Changing your mind about prophecy

[nolidad]

The 70th week will be fulfilled, completed when Jesus returns. The Antichrist will initiate the 70th week, acting as the King of Israel/messiah, but coming in his own name.

The weeks in Daniel 9 are shmettiah (spelled different ways) cycles and have a Jewish connotation.

Other than your diagrams, there is nowhere in Scripture that calls the Antichrist the King of Israel. He is the physical son of Satan, most likely Roman, which makes him a gentile and unless he could establish his lineage through David (and being a gentile he cannot) and not of the branch of David through Jeconiah- the priests would never anoint him as king.

and the 70th week or one seven is a sabbaton not shmitah . Taking the last shmitah year (2014) by Jewish reckoning and going backwards, you cannot correspond the "year of release" to the the beginning of the 69 weeks until their pause.

 

[Ki Won]

At 71, and the video, I have heard it all before, countless times.

And therefore your attitude is not conducive to learning which means you won't learn anything. You are fumbling around in the dark with no light with which to see..

You never answered my question, how much actual Bible teaching do you get from trained, learned or experienced Bible teachers? How many Christian books or academic theology papers do you read? How much actual learning do you do? I would venture you spend more time online than you do listening to sound Biblical teaching or reading Christian literature, am I right?

 

[nolidad]

Good Lord Nolidad, go and learn a bit of humility, "having taught [a lie] for over 30 years yada yada.." "All the explanations.. 45 years.." How blinkin arrogant of you to think because of your "experience" you know it all and everybody else is wrong!

Fwiw, you are bang wrong if you think the tribulation is 7 years, the beast is given 42 months, that's it! It says it right there in your Bible..

Well if I "tooted my own horn" it was to establish that I have studied hard and viewed many many opinions of the tribulation and not just spouting something as a novice. If you want to think I was being arrogant that is your option. No I don't think I know it all. But what I believe, I believe is 100% right. And I am always willing to be shown wrong if one presents a stronger argument from Scripture and not from philosophy, reason, or allegorical rewordings of Scripture.


and I guess you ignored part of my answer to you.

The tribulation period as it is commonly called is teh 70th week of Daniel and is a 7 year period. It commences when the Antichrist signs a covenant for 7 years with Israel and ends when Jesus returns and defeats the ANtichrist.

Teh "Great Tribulation" is the last 42 months or 3 1/2 years. This commences right around the time when the Antichrist is killed, resurrected, the false prophet erects the image that will speak and the mark instituted. Also it is when the anti christ as spoken by Jesus and Paul enter the holy of holies, sits on the mercy seat and declares himself as God. these events commence after the blowing of the sixth trumpet (the 2 nd woe)but before the blowing of the 7th trumpet as shown in REvelation 11.

As I believe that SCipture teaches that the first 6 seals are pre 70th week events. So that the 70th week of Daniel commences with the opening of the seventh seal. So the trumpets are judgments of the first 3 1/2 years and the bowls are the final judgment which take place in the last 3 1/2 years approx.

 

[nolidad]

And therefore your attitude is not conducive to learning which means you won't learn anything. You are fumbling around in the dark with no light with which to see..

You never answered my question, how much actual Bible teaching do you get from trained, learned or experienced Bible teachers? How many Christian books or academic theology papers do you read? How much actual learning do you do? I would venture you spend more time online than you do listening to sound Biblical teaching or reading Christian literature, am I right?

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe 2+2=4 ? If that is right, then do you need to learn anything else about that fact?

But a math equation is not the same as SCripture as we all know. But I believe in what I believe in. If I didn't, then there are psychological terms describing that! I have changed my mind many times over th eyears as I have learned from teh Word of God and examined claims from various "teachers". I am always willing to change what I believe if one can present a better argument from Scripture and not opinion or allegorical reinterpretations of the Scriptures. for one thought of Scripture there is the literal acceptance of what is written (including the grammatical use of symbols) and then there can be many many allegorical interpretations of the same passage with many different conclusions! I simply ask the allegorist why His opinion more authoratative than what is written or the many other who using an allegorical interpretive method reached different conclusions than they did.

 

[John Helpher]

No no no John, I agree with so much you have posted in this thread

I see that, and I appreciate it. It seems we have some important issues in common and I think that's fantastic. I believe there is a final, 7 year period and I'll explain why, though I think the most important thing is that we agree on a 3.5 year period of Great Tribulation which we need to prepare for.

the "final 7 years" thing is a falsehood, once those seals start going we have 42 months to endure until Jesus returns and only 42 months, that's what the Bible says and I believe the Bible NOT what man has added to it.

