when the terms of the new Covenant happened:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

God said He will do the following!
YOu say the Covenant as expressed above is fulfilled.
So when did God do the following that are in His New Covenant!

1. Put HIs laws in the inward parts of the house of Israel and Judah
2. He is now the god of Israel and Judah and they are His people.
3.Every Israeli from teh least to the Greatest know the Lord.
4. God has forgiven all their iniquity.

I am awaiting for you to show th e fulfilment of these so you can defend your 2 people of God doctrine.

 

[nolidad]

They are using a circular argument, that all those who believe in Christ now, are the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

So Israel, by definition, are all the believers.

Which of course has never been, is not, nor will ever be true, but that doesn't stop these teachers from rewriting the Word of God!

 

[BABerean2]

Besides I am still waiting for you to show me when the terms of the new Covenant happened:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The text of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is quoted word-for-word by the author of the Book of Hebrews within Hebrews 8:6-13, and the first verse starts with the word "now".

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


Any unbiased witness would say this shows the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34.
However, you are not an unbiased witness because this passage kills Dispensational Theology.
Therefore, you continue to be in that river in Egypt up past your eyeballs.
You are in denial.



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[Jamdoc]

As is the case for all we are sanctified by faith in Christ Jesus. So if any, (whatever they call themselves), believe in Jesus and call on the Lord then they will be saved from their sins. For in Christ alone is no sin.

The two witnesses will testify in Jerusalem for 1260 days as the whole world looks on. Maybe some will become members of the body of Christ because of the signs given in Rev 11. Certainly some in Jerusalem believe God.

At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

I see that too, I can just see people crying out "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" in that moment. Because Jesus said He would not come back until they say precisely that (well, the Hebrew Baruch habas B'shem Adonai at least)