What Do You Consider Evidence of the Supernatural?

[jamesbond007]

Lol. You claim you understood the problem, completely ignored it then, when Hans Blaster raised it in more detail in post #67, your response was "That's a good point" and then further demonstrated your complete lack of understanding. You can't even stick to your own (erroneous) claim that EMS was all energy. You now want it to be all energy except water (and presumably earth?).

That is one of the most ironic posts you have made. As before, I suspect you don't understand why.

If a person makes a good point, then I acknowledge them for it. Notice, you get nothing.

What I pointed out was that EMS contains all the energy in the universe. I don't know why you don't acknowledge how much power it is. The water discussion was what the Bible described, but it could've been gravitation waves or something else.

Look at how much power a supernova explosion produces and that is only a small fraction of the total energy in our universe. You could not explain how a natural cosmology could ever create such a thing. It would take what I think as something supernatural to create such power in our universe. Are you going to claim it was from quantum particles/waves? What else could create it?

"In a brief flash, the supernova of a single star can burn brighter than the billions of suns of an entire galaxy:

Supernova 1994D: NASA/ESA

That supernova at bottom left is not sitting in front of the galaxy NGC 4526. It's in the outer edge of that galaxy, 55 million light years away.

Last summer, astronomers found the most powerful supernova they had ever seen, an event called ASSASN-15lh. Their report published in the journal Science last week contained a measurement of the total power of this explosion: (2.2+/-0.2) x 1045 Ergs per second. That's an esoteric number phrased in unfamiliar units. What's the real meaning of this much power?

Astronomers look at a stellar object and measure its luminosity: the amount of energy it releases per second. (Further, this is a measure called bolometric luminosity: the total power radiated out across all frequencies of electromagnetic waves.) This sort of measurement is very familiar to us, as we use several scales that measure energy per unit time. A watt, a horsepower, and calorie burned per hour are human measures of power.

The numbers we're discussing are so big that we have to use exponential notation -- unless you want to read numbers like 220000000000000000000000000000000000000 watts.

A quick review on exponential notation: 102 = 100; 104 = 10,000; 3.5 x 104 = 35,000.

Let's start by getting rid of ergs. An erg is a ten-millionth of a joule. ASSASN-15lh radiated 2.2 x 1038 joules of energy per second, which happens to be exactly the definition of a watt. It's like the universe turned on a couple of 1038 W light bulbs. 1038 W is one hundred billion, billion, billion, billion watts. Now we've got a different problem: energy scales that are hard to imagine. What can we compare this to?

Converting a chunk of uranium smaller than a pea directly to energy via E = mc2 produced the nuclear blast that leveled Hiroshima. The energy of ASSASN-15lh is comparable to converting the entire moon to pure energy every 30 seconds. The biggest thermonuclear blast ever created was a billion trillion times less energy than one second of this supernova.

Our sun produces 3.8 x 1026 watts of power. So, this supernova was about 580 billion times brighter than our sun. The explosion radiated, every second, as much power as the sun has produced total over the past 18 millennia.

The Milky Way galaxy in which we live burns with roughly 8 x 1036 watts. For its few dying days, the supernova is nearly 30 times more luminous than our entire galaxy."

The Incomprehensible Power of a Supernova | RealClearScience

So not only is the energy needed, but that which the objects in our universe already have. Our sun, for example, probably won't use up all its fuel for a long time, but something could collide with it and release all that energy into a supernova. That would be the end of our planet and more. Probably our entire galaxy.

So what caused our big bang? Where did that energy come from? At least, I'm getting some idea of what people think happened now. They think it expanded into our universe even though it wasn't there or while infinite temperature isn't energy, something was causing it to to get hot. I can't imagine a singularity acting that way unless there was heat source causing all that high temperature. We would need some kind of trigger like a supernova explosion to start it off.

On the Biblical side, we have the Holy Spirit as infrared light, Jesus Christ as visible light, and God the Father as gamma ray radiation. It's how the Trinity is described as separate, but three equal beings in one.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

If a person makes a good point, then I acknowledge them for it. Notice, you get nothing.

Haha, yet again you can't bring yourself to admit you got it wrong. I don't mind, but you look incredibly churlish and petty minded.