I must admit that I don't really understand the seals very well. I suspect they are a kind of broad overview of prophecy throughout history. I generally shy away from making pronouncements about them as they are really quite vague in terms of timeline and specific events.

However, there are other parts of prophecy which really are quite specific concerning timelines and events. For example, the final 7 year period comes from several references in Daniel which also correspond to references in the Revelation. One of the most important is Daniel 9:24-27. There's A LOT of information packed in to these 4 verses, but in particular verse 27 says, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate".

In Jewish prophetic vernacular, A year is split into 12, 30 day cycles. 7 years would be 2,520 days. Half of that would be 1,260 days. Also, a "week" can mean a period of 7 days or 7 years. Often it is only context which denotes the difference between the two and sometimes there is no context; we just have to wait and see which of the two it is. In this case, we've got plenty of context to illustrate that this usage is for 7 years rather than 7 days.

In the middle of this 7 year period, the AC causes the sacrifices to cease and through abominations makes it desolate. This is a reference to the 3rd temple. Up to now, there have been two temples, the first built by David/Solomon which was destroyed and then rebuilt. The second was the temple in Jesus' day which was later destroyed by the Romans. Since that time there has been no other temple, but, sacrifices can only be made in the temple which means, in order for the sacrifices to cease, there must be a temple in which the sacrifices are happening.

This reference to an "agreement" for one week (i.e. 7 years) has a double meaning. For the Jews, their emphasis is still on a physical building; they only want their temple. The temple is the epitome of their religious organization. It is all important to them. It is almost certain that they will end up making an agreement with the AntiChrist to rebuild the temple, which, consequently, is what will help add to the AC's popularity; peace in the middle east is a big deal. Anyone who manages to accomplish this will almost certainly be seen as a powerful, worthy leader. Certainly, the Jews will probably view this person as their long awaited messiah as a result, especially since the Revelation describes the Beast and his False Prophet as having the ability to call down fire from heaven and perform various "miracles", (although Paul refers to these as lying signs and wonders).

On the other hand, the prophecy starts by referring to the Messiah; it is the only place in the entire OT where the word "Messiah" is used so it's pretty clearly referring to Jesus. But, prophecy can sometimes have more than one meaning. Consider Revelation 11:2 "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

Here is a reference to the 42 months you mentioned, but it says a city will be trod under foot. For us Christians, we know what this actually refers to the body of Christ who are his temple rather than some physical location, and yet, also the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem will be defiled, as well; there is a double meaning.

While the Jews make an agreement with the AC to rebuild the physical temple, Jesus will make an agreement with his temple, the 144k by supernaturally communicating with them to organize them into 12 tribes for the final 7 years, of which, half way through, the AC will renege on his agreement and somehow profane the physical temple. However, the real abomination here will be his war against the saints.

The first 3.5 years will be a time of fake peace. Daniel refers to this as a time when the AC will "cause craft to prosper" (Daniel 8:25). The 7 trumpets of the Great Tribulation are pretty intense; there will be world wide destruction; it makes no sense that anyone would be able to "cause craft to prosper" in such disastrous times. This verse must be referring to a time just before the disasters strike.

Paul also references this when he says, " the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3).

There are also several other references in Daniel which refer to this 7 year period. Here are some of them:

Daniel 8:13-14
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

If we start with a 7 year period of 2,520 days and subtract the number referenced here, we arrive at a figure of 220 days. Presumably this is the time required to literally rebuild the temple.

Daniel 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

3.5 years is 1,260 days, yet this verse refers to a period of 1,290 days. Presumably this 30 day discrepancy is the length of time the AC will use to do whatever it is he does to profane the temple in some blasphemous way, as the verse refers to "setting up".

And, if you're interested, there is one other verse from Daniel 12:12 which suggests when the period of God's wrath will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet (or end of the 1260 days).

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Remember how the previous verse referred to 1,290 days? Here, the prophecy expects us to subtract that number from a new number, 1335, which is significant because it extends beyond the 7 year period we've been dealing with up to this point. If you do that, you get a period of 45 days.

