Who is "National Israel"?

[BABerean2]

Do you see a calendar date on this chart, anywhere? It is the infallible timeline framework for end times events, based on the reverse ORDER of events found in Ezekiel 39, of Jesus having returned to this earth and speaking in verses 21-29.

How about my other two charts, built on that framework? Do you see a calendar date on any of those?

Differently, a historic timeline chart of fulfilled prophecy events has dates on them. My charts are futurist charts.

When someone comes up with a chart and insists it is built upon an "infallible timeline framework", we should all view it with an eye of skepticism.

This is the same guy who cannot find anyone on the planet who agrees with his interpretation of Daniel 9:27, and now he claims to have an "infallible" interpretation of another passage.

What is wrong with this picture?

.

 

[Douggg]

When someone comes up with a chart and insists it is built upon an "infallible timeline framework", we should all view it with an eye of skepticism.

What you should do is look at the text for the basis of the claim.

 

[Zao is life]

You are working in forward order and how you see things today. And assuming your interpretation of what is meant by unwalled villages is correct.

Do you see a calendar date on this chart, anywhere? It is the infallible timeline framework for end times events, based on the reverse ORDER of events found in Ezekiel 39, of Jesus having returned to this earth and speaking in verses 21-29.

How about my other two charts, built on that framework? Do you see a calendar date on any of those?

Differently, a historic timeline chart of fulfilled prophecy events has dates on them. My charts are futurist charts.

View attachment 290416View attachment 290417
View attachment 290418

OK well, disciple of Jesus and Christian thinker, we've already discovered that we don't agree on where you've placed Daniel 9:27 and Ezekiel 39 in time in your charts, so I won't comment again because we'll both just repeat the same things again.

 

[TribulationSigns]

That's not the controlling driving factor. The controlling driving factor is Jesus Himself speaking in the text in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth, and having executed judgment on the heathen in Ezekiel 39:17-18, the Armageddon event.

Which the preconditions in Ezekiel 38 for the Gog/Magog have to be interpreted and understood accordingly.

The Jews came out of the nations in 1948 back to the land of Israel. In recent years, the Jews have not been in any big wars.

So they are living in peace right now.

Ezekiel 38/39 has nothing to do with 1948/1967 national Israel! This is a pipe dream of the Zionism premillennialism.

The New Testament congregation of Israel at this side of the Cross is the CHURCH, where the MOUNTAIN represents! Not a literal mountain, but the kingdom of God. Where the representation of the kingdom can be found. The church's enemies are not Russia, Iran or Palestinians but the spiritual army of False prophets and Christs coming with lyings signs and wonders attacking the camps of the Saints. You are focus too much on Newspaper Eschatology - - which you are using world events that were read into Bible Prophecy to fit your doctrine instead of discerning signs within God's congregations all over the world.

Wake up and smell the spiritual coffee.

 

[TribulationSigns]

So Ezekiel chapters 38-39 have to be interpreted and understood accordingly. In other words: Only fulfilled once all the preconditions are met, which till now have never been met.

Here is something to think about...

Does the Bible speak of a radioactive cloud so huge that it is covering the sun, or is that again the "wild" speculation of an unsound hermeneutic? The Bible does speak of what makes the earth dark, and it is the cloud of

Ezekiel 38:8-12

• "After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
• Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
• Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
• And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
• To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land."

By comparing Scripture with Scripture, do you know who these people are, who are as a cloud to cover the land, the people who dwell in safety? Who sent these people as clouds? Are these people space clouds, radioactive clouds, or water clouds? Are they literally clouds to cover the land or symbolically, illustrating spiritual darkness? Does and did the moon literally turn to blood before the coming of Christ, or was that symbolic imagery? All these things are ignored by those who choose to disregard the fact that Christ came in Spirit and in truth. John the Baptist was the Elijah prophesied to come, just not as Judaizers and sundry Premillennialists think. ...but as God always intended.

The people gathered out of many people are Christians, who brought into the Kingdom of God which is the Church that the land and mountains represent. Not national Israel with literal mountains. The people coming like a storm of verse 12 are false prophets and christs that are overcoming the church, thinking they have no defense. It is because the unfaithful church welcomed the false prophets and christs into it and turned it into desolation. Their lying signs and wonders is to take spoil and take prey UPON GOSPEL. God used this army of false prophets and christs as a judgment against His unfaithful congregation. This is what Ezekiel 38/39 is actually talking about today! Therefore, Ezekiel 38/39 has NOTHING to do with National Israel as Zionism Premillennialists liked us to believe.

 

[BABerean2]

What you should do is look at the text for the basis of the claim.

Anyone who ignores the text of the New Testament, and claims their interpretation of an Old Testament passage is "infallable" in order to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work, should be viewed with skepticism.