What I pointed out was that EMS contains all the energy in the universe.

Except for earth and water......

I don't know why you don't acknowledge how much power it is.

Stop projecting. It's your mistake, own it.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

You could not explain how a natural cosmology could ever create such a thing. It would take what I think as something supernatural to create such power in our universe.

So in other words it is just argument from incredulity to you ?

 

[jamesbond007]

Haha, yet again you can't bring yourself to admit you got it wrong. I don't mind, but you look incredibly churlish and petty minded.


Except for earth and water......

Stop projecting. It's your mistake, own it.

No, I'm not projecting. Part of the problem is we consider the people in the past in different times. I'm sure you heard of YEC believing in a 6,000 year old Earth and scientific atheism believing in 13.7 B yrs old universe and 4.5 B yrs old Earth. So let's look at the people God interacted with compared to who you think. Then we may get a better idea on our differences. What I am getting at are the different timelines for the people involved. For example, in Biblical terms Adam and Eve and their children Cain and Abel were prehistoric people. Not like the stone age people from human history timeline based on evolutionary thinking. None of these people lived in caves. They already had pretty good tools for farming and using animals and fire was no big deal to them.

Here's an artist representation of Cain and Abel. They look dressed in stone age clothes, but they had farming tools, use of fire, and lived in wooden shacks. They knew how to farm. Now, the Bible was started to be written by Moses who came about a 1000 years later around 1500 BC. Adam and Eve started around 2500 BC.

Here's an artist representation of Neanderthals from 175,000 years ago I got from my evolution website. These people supposedly lived in caves.

So, we are discussing a book starting to be written with the Ten Commandments around 1500 BC. Even people in Moses' time were considered prehistoric. So with the Biblical timeline, people are much more sophisticated than you think. However, none would know about what we are discussing now.

Moses was considered a prehistoric human, but could write and was considered a royal Egyptian named Senemut.

Yet, they would understand enough about cosmology for their time and lived with the Egyptians who built pyramids and temples. They had a written language and were able to execute great works of art.

No prehistoric human on the human history timeline based on evolution would be able to do those things because they lived in caves and such. In other words, you have no evidence for people living in caves and what you believe. That's based on the myth of evolution. I found it hard to disbelieve in human history myself.

This is a movie, but it gives you a better idea of Moses time, i.e. when the Bible was first written and he's considered a prehistoric figure.

 

[jamesbond007]

So in other words it is just argument from incredulity to you ?

I'm not there yet, but that is why I am asking those who believe in the big bang in a natural setting to provide a scientific explanation. I have a difficult time seeing an Earth take around ten billion years to form. I wouldn't think all the planets formed this way would be spherical. How did they end up in just the right spot in the solar system to the sun? Where did the heat energy come from? Where did the water come from? The sun?

The following vid gives you an idea of the big bang theory compared to Genesis in the Bible. I don't think what he says is accurate about the big bang, but at least it gives some idea.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

I wouldn't think all the planets formed this way would be spherical.

It is not hard concept. This from NASA.

Why Are Planets Round?
The Short Answer:
A planet is round because of gravity. A planet's gravity pulls equally from all sides. Gravity pulls from the center to the edges like the spokes of a bicycle wheel. This makes the overall shape of a planet a sphere, which is a three-dimensional circle.

end quote...

But even if you disregard that and go with some religious claptrap how God just thinks perfects spheres are just so glorious or whatever it is noteworthy that planet are not really spheres either.

They are oblate spheroids

Shape of the Earth: The Oblate Spheroid - Earth How

Then you go with yeah sure God just loves oblate spheroids because.....more religious claptrap.....and then you wonder why people are laughing at you.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

No, I'm not projecting. Part of the problem is we consider the people in the past in different times.

I'm just snipping the rest because you don't understand the word 'prehistoric'.
Prehistoric doesn't just mean 'cavemen time'. The prehistoric period covers the whole era from 1200 BC back to roughly 2.5 million years BC.

I do also love that not once has an attempt been made to answer the question of what counts as evidence of the supernatural. By its own, the supernatural cannot have evidence because it is not natural.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

How did they end up in just the right spot in the solar system to the sun?

What do you exactly mean by “right spot” ? Just Earth being in Goldilocks zone or Saturn having current orbit around the Sun instead of slightly different one and what would it matter ?