It is almost certain that this 45 day period is the length of time during which two, simultaneous events will happen; the marriage supper of the Lamb up in "New Jerusalem come down out of Heaven" at the 7th trumpet, and the wrath of God being "poured out" on a spiritually "desolate" world below. Remember those words from Daniel 9:27?

Anyway, I'll leave it there for now as this post is already probably tldr.

 

[John Helpher]

Well prophecy is about jesus but it also reveals what happens on earth!

When people use "but" in this manner, it tends to suggest that they think the part after the but is more important than the part before the but.

"I love you, but I don't want to be around you". Which part of that sentence do you think is more important?

It really does come across as though your pronouncement that prophecy is about Jesus is just lip service, while the real importance of prophecy is all about predicting the future!

Until you're prepared to put Jesus at the center of all your interpretations, without any buts, you won't understand prophecy properly.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

For there is no warrant for us to take the 1,000 years as anything but literal.

In your mind. But, you are unable to reconcile that view with other scripture which teaches that Christ is reigning now, believers are priests of God and Christ in His kingdom now, there is only one day when all of the dead will be resurrected, one judgment day and all unbelievers will be killed on the day Christ returns. Other than all that, I see your point.

And simply hour and day need to be understood in teh context of teh speakers just like the 1,000 years.

Exactly. And I believe you are missing the context in all of those passages.

There is one time a 1,000 years is used figuratively and that is in Peter. It is so used for we see the phrase "a Day with the Lord IS AS a 1,000 years". clearly delineating it as symbolic.

Right. So, that proves it can be symbolic, so at least you acknowledge that much. Most premils don't.

Also in the Lords day the terms day and hour were often used symbolically of a passage of time that is undefined. Context and correlating passages determine whether day and hour are literal or symbolically used. We do not have the clear understanding that the speakers and listeners did for we are 20 centuries removed from how they used the language.

The phrase "the day of the Lord" can mean different things depending on context, but in terms of what it means in passages like 1 Thess 5:1-6 and 2 Peter 3:3-13, the context is clear. The day of the Lord in those passages clearly refer specifically to the destruction that will occur on the day Christ returns. There is no indication whatsoever in those passages that the day of the Lord they were talking about would last a long period of time. None.

According to Peter, the entire earth will be burned up on that day Christ returns, which would mean all unbelievers will be killed and Paul agrees because he said "sudden destruction" will come upon them and "they will not escape". Obviously, no one could escape fire coming down on the entire earth.

 

[John Helpher]

Good Lord Nolidad, go and learn a bit of humility, "having taught [a lie] for over 30 years yada yada.." "All the explanations.. 45 years.." How blinkin arrogant of you to think because of your "experience" you know it all and everybody else is wrong!

Get'em, Ki Won!

 

[Spiritual Jew]

YOu call yourself a spiritual Jew but do grave injustice to the Hebrew language by your wrong opinion.

You bore me with your pretend authoritative way of speaking. Anyone can say someone else is wrong. But, you have to prove it. And you continually fail to do that.

Let us look at the passage and see.

Daniel 9:26-27
King James Version

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now the rule of grammar of Hebrew (and English as well) is that when a pronoun occurs in a phrase, IT MUST refer back to its nearest antecedent that corresponds to gender and number! IOW HE is a personal pronoun so it has to correspond to a personal noun and not an impersonal noun )place or thing).
It is also masculine and singular so it has to refer back to the first personal noun or pronoun that is both masculine and singular. So knowing how this pronoun has to be understood, all that any reader has to do is simply go backwards until they get to the first singular masculine personal noun! It is not Messiah, but the Prince, described as of the people who will come and destroy the sanctuary! Given that fact, all we do is look at what people destroyed teh sanctuary anytime after this prophecy and VOILA! we have our answer it is a prince of Rome (which also has many options to choose from ).

This is nonsense. This is you pretending to be a Hebrew expert when everyone here knows that you are not. The He of verse 27 refers back to the last individual to be the focus of the prophecy and that is the Messiah. Nothing you said here changes that.

Also Jesus never entered into a 7 year covenant with Israel.

The new covenant was confirmed by way of His earthly ministry, death and resurrection and that would account for the first part of the 7 years. The rest of the 7 years confirmed the new covenant by way of the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit which was first preached in Jerusalem and throughout Israel before going to the Gentiles.

YOu and many others have allegorically tried to prove He did, but once again allegory is reading onto Scriptures things not there . I have seen teh game of spiritual twister several in this forum have made to try to get Jesus to fit the one who empowers and makes a strong 7 year covenant.