.

 

[Zao is life]

Here is something to think about...

Does the Bible speak of a radioactive cloud so huge that it is covering the sun, or is that again the "wild" speculation of an unsound hermeneutic? The Bible does speak of what makes the earth dark, and it is the cloud of

Ezekiel 38:8-12

• "After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
• Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
• Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
• And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
• To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land."

By comparing Scripture with Scripture, do you know who these people are, who are as a cloud to cover the land, the people who dwell in safety? Who sent these people as clouds? Are these people space clouds, radioactive clouds, or water clouds? Are they literally clouds to cover the land or symbolically, illustrating spiritual darkness? Does and did the moon literally turn to blood before the coming of Christ, or was that symbolic imagery? All these things are ignored by those who choose to disregard the fact that Christ came in Spirit and in truth. John the Baptist was the Elijah prophesied to come, just not as Judaizers and sundry Premillennialists think. ...but as God always intended.

The people gathered out of many people are Christians, who brought into the Kingdom of God which is the Church that the land and mountains represent. Not national Israel with literal mountains. The people coming like a storm of verse 12 are false prophets and christs that are overcoming the church, thinking they have no defense. It is because the unfaithful church welcomed the false prophets and christs into it and turned it into desolation. Their lying signs and wonders is to take spoil and take prey UPON GOSPEL. God used this army of false prophets and christs as a judgment against His unfaithful congregation. This is what Ezekiel 38/39 is actually talking about today! Therefore, Ezekiel 38/39 has NOTHING to do with National Israel as Zionism Premillennialists liked us to believe.

I fully understand what you are saying. Fully.

However, my attitude toward what you say is "God knows whether or not what you believe regarding the beasts of the Revelation, the horns on its head etc etc, and what you say above, is true or not", because it does not ring 100% true to me.

So here's something to think about...

if what you say in the above post is not true, then you and whoever you get to believe your (super allegorical and spritualized) interpretation of the passages you quote will be under an illusion which could prove to be a strong illusion that Satan and his beast could use to catch the people of God off-guard when he sets up his satanic kingdom in the world using human kings and a human false prophet which will make war against the saints and overcome them.

However your attitude (which you have expressed to me already in another thread) is that if I disagree with you, it's because I do not have sufficient spiritual discernment (which implies that your level of spiritual discernment is deeper and higher than whoever disagrees with some or all of what you say), and also, if I do dare to say where or why I disagree with you, you have already taught me that I run a high risk of you coming back (as you have done before) with a truly 'Christian' condescending, obnoxious and rude retort, packed with insults.

So there is no point in my saying why I believe that while what you say in your above post could be true, it's not necessarily true, because you're 100% convinced you have the mind of God on all these matters because you have a deeper and superior spiritual discernment than I have (if I disagree with you), and I run the risk of condescending, obnoxious and rude retorts if I get into such a discussion with you in any thread.

 

[keras]

What I find is that people simply cannot visualize how different the world will be after the much prophesied Lord's Day of fiery wrath has struck it. Amos 1:1-15 & 2:1-5, Isaiah 30:26-30, Revelation 6:12-17 & 14:18-20

Surely we all can read the over 100 graphically described Bible prophesies that tell how the Lord will arise and will destroy His enemies? Isaiah 26:21, Romans 1:18
Several scriptures state quite clearly how the entire Middle East region will be virtually depopulated. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Hosea 4:3,+

This will allow the faithful peoples of God to go and live in all of the holy Land. Try to imagine what it will be like; as the Lord Blesses His people with prosperity and peace. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 32:15-20, +

The 'national Israel' in the holy Land then, will be every faithful Christian, from every tribe, race, nation and language. A vast multitude, in earthly Jerusalem as seen by John in Revelation 7:9.
Jesus will reveal Himself to them. 2 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 14:1

 

[keras]

events found in Ezekiel 39, of Jesus having returned to this earth and speaking in verses 21-29.

I agree with you on this.
But it is before the actual Return in glory as King of Kings, as described in Revelation 19:11.... There are many instances in Ezekiel's prophesies where the Lord says: ...then you will know I am the Lord. Ezekiel 38:23 So He will not be visible in the normal way.

Remember that Jesus is actually present with us now, Spiritually. Matthew 28:20
How it will be; will parallel how Jesus was with the ancient Israelites as they made their Exodus from Egypt. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

Jesus makes it perfectly clear why the Gog/Magog attack happens. Ezekiel 39:7

 

[Douggg]

Anyone who ignores the text of the New Testament, and claims their interpretation of an Old Testament passage is "infallable" in order to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work, should be viewed with skepticism.

Ezekiel 39 the infallible timeline framework for end times events includes Israel being attack by Gog/Magog and Gog's army being destroyed and buried in a mass grave in Israel.