If you go by how the odds are against Earth having intelligent life just figure what are the odds that you specifically are here in this thread.

First your ancestors had to meet, then just that bits of particular DNA had to be combined for untold generations until your birth and even then you had set of unique life experiences that led you to this thread.

How improbable do figure that is for you as that specific individual you are to be here today.

Yet there you are.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

No, I'm not projecting. Part of the problem is we consider the people in the past in different times. I'm sure you heard of YEC believing in a 6,000 year old Earth and scientific atheism believing in 13.7 B yrs old universe and 4.5 B yrs old Earth. So let's look at the people God interacted with compared to who you think. Then we may get a better idea on our differences. What I am getting at are the different timelines for the people involved. For example, in Biblical terms Adam and Eve and their children Cain and Abel were prehistoric people. Not like the stone age people from human history timeline based on evolutionary thinking. None of these people lived in caves. They already had pretty good tools for farming and using animals and fire was no big deal to them.

View attachment 290056
Here's an artist representation of Cain and Abel. They look dressed in stone age clothes, but they had farming tools, use of fire, and lived in wooden shacks. They knew how to farm. Now, the Bible was started to be written by Moses who came about a 1000 years later around 1500 BC. Adam and Eve started around 2500 BC.

View attachment 290057

Here's an artist representation of Neanderthals from 175,000 years ago I got from my evolution website. These people supposedly lived in caves.

So, we are discussing a book starting to be written with the Ten Commandments around 1500 BC. Even people in Moses' time were considered prehistoric. So with the Biblical timeline, people are much more sophisticated than you think. However, none would know about what we are discussing now.

View attachment 290058
Moses was considered a prehistoric human, but could write and was considered a royal Egyptian named Senemut.

Yet, they would understand enough about cosmology for their time and lived with the Egyptians who built pyramids and temples. They had a written language and were able to execute great works of art.

No prehistoric human on the human history timeline based on evolution would be able to do those things because they lived in caves and such. In other words, you have no evidence for people living in caves and what you believe. That's based on the myth of evolution. I found it hard to disbelieve in human history myself.

This is a movie, but it gives you a better idea of Moses time, i.e. when the Bible was first written and he's considered a prehistoric figure.

Blah blah blah. Completely missed the point, not relevant to the discussion and pretending to be insightful. Typical creationist post.

 

[Shemjaza]

No, I'm not projecting. Part of the problem is we consider the people in the past in different times. I'm sure you heard of YEC believing in a 6,000 year old Earth and scientific atheism believing in 13.7 B yrs old universe and 4.5 B yrs old Earth. So let's look at the people God interacted with compared to who you think. Then we may get a better idea on our differences. What I am getting at are the different timelines for the people involved. For example, in Biblical terms Adam and Eve and their children Cain and Abel were prehistoric people. Not like the stone age people from human history timeline based on evolutionary thinking. None of these people lived in caves. They already had pretty good tools for farming and using animals and fire was no big deal to them.

View attachment 290056
Here's an artist representation of Cain and Abel. They look dressed in stone age clothes, but they had farming tools, use of fire, and lived in wooden shacks. They knew how to farm. Now, the Bible was started to be written by Moses who came about a 1000 years later around 1500 BC. Adam and Eve started around 2500 BC.

View attachment 290057

Here's an artist representation of Neanderthals from 175,000 years ago I got from my evolution website. These people supposedly lived in caves.

So, we are discussing a book starting to be written with the Ten Commandments around 1500 BC. Even people in Moses' time were considered prehistoric. So with the Biblical timeline, people are much more sophisticated than you think. However, none would know about what we are discussing now.

View attachment 290058
Moses was considered a prehistoric human, but could write and was considered a royal Egyptian named Senemut.

Yet, they would understand enough about cosmology for their time and lived with the Egyptians who built pyramids and temples. They had a written language and were able to execute great works of art.

No prehistoric human on the human history timeline based on evolution would be able to do those things because they lived in caves and such. In other words, you have no evidence for people living in caves and what you believe. That's based on the myth of evolution. I found it hard to disbelieve in human history myself.