Now Jesus blood is the blood that establishes teh New Covenant, and He is currently mediating the New Covenant, but the new Covenant as SCripture declares it in Jeremiah 31:31-34 has not been fulfilled yet and that is an eternal and not a 7 year covenant.

You are not making any sense whatsoever. First, you correctly say that Jesus' blood establishes the new covenant and that He is currently mediating the new covenant, but then you deny the scripture that prophesies about the new covenant is fulfilled yet. What? That is beyond utter nonsense. It's heresy. What more could Jesus possibly do to fulfill the new covenant than to shed His blood as the once for all sacrifice for all people? Nothing.

Do you not believe that the old covenant is obsolete and that the new covenant is fully established?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Very good video. There are entire denominations that have the rapture taking place post-trib.. for example I belong to one that Christianity Today calls the 5th largest and fastest growing Christian denomination in the world. So it is not as though this message is not getting out one way or another. I thank you for posting that video it will do a lot of good.

Which denomination is that, Bob?

Seventh-day Adventist -

Here is a quote from Christianity Today in Feb 2015

In 2014, for the 10th year in a row, more than 1 million people became Adventists, hitting a record 18.1 million members. Adventism is now the fifth-largest Christian communion worldwide, after Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and the Assemblies of God.
from: Adventists: Can Ben Carson's Church Stay Separatist?

The church continues to add about 1.4 million in baptisms each year and is firmly in the camp of those who accept the post-trib, pre-mill second coming and rapture event.

 

[Douggg]

Other than your diagrams, there is nowhere in Scripture that calls the Antichrist the King of Israel.

The scribes and pharisees, referring to Jesus - "Christ the King of Israel", Mark 15:31-32, right in the text KJV.

Jesus is his name. Christ the King of Israel is his title and rightful appointment. Coming in the name of the Lord.

(Anti) Christ will be the King of Israel, but coming in his own name. And not rightfully appointed.

No-one knows the person's name, yet.

 

[Douggg]

And therefore your attitude is not conducive to learning which means you won't learn anything. You are fumbling around in the dark with no light with which to see..

You never answered my question, how much actual Bible teaching do you get from trained, learned or experienced Bible teachers? How many Christian books or academic theology papers do you read? How much actual learning do you do? I would venture you spend more time online than you do listening to sound Biblical teaching or reading Christian literature, am I right?

Some 6 year old kid comes to you, with his big fat first grade pencil and double lined spiral notebook which he had written in it A B C D M Q E X T...... displays it to you and tells you - you need to learn the alphabet, like him; and then gives you the same speech about it as you are giving me.

 

[BABerean2]

As I believe that SCipture teaches that the first 6 seals are pre 70th week events. So that the 70th week of Daniel commences with the opening of the seventh seal. So the trumpets are judgments of the first 3 1/2 years and the bowls are the final judgment which take place in the last 3 1/2 years approx.

Your problem with a future 70th week of Daniel is with Paul in Romans 1:16, and with Jesus in Matthew 10:5-7, and with Paul again in Galatians 1:14-18.

When was the Gospel taken "first" to the Jews, and how long was that period of time?


Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Peter speaks of that period of time in the text below.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


.

 

[Ki Won]

BobRyan said: ↑
Very good video. There are entire denominations that have the rapture taking place post-trib.. for example I belong to one that Christianity Today calls the 5th largest and fastest growing Christian denomination in the world. So it is not as though this message is not getting out one way or another. I thank you for posting that video it will do a lot of good.



Seventh-day Adventist -

Here is a quote from Christianity Today in Feb 2015



The church continues to add about 1.4 million in baptisms each year and is firmly in the camp of those who accept the post-trib, pre-mill second coming and rapture event.

Ahh yeah, I looked into them a few years ago after I was invited by a nurse who was caring for me in hospital, I decided not to take up the invite.

 

[Ki Won]

Some 6 year old kid comes to you, with his big fat first grade pencil and double lined spiral notebook which he had written in it A B C D M Q E X T...... displays it to you and tells you - you need to learn the alphabet, like him; and then gives you the same speech about it as you are giving me.

Your analogy is a ridiculous attempt at deflecting the question I asked you Doug. Why are you afraid to answer it?