The Two Peoples of God - created strawman terminology is that of new covenant theology movement's dilemma that Israel became a nation again, which was not expected by its founders.

 

[Zao is life]

What I find is that people simply cannot visualize how different the world will be after the much prophesied Lord's Day of fiery wrath has struck it. Amos 1:1-15 & 2:1-5, Isaiah 30:26-30, Revelation 6:12-17 & 14:18-20

Surely we all can read the over 100 graphically described Bible prophesies that tell how the Lord will arise and will destroy His enemies? Isaiah 26:21, Romans 1:18
Several scriptures state quite clearly how the entire Middle East region will be virtually depopulated. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Hosea 4:3,+

This will allow the faithful peoples of God to go and live in all of the holy Land. Try to imagine what it will be like; as the Lord Blesses His people with prosperity and peace. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 32:15-20, +

The 'national Israel' in the holy Land then, will be every faithful Christian, from every tribe, race, nation and language. A vast multitude, in earthly Jerusalem as seen by John in Revelation 7:9.
Jesus will reveal Himself to them. 2 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 14:1

I agree. people cannot visualize the vast difference between "now" and "then". When last have you heard someone quote the scripture,

"But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for those who love Him." (I Corinthians 2:9)?

It's the same difference described by the prophets that exists between the "now" and the "then". When Satan is bound, he is 100% well and truly bound. But Christ will first break the rebellion of the nations and smash them to pieces with His "rod of iron". And with Satan well and truly bound, the nations will not even think to start their nonsense again until Satan is released one last time to go out and deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth: Gog & Magog.

We need to ask, when God gave the same prophecies to various prophets who did not all live during the same centuries - prophecies which we all know have never been fulfilled in a literal sense, did He actually mean what He promised and promise what He meant? IMO the belief that in all these prophecies God was veiling a spiritual fulfillment which bears little resemblance to most of the things described by the prophets, however understandable this belief may be, it's nevertheless an over-simplification of God's gradual Revelation through His prophets (and that includes Revelation 20).

 

[DavidPT]

.then you will know I am the Lord. Ezekiel 38:23 So He will not be visible in the normal way.

And that is one valid reason why these events recorded in Ezekiel 38 and 39 have to transpire in this age before the 2nd coming, and not in the next age after the 2nd coming. Because like you reasonably pointed out, this indicates He will not be visible in the normal way, which makes zero sense if any of these events are meaning after He has returned, where He will then obviously be visible in the normal way.

 

[DavidPT]

Ezekiel 39 the infallible timeline framework for end times events includes Israel being attack by Gog/Magog and Gog's army being destroyed and buried in a mass grave in Israel.

I agree, except I disagree that there are two battles recorded in Ezekiel 39. The feasting birds after they are already seen as dead and buried is something that happens to Gog and multitude once they are dead, and while they are being gathered together for burial in order to cleanse the land. When they do this to cleanse the land, that happens during the millennium, not prior to it instead.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes. But they have never been returned to the land, as the prophets promised.

Amils believe this is because the land = the heavenly promised land, the NHNE.

Ahem. Have you never read this...

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. 13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Why would they want to return to the temporal land that will all be burned up when Christ returns (2 Peter 3:10-13) when they should be "longing for a better country--a heavenly one" and for the city God has prepared for them? You know, just like all the Old Testament saints listed in Hebrews 11 did?

Why would any believer, Jew or Gentile, look forward to a temporal piece of land instead of the much better eternal new heavens and new earth?

It's plausible because there isn't going to be enough room this side of the NHNE, but it's also not plausible because the prophecies are too specific and repeated over and over again, and there has never been this promised regathering into the land of their fathers where abundant blessing is experienced until Gog/Magog decides he's going to come against them and plunder to take a spoil.

Allegorizing and spiritualizing it all is as ridiculous in many ways as believing everyone's going to fit into one country stretching from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates.

It would be about as ridiculous as thinking that Malachi 4:5-6 would be fulfilled by John the Baptist instead of Elijah himself, right?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The following was asked of Jesus 2000 years ago right before He ascended back into heaven.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

What Israel does one think is being meant here? It has to be an Israel that needs the kingdom again restored to it, obviously. What Israel does that fit, since this infers that this Israel once had this kingdom restored to them in the past, but in the present, meaning when they asked Jesus this, this same Israel was in need of having the kingdom restored to them yet again, which means at the time of them asking Jesus this, this Israel meant, was in between a time having had the kingdom restored to them in the past and having it restored to them again in the future.

If we make Israel the NT church here, the following is what this verse would be saying. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to the NT church? Which then infers that the NT church once had this kingdom restored to them in the past, but in the present, meaning when they asked Jesus this, the NT church was in need of having the kingdom restored to them yet again.