This is a movie, but it gives you a better idea of Moses time, i.e. when the Bible was first written and he's considered a prehistoric figure.

...but we have actual evidence for people living in caves.

We have signs of long term living and paintings.

We have remnants, remains, burials, tools.

We don't need evolution to demonstrate the existence of the stone age. They were the same modern human species as you and me, but didn't have anything like the technology of the people who wrote the Bible.

 

[jamesbond007]

It is not hard concept. This from NASA.

Why Are Planets Round?
The Short Answer:
A planet is round because of gravity. A planet's gravity pulls equally from all sides. Gravity pulls from the center to the edges like the spokes of a bicycle wheel. This makes the overall shape of a planet a sphere, which is a three-dimensional circle.

end quote...

But even if you disregard that and go with some religious claptrap how God just thinks perfects spheres are just so glorious or whatever it is noteworthy that planet are not really spheres either.

They are oblate spheroids

Shape of the Earth: The Oblate Spheroid - Earth How

Then you go with yeah sure God just loves oblate spheroids because.....more religious claptrap.....and then you wonder why people are laughing at you.

Wow. You are literally playing with fire insulting God the Father as well as me and what I bring which is the difference between the Biblical timeline and the human history timely (I'll post it below). Remember, before that what we were taught was an eternal universe. Us creationists accepted that. Now that we know that there was a beginning and the Kalam Cosmological Argument came into being, you still belittle the creationists. The anti-creationists or atheists think this all happened naturally.

The creationists didn't just start out as farmers and sheepherders. We had sheep and goats, and crop farmers from the beginning. You had the neanderthals who lived in caves presumably in Africa and it took millions of years just to get out of living in caves. Those are what you claim as your ancestors, so what kind of cretin are you? Evolution is this extremely slow process, so help me understand what a million years mean?

Anyway, you bring in gravity which we consider one of the four forces. Where did that come from? Does it also mean you are assuming the other forces? I'll try to focus on the science parts. It also means you assume our universe had to have a beginning and that a weak force, strong force, electromagnetism as well as gravity just started?

You already ignored my question of where did the energy come from when in our physical 3-D world, it can't neither be created nor destroyed according to Newton and Einstein. That's an insanely great amount of energy that is difficult to comprehend, but you insult me when you are someone who thinks they are superior to us goat and sheep herders and farmers. We're not the ones where our distant, distant, distant (hundreds of millions of years) relatives lived in caves and acted like monkeys.

I'm going to have to defer to the rabbi as what happened in the OT isn't as clearly explained with the NT.

"Fratricide

In Parashat Bereishiet, the Torah relates that Cain was a farmer and his brother Abel a shepherd. Cain initiated an offering to Hashem, consisting - according to Rashi - of poor-quality vegetables, while Abel brought "the best of his flock" (Bereishiet 4:4). When Hashem preferred Abel's gift, Cain grew angry to such a degree that Hashem had to warn him to put aside his frustrations lest he sin. At that point, Cain murdered Abel.

The Midrash reveals that Cain and Abel were fraternal twins. In Cain's amniotic sac there was a twin sister, and in Abel's there were two twin sisters. In the course of time, Cain married his twin sister and Abel married one of his own twin sisters. Cain demanded Abel's second twin sister; and when Abel refused, Cain murdered him.

Hashem asked Cain: "Where is your brother Abel?" (v. 9) and Cain responded, "Am I my brother's keeper?" (v. 9).

The Midrash teaches that Cain repented, and Hashem meted out just half of the punishment he would have received as a murderer. Cain would forever be a wanderer, incapable of settling permanently in one place (v. 12)."

Cain and Abel, Abraham and Sarah, an inseparable bond - Judaism

Aside from the differences of language, most of us believers should know the story of what happened.

++++++++

But I'm ignoring what you posted. You already know about the science and this is where once we as humans learn about "design" or "knowledge," i.e. taught about our natural world, then we can't undo it readily. Basically, we know the basic design of our Earth as a sphere. This is how our brains work. We get a general idea and then someone investigates and we gain knowledge and finally some proof like a photo of Earth. In the "prehistoric" times, either Biblical or secular, we didn't know that.

You had to bring in to try and make yourself look smarter than you are by pointing out oblate spheroid, but ignored my questions. I think I try to answer all of my detractors' questions. You couldn't help but toss in ad hominems is your disdain of me that I now know you are a cretin.