I get on average around 35-40 hours of sound Biblical teaching from around 15-16 different Bible teachers every week, Doug, I specifically set aside the time for it. My family and friends know that weekday evenings are dedicated to Bible lessons as are Sunday afternoons and early evenings. They know the importance I place on receiving sound Biblical instruction and try to respect my wish not to be disturbed during those times I am listening to/watching lessons.

I want to know everything I can about my God and my Saviour, how can I know Him if nobody tells me about Him? "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" . I'm a disciple of Jesus, a disciple is a student, ergo I study, it's what we're supposed to do.. "Study to show yourselves approved".

I read Christian literature often, books, articles, studies, papers, etc..

Which of us is the 6 year old with the dodgy alphabet Doug?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I see that, and I appreciate it. It seems we have some important issues in common and I think that's fantastic. I believe there is a final, 7 year period and I'll explain why, though I think the most important thing is that we agree on a 3.5 year period of Great Tribulation which we need to prepare for.



I must admit that I don't really understand the seals very well. I suspect they are a kind of broad overview of prophecy throughout history. I generally shy away from making pronouncements about them as they are really quite vague in terms of timeline and specific events.

However, there are other parts of prophecy which really are quite specific concerning timelines and events. For example, the final 7 year period comes from several references in Daniel which also correspond to references in the Revelation. One of the most important is Daniel 9:24-27. There's A LOT of information packed in to these 4 verses, but in particular verse 27 says, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate".

In Jewish prophetic vernacular, A year is split into 12, 30 day cycles. 7 years would be 2,520 days. Half of that would be 1,260 days. Also, a "week" can mean a period of 7 days or 7 years. Often it is only context which denotes the difference between the two and sometimes there is no context; we just have to wait and see which of the two it is. In this case, we've got plenty of context to illustrate that this usage is for 7 years rather than 7 days.

In the middle of this 7 year period, the AC causes the sacrifices to cease and through abominations makes it desolate. This is a reference to the 3rd temple. Up to now, there have been two temples, the first built by David/Solomon which was destroyed and then rebuilt. The second was the temple in Jesus' day which was later destroyed by the Romans. Since that time there has been no other temple, but, sacrifices can only be made in the temple which means, in order for the sacrifices to cease, there must be a temple in which the sacrifices are happening.

This reference to an "agreement" for one week (i.e. 7 years) has a double meaning. For the Jews, their emphasis is still on a physical building; they only want their temple. The temple is the epitome of their religious organization. It is all important to them. It is almost certain that they will end up making an agreement with the AntiChrist to rebuild the temple, which, consequently, is what will help add to the AC's popularity; peace in the middle east is a big deal. Anyone who manages to accomplish this will almost certainly be seen as a powerful, worthy leader. Certainly, the Jews will probably view this person as their long awaited messiah as a result, especially since the Revelation describes the Beast and his False Prophet as having the ability to call down fire from heaven and perform various "miracles", (although Paul refers to these as lying signs and wonders).

On the other hand, the prophecy starts by referring to the Messiah; it is the only place in the entire OT where the word "Messiah" is used so it's pretty clearly referring to Jesus. But, prophecy can sometimes have more than one meaning. Consider Revelation 11:2 "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

Here is a reference to the 42 months you mentioned, but it says a city will be trod under foot. For us Christians, we know what this actually refers to the body of Christ who are his temple rather than some physical location, and yet, also the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem will be defiled, as well; there is a double meaning.

While the Jews make an agreement with the AC to rebuild the physical temple, Jesus will make an agreement with his temple, the 144k by supernaturally communicating with them to organize them into 12 tribes for the final 7 years, of which, half way through, the AC will renege on his agreement and somehow profane the physical temple. However, the real abomination here will be his war against the saints.

The first 3.5 years will be a time of fake peace. Daniel refers to this as a time when the AC will "cause craft to prosper" (Daniel 8:25). The 7 trumpets of the Great Tribulation are pretty intense; there will be world wide destruction; it makes no sense that anyone would be able to "cause craft to prosper" in such disastrous times. This verse must be referring to a time just before the disasters strike.

Paul also references this when he says, " the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3).

There are also several other references in Daniel which refer to this 7 year period. Here are some of them:

Daniel 8:13-14
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

If we start with a 7 year period of 2,520 days and subtract the number referenced here, we arrive at a figure of 220 days. Presumably this is the time required to literally rebuild the temple.

Daniel 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

3.5 years is 1,260 days, yet this verse refers to a period of 1,290 days. Presumably this 30 day discrepancy is the length of time the AC will use to do whatever it is he does to profane the temple in some blasphemous way, as the verse refers to "setting up".