Maybe others see that making sense of the text, I don't, though.

Is there some reason why you didn't include verse 8?

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The disciples may have had the nation of Israel in mind here, but that doesn't mean Jesus didn't have the spiritual Israel of God (Rom 9:6-8, Gal 6:14-16) in mind with His answer. He was not obligated to answer them based on their understanding of the kingdom nor was He obligated to explicitly tell them that they were mistaken in their understanding of the kingdom and who would inherit it.

He knew that they would have a full understanding of the kingdom once verse 8 was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, so He didn't bother telling them that they were mistaken and didn't bother telling them any details about the kingdom. He just told them that they would know when it came because it would be unmistakable because of what He knew was going to occur on the day of Pentecost. At that time the Holy Spirit began to give them enlightenment into the deeper things of God such as the nature of His kingdom and who will inherit it (the church, consisting of Jew and Gentile believers).

It is a bad mistake to not see verse 8 as part of His answer to their question. Do you understand that His kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36)? Do you understand that all believers, Jew and Gentile, are now in His kingdom? If so, then why would you think His kingdom would be given to the nation of Israel at some point? How would that even make any sense? Do you think He'll take it away from the church consisting of Jew and Gentile believers at some point and give it to the nation of Israel or something?

 

[keras]

Why would they want to return to the temporal land that will all be burned up when Christ returns (2 Peter 3:10-13) when they should be "longing for a better country--a heavenly one" and for the city God has prepared for them? You know, just like all the Old Testament saints listed in Hebrews 11 did?

2 Peter 3:10-13 will be fulfilled after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7
As will the prophecy of Hebrews 11:15
But for now and thru the Millennium, the Promised Land is all that area given to Abraham, so long ago. It is wrong to think the holy land has no significance now, or while the earth remains.

 

[Guojing]

The following was asked of Jesus 2000 years ago right before He ascended back into heaven.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


What Israel does one think is being meant here? It has to be an Israel that needs the kingdom again restored to it, obviously. What Israel does that fit, since this infers that this Israel once had this kingdom restored to them in the past, but in the present, meaning when they asked Jesus this, this same Israel was in need of having the kingdom restored to them yet again, which means at the time of them asking Jesus this, this Israel meant, was in between a time having had the kingdom restored to them in the past and having it restored to them again in the future.

If we make Israel the NT church here, the following is what this verse would be saying. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to the NT church? Which then infers that the NT church once had this kingdom restored to them in the past, but in the present, meaning when they asked Jesus this, the NT church was in need of having the kingdom restored to them yet again.

Maybe others see that making sense of the text, I don't, though.

Well said, the other clear reference would be found in Romans 10:1

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Again, if you replaced "Israel" with the NT church/Body of Christ, Paul would be contradicting himself, since the Body of Christ is already saved.

 

[Guojing]

So the apostle's question to Jesus immediately before He ascended was showing both their "ignorance" (misunderstanding of the prophetic scriptures) and their forgetfulness - but it was before the Holy Spirit came upon them on the Day of Pentecost, hence before the Church was even born.

Even after the Holy Spirit came, Peter only addressed the nation Israel in Acts 2 and 3 and deliberately excluded the gentiles.

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

[TribulationSigns]

o there is no point in my saying why I believe that while what you say in your above post could be true, it's not necessarily true, because you're 100% convinced you have the mind of God on all these matters because you have a deeper and superior spiritual discernment than I have (if I disagree with you), and I run the risk of condescending, obnoxious and rude retorts if I get into such a discussion with you in any thread.

I am not interested in your martyr complex. I am more interested in how you use Scripture to justify your interpretation/position. Do you really have the understanding of Ezekiel 38:8-12 by comparing it with the rest of Scripture to find God's interpretation as I have shown in other thread than coming up with an interpretation by mixing literal with spiritual as you often did?

Ezekiel 38:8-12

• "After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
• Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
• Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
• And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
• To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land."

Tell me. Do you know what the land of unwalled villages" that God talked about? Who those that dwell safely? Jews in modern nation of Israel behind their military mighty or the desolate of old testament congregation were the Elect in New Testament congregation NOW safely under the blood of Christ - the very temple He rebuilt after three days that was fallen? Exact what do the enemies take a spoil or take prey on? The material wealth of national Israel or the Gospel of New Testament congregation which the cattle and goods represent? Have you found out in Scripture what God has defined the cattle and goods as?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Well said, the other clear reference would be found in Romans 10:1

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Again, if you replaced "Israel" with the NT church/Body of Christ, Paul would be contradicting himself, since the Body of Christ is already saved.

What is your point here? Do you think Paul wasn't interested in Gentiles being saved as well?