Grace and Works broken down

Dan1988

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So if your claim is true, why was Peter so disillusioned with Christ impending death that he renounced Christ?

I mean, if what you claim was true, Peter should be jumping for joy that his sins will finally be paid thru the death burial and resurrection of Christ right?

Why wasn't any of the 12 at the tomb on Sunday, counting down to his expected resurrection from the grave?
Great question, answer = nobody believed that He would be resurrected from the tomb. We should try to imagine how impossible this sounded to the apostles. Thomas couldn't even believe his eyes when he saw Jesus after He came back from the dead, let alone believe it before.
 
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Devin Hammond

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You must have really compromised your beliefs if you preached there.

That was 20 years ago. My beliefs have changed over time. At the time I really didn’t believe in the pretribulation rapture so no Calvary wasn’t really a good fit for me. I did like the worship and the people were friendly and learning from Pastor Chuck Smith was enlightening. Doctrine is the reason I am no longer at Calvary Chapel. It is a very good church don’t get me wrong. Overtime I began studying the Methodist movement and John Wesley’s life and really began to see the importance of good works as a Christian. But there are many other doctrinal reasons that I am no longer at Calvary works isn’t the only issue that I have with their theology.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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That was 20 years ago. My beliefs have changed over time. At the time I really didn’t believe in the pretribulation rapture so no Calvary wasn’t really a good fit for me. I did like the worship and the people were friendly and learning from Pastor Chuck Smith was enlightening. Doctrine is the reason I am no longer at Calvary Chapel. It is a very good church don’t get me wrong. Overtime I began studying the Methodist movement and John Wesley’s life and really began to see the importance of good works as a Christian. But there are many other doctrinal reasons that I am no longer at Calvary works isn’t the only issue that I have with their theology.
I'm not aware of Chuck Smith teaching that obedience to Christ is not necessary for believers. I use to listen to him and Swindoll all the time in the 80's and 90's
 
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Devin Hammond

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Where does faith come from??? do we produce it within ourselves or is it a gift from God. Why do some have faith and others don't???

True faith does work, no Christian can dispute that. The question is, where does it come from and how does one attain it. We know works without faith are dead and faith without works is dead so any works done without faith are as filthy rags.

All that to say, God does good works through us for His glory alone. All we bring to the table is a filthy stinking corpse and we want to boast about it, give me a break.

I don’t really disagree with what you said here.
 
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Guojing

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Great question, answer = nobody believed that He would be resurrected from the tomb. We should try to imagine how impossible this sounded to the apostles. Thomas couldn't even believe his eyes when he saw Jesus after He came back from the dead, let alone believe it before.

Yes, so my simple point was that, none of the ot saints were looking forward to the cross.

As I said, they were instead looking forward to the promised kingdom, at least ever since God promised King David, that is known as the gospel of the kingdom.
 
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Devin Hammond

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Yes we will all be judged by our works. The only difference between the elect of God and those outside is we won't be cast into hell for our sin because it's all paid for.

The Bible does teach that that both heaven and hell have varying degrees of punishment and reward. If we bare little to no fruit as Christians, we might be cleaners in Heaven instead of rulers.

Those outside of Christ who sinned grievously, will go to the pits of hell where the heat is super intense while those who committed respectable sins like giving money to the poor with a wrong motive will suffer less heat.

I agree with most of what you wrote here as well. So how do you view then some of the scriptures that have been posted in this thread?

John 15:2

Matthew 25:30

Matthew 7:19
 
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Devin Hammond

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I'm not aware of Chuck Smith teaching that obedience to Christ is not necessary for believers. I use to listen to him and Swindoll all the time in the 80's and 90's

You’re absolutely right. I went through the entire Bible with Chuck Smith on CD and every Friday he came to the Bible College to teach. Chuck Smith does believe in Lordship salvation but he would also probably say that works aren’t required in order to be saved. I am probably not in too big of a disagreement with Calvary Chapel on this issue. It’s some of their other doctrines that I have the biggest problem with. The fact that they don’t partake of the Eucharist regularly is a huge issue for me.
 
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You’re absolutely right. I went through the entire Bible with Chuck Smith on CD and every Friday he came to the Bible College to teach. Chuck Smith does believe in Lordship salvation but he would also probably say that works aren’t required in order to be saved. I am probably not in too big of a disagreement with Calvary Chapel on this issue. It’s some of their other doctrines that I have the biggest problem with. The fact that they don’t partake of the Eucharist regularly is a huge issue for me.
Yes Chuck, Charles and John Mac all teach Lordship Salvation as do I :)

I really like those So Cal guys. I'm from Nor Cal :)
 
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Devin Hammond

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Yes Chuck, Charles and John Mac all teach Lordship Salvation as do I :)

I really like those So Cal guys. I'm from Nor Cal :)

I listen to John MacArthur every night when I go to bed. I’m not in total agreement with everything that he says but I do like him, he is a solid Bible teacher. Honestly Lordship salvation is probably the crux of the matter in our discussion here. Ultimately Christ will be the judge of who is saved and who is not. The thief on the cross was saved without doing many good works probably. But I don’t want to be one who just scrapes by and makes it into heaven by the skin of my teeth. We do know that people will be rewarded with different places in the kingdom according to what they have done. Mark 10:40
 
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I listen to John MacArthur every night when I go to bed. I’m not in total agreement with everything that he says but I do like him, he is a solid Bible teacher. Honestly Lordship salvation is probably the crux of the matter in our discussion here. Ultimately Christ will be the judge of who is saved and who is not. The thief on the cross was saved without doing many good works probably. But I don’t want to be one who just scrapes by and makes it into heaven by the skin of my teeth. We do know that people will be rewarded with different places in the kingdom according to what they have done. Mark 10:40
I'm 100% Lordship its the beginning point of being a disciple. He is Lord. :)
 
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Devin