And, if you're interested, there is one other verse from Daniel 12:12 which suggests when the period of God's wrath will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet (or end of the 1260 days).

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Remember how the previous verse referred to 1,290 days? Here, the prophecy expects us to subtract that number from a new number, 1335, which is significant because it extends beyond the 7 year period we've been dealing with up to this point. If you do that, you get a period of 45 days.

It is almost certain that this 45 day period is the length of time during which two, simultaneous events will happen; the marriage supper of the Lamb up in "New Jerusalem come down out of Heaven" at the 7th trumpet, and the wrath of God being "poured out" on a spiritually "desolate" world below. Remember those words from Daniel 9:27?

Anyway, I'll leave it there for now as this post is already probably tldr.

You said you do not understand the seals well.
Seals 4, 5, and 6 play off one another. Each one sets the next one into motion.

The 4th seal is death.
This is the Anti-Christ enforcing the mark upon mankind and killing tons of people.
Many Christians will be slaughtered, and beheaded.

The 5th seal are the saints (who were just maryred by the Anti-Christ) crying out for vengeance to God in Heaven.

The 6th seal is God's answer or call to the 5th seal. God is responding to the saint's cry for vengeance by bringing in His wrath upon the Anti-Christ and his world system.

Scripture says we are not appointed unto Wrath (See: 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10). You fail to understand that the wrath is for the Anti-Christ and those who follow him. Wrath is not for God's people.

Christians are persecuted in China and other countries today. So there is a difference between general persecution of believers, and the tribulation that will come upon this world. Yes, there will be new saints who will arise out of the Tribulation, but the church is not the same group of believers as those who go through the Tribulation with the Antichrist. Revelation 20:4-6 makes it clear that those who were beheaded for Christ and refuse to worship the beast, etc. will live and reign with Christ 1,000 years. The rest of the dead will not live again until the 1,000 years is finished. This is referring to the church, etc.; For why else would New Jerusalem come down from out of Heaven and land on the New Earth after the Millennium?

Post Trib Rapture does not make any sense. Catholics believe in this view. You fail to understand that Jesus says this.

“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” (Luke 21:36).

Jesus tells us to watch and pray always that we may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass. What things? The things in the tribulation. Just read the context. Yet, you feel we must go through the Tribulation.

 

[nolidad]

When people use "but" in this manner, it tends to suggest that they think the part after the but is more important than the part before the but.

"I love you, but I don't want to be around you". Which part of that sentence do you think is more important?

It really does come across as though your pronouncement that prophecy is about Jesus is just lip service, while the real importance of prophecy is all about predicting the future!

Until you're prepared to put Jesus at the center of all your interpretations, without any buts, you won't understand prophecy properly.

Well I put the but because both are included in prophecy. Which is more important depends on teh context of the prophecy.

Well you can think it is lip service but I know it isn't. I know the main focus of all Scripture is the Glory of God. But in that main focus there is also lots of emphasis placed on His highest creation-man. So I don't neglect the second to focus solely on the first when both are mentioned. Like all teh unfulfilled prophecies God has yet to accomplish for the nation and People of Israel. Of course first and foremost they are for the glory of God, but they also involve a people God covenanted fro Himself so I will not exclude them or others when they are mentioned.

That is called looking at the whole prophetic pictrue.

 

[Douggg]

I'm a disciple of Jesus, a disciple is a student, ergo I study

It sounds to me that you are a disciple to your bible teachers. Do you understand the difference between gathering information and being indoctrinated? Which are you doing?

Work on a timeline chart of the 7 year 70th week major events, to comply with the infallible Ezekiel 39 timeline framework, which is...

____________________________________________________________________________

And here is mine, filled in....

 

[Ki Won]

I see that, and I appreciate it. It seems we have some important issues in common and I think that's fantastic. I believe there is a final, 7 year period and I'll explain why, though I think the most important thing is that we agree on a 3.5 year period of Great Tribulation which we need to prepare for.



I must admit that I don't really understand the seals very well. I suspect they are a kind of broad overview of prophecy throughout history. I generally shy away from making pronouncements about them as they are really quite vague in terms of timeline and specific events.

However, there are other parts of prophecy which really are quite specific concerning timelines and events. For example, the final 7 year period comes from several references in Daniel which also correspond to references in the Revelation. One of the most important is Daniel 9:24-27. There's A LOT of information packed in to these 4 verses, but in particular verse 27 says, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate".