Here are the two different timelines from the Bible as well as human history. (I'm skipping pre-human history to make it easier to see the differences. With biblical history, humans are there from the beginning. That was the sole purpose everything else came into being. Notice with two different sexes, then one can populate an entire world.)

Bible
The Biblical Timeline

Human history
Human History Timeline

 

[Tinker Grey]

You are literally playing with fire insulting God the Father

If your god is insulted, let him say so. Judges 6:31

 

[Speedwell]

Wow. You are literally playing with fire insulting God the Father as well as me...

You do understand, I hope, that there is a difference.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Wow. You are literally playing with fire insulting God the Father

Not once have I ever burst into flames. Your threats are empty. Try to focus more on the facts and evidence here in the science forums.

 

[jamesbond007]

I'm just snipping the rest because you don't understand the word 'prehistoric'.
Prehistoric doesn't just mean 'cavemen time'. The prehistoric period covers the whole era from 1200 BC back to roughly 2.5 million years BC.

I do also love that not once has an attempt been made to answer the question of what counts as evidence of the supernatural. By its own, the supernatural cannot have evidence because it is not natural.

I probably missed how from some pre-knowledge of design that it leads to circular reasoning, a fallacy, but your post is a perfect example.

Ceterus paribus or other things being equal. I am skipping the pre-human history in order to focus on our differences one of which is young Earth versus old Earth. I learned the same of what you did of evolution up through university level.

You know what has happened with evolution, so you can point out the differences of prehistoric. But the Bible only points out from what was in the beginning. Otherwise, what's the point of posting two timelines if you're just going to accept the evolution timeline as the truth?

Let me give you some evidence of the Biblical timeline which has to do with the Greek gods. Now, we all know today that it was mythology. Do you know why we know this? I don't think you do. It's because of Peter and Paul and the other apostles went out to teach the Greeks. That's written in the Bible and it has filtered down through history.

Now, can you provide some actual evidence of "prehistoric" time that which you refer? We can't undo what we know and many accept as "truth."

 

[Ophiolite]

But the Bible only points out from what was in the beginning. Otherwise, what's the point of posting two timelines if you're just going to accept the evolution timeline as the truth?

A multiplicity of timelines is available to us:
fictional timelines, mythological timelines, religious timelines and a single scientific timeline. Only one of them is supported by a vast range of evidence, independently validated by many scientists, several of whom are (or were when alive) Christians.The scientific timeline is not at odds with Christianity, only with your narrow interpretation of a portion of Scripture.

 

[pitabread]

scientific atheism believing in 13.7 B yrs old universe and 4.5 B yrs old Earth.

The age of the Earth and universe has nothing to do with atheism.

 

[pitabread]

So in other words it is just argument from incredulity to you ?

More often than not it usually boils down to this.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

The creationists didn't just start out as farmers and sheepherders. We had sheep and goats

That’s a good note to start with when having discussions of cosmology. Always good to have your credentials available from the start so all participants have an idea what level of detail we can include in our comments.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I probably missed how from some pre-knowledge of design that it leads to circular reasoning, a fallacy, but your post is a perfect example.

Ceterus paribus or other things being equal. I am skipping the pre-human history in order to focus on our differences one of which is young Earth versus old Earth. I learned the same of what you did of evolution up through university level.

You know what has happened with evolution, so you can point out the differences of prehistoric. But the Bible only points out from what was in the beginning. Otherwise, what's the point of posting two timelines if you're just going to accept the evolution timeline as the truth?

Let me give you some evidence of the Biblical timeline which has to do with the Greek gods. Now, we all know today that it was mythology. Do you know why we know this? I don't think you do. It's because of Peter and Paul and the other apostles went out to teach the Greeks. That's written in the Bible and it has filtered down through history.

Now, can you provide some actual evidence of "prehistoric" time that which you refer? We can't undo what we know and many accept as "truth."

I have to say, I would not want to meet you in real life because you are clearly the sort of person who enjoys hearing the sound of their own voice.

And my post was not circular reasoning, and I would love you to show an example of it from my post. And I would also like you to show evidence for the supernatural while you're at it too.