In Jewish prophetic vernacular, A year is split into 12, 30 day cycles. 7 years would be 2,520 days. Half of that would be 1,260 days. Also, a "week" can mean a period of 7 days or 7 years. Often it is only context which denotes the difference between the two and sometimes there is no context; we just have to wait and see which of the two it is. In this case, we've got plenty of context to illustrate that this usage is for 7 years rather than 7 days.

In the middle of this 7 year period, the AC causes the sacrifices to cease and through abominations makes it desolate. This is a reference to the 3rd temple. Up to now, there have been two temples, the first built by David/Solomon which was destroyed and then rebuilt. The second was the temple in Jesus' day which was later destroyed by the Romans. Since that time there has been no other temple, but, sacrifices can only be made in the temple which means, in order for the sacrifices to cease, there must be a temple in which the sacrifices are happening.

This reference to an "agreement" for one week (i.e. 7 years) has a double meaning. For the Jews, their emphasis is still on a physical building; they only want their temple. The temple is the epitome of their religious organization. It is all important to them. It is almost certain that they will end up making an agreement with the AntiChrist to rebuild the temple, which, consequently, is what will help add to the AC's popularity; peace in the middle east is a big deal. Anyone who manages to accomplish this will almost certainly be seen as a powerful, worthy leader. Certainly, the Jews will probably view this person as their long awaited messiah as a result, especially since the Revelation describes the Beast and his False Prophet as having the ability to call down fire from heaven and perform various "miracles", (although Paul refers to these as lying signs and wonders).

On the other hand, the prophecy starts by referring to the Messiah; it is the only place in the entire OT where the word "Messiah" is used so it's pretty clearly referring to Jesus. But, prophecy can sometimes have more than one meaning. Consider Revelation 11:2 "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

Here is a reference to the 42 months you mentioned, but it says a city will be trod under foot. For us Christians, we know what this actually refers to the body of Christ who are his temple rather than some physical location, and yet, also the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem will be defiled, as well; there is a double meaning.

While the Jews make an agreement with the AC to rebuild the physical temple, Jesus will make an agreement with his temple, the 144k by supernaturally communicating with them to organize them into 12 tribes for the final 7 years, of which, half way through, the AC will renege on his agreement and somehow profane the physical temple. However, the real abomination here will be his war against the saints.

The first 3.5 years will be a time of fake peace. Daniel refers to this as a time when the AC will "cause craft to prosper" (Daniel 8:25). The 7 trumpets of the Great Tribulation are pretty intense; there will be world wide destruction; it makes no sense that anyone would be able to "cause craft to prosper" in such disastrous times. This verse must be referring to a time just before the disasters strike.

Paul also references this when he says, " the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3).

There are also several other references in Daniel which refer to this 7 year period. Here are some of them:

Daniel 8:13-14
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

If we start with a 7 year period of 2,520 days and subtract the number referenced here, we arrive at a figure of 220 days. Presumably this is the time required to literally rebuild the temple.

Daniel 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

3.5 years is 1,260 days, yet this verse refers to a period of 1,290 days. Presumably this 30 day discrepancy is the length of time the AC will use to do whatever it is he does to profane the temple in some blasphemous way, as the verse refers to "setting up".

And, if you're interested, there is one other verse from Daniel 12:12 which suggests when the period of God's wrath will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet (or end of the 1260 days).

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Remember how the previous verse referred to 1,290 days? Here, the prophecy expects us to subtract that number from a new number, 1335, which is significant because it extends beyond the 7 year period we've been dealing with up to this point. If you do that, you get a period of 45 days.

It is almost certain that this 45 day period is the length of time during which two, simultaneous events will happen; the marriage supper of the Lamb up in "New Jerusalem come down out of Heaven" at the 7th trumpet, and the wrath of God being "poured out" on a spiritually "desolate" world below. Remember those words from Daniel 9:27?

Anyway, I'll leave it there for now as this post is already probably tldr.

Ahh yeah, that's where we differ. I hold a similar view to @Spiritual Jew regarding Daniel's 70th week although I'm not sure I agree totally with him either.

I believe that the 70th week began with Christ's baptism and was halted at the midway point with his crucifixion. Rather than the first 3.5yrs of the apostles preaching only to the Jews being the second half of that week I believe the second half of the week begins when the dragon beckons the beast out of the sea which is why he's only got 42 months.

Why there's the best part of 2000 years between the 2 halves of the week I have no idea, this passage is one of those where my position has changed since joining this forum. Somebody put forward an extremely convincing argument why it was Christ that fulfilled Daniel's 70th week and after looking into it a bit further I decided that up to the crucifixion at least the interpretation had a great deal of merit. I have still to look for Scriptures to support my version of the belief because I've been incredibly busy these last couple of weeks or so, no lockdown here as far as I'm concerned.. At the moment it is just a personal belief with no basis other than gut feeling that it's correct. One thing I am sure of is there isn't a seven year tribulation nor a seven year peace treaty, the mark of the beast style vaccine is literally weeks away, not 3.5 years away.. Them last 42 months are almost upon us..

 

[nolidad]

You bore me with your pretend authoritative way of speaking. Anyone can say someone else is wrong. But, you have to prove it. And you continually fail to do that.

Well then you reject the authority of Scripture and the rules of grammar that God created so we can understand each other I continuously post. and if I bore you- do not be a rude dude- instead hit the ignore button.

This is nonsense. This is you pretending to be a Hebrew expert when everyone here knows that you are not. The He of verse 27 refers back to the last individual to be the focus of the prophecy and that is the Messiah. Nothing you said here changes that.

And your childish rants prove you do not know how to debate with too much Christian charity with one you disagree with.

sorry but those are the rules of grammar in both English and Hebrew! Unless they are conpsiring against you and all those who hold that it is okay to skip a person to refer back to another person in violation of grammar.

And based on how I at least know how to go find Hebrew grammar and the tools to parse verbs and look at the construct of nouns and their meanings in the differing voices, moods, cases etc. shows me I am at least better at it than you! And that is not saying much for wither of us.

The new covenant was confirmed by way of His earthly ministry, death and resurrection and that would account for the first part of the 7 years. The rest of the 7 years confirmed the new covenant by way of the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit which was first preached in Jerusalem and throughout Israel before going to the Gentiles.

Well then I will ask you the same question four others who hold the same hypothesis as you have so far failed to answer but keep tap dancing around the answer.

Here is the New Covenant as God declared it!

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Show me how you r answer above fulfills these promises God made in the new covenant.

According to you :
1. When were " those days"? when did they happen so that AFTER those days:
2.. The houses of Israel and Judah (all Israelites) god put His laws in their inward parts.
3. Israel is once again Gods people and He is their God.
4. When did god instill in all their hearts the knowledge of Him? Are you implying because you say teh new covenant is now fulfilled and completed- all Israelis are saved?

I await you to show me when all these took place as God said they will.

You are not making any sense whatsoever. First, you correctly say that Jesus' blood establishes the new covenant and that He is currently mediating the new covenant, but then you deny the scripture that prophesies about the new covenant is fulfilled yet. What? That is beyond utter nonsense. It's heresy. What more could Jesus possibly do to fulfill the new covenant than to shed His blood as the once for all sacrifice for all people? Nothing.

Do you not believe that the old covenant is obsolete and that the new covenant is fully established?

Well first let us make sure we are speaking the same definition.

Definition of fulfill


transitive verb

1a: to put into effect : EXECUTEHe fulfilled his pledge to cut taxes.
b: to meet the requirements of (a business order)
c: to measure up to : SATISFY
d: to bring to an end
2a: to develop the full potentialities of
b: to convert into reality

this is the definition accepted by I will now have to say nearly all. If you use another definition, what is it.

So show me how Jesus fulfilled the terms of the new covenant as declared in Jer. 31.

also as you demand that the new covenant is only for 7 years- does that mean god is not saving Jews any more?

Show me one Scripture that says the Covenant is fulfilled.

Yes Jesus blood is the foundation for the New Covenant. It is the price needed to enact the terms of the new covenant as spelled out in Jer. 31. So if it is fulfilled show when the terms of Jer. 31 were brought to a completion.

If something is in mediation with a mediator- then that covenant or contract has not been enacted yet. the terms are laid out but now both parties have to be brough tin to teh terms of teh covenant as spelled out in Jeremiah 31.

And God promised He would force the nation of Israel into the bond of the covenant!

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Are you saying that this has been fuflilled seeing you demand the terms of teh new covenant as spelled out in Jeremiah 31 are now fulfilled? When did this happen.

I await your answers to these questions and scriptures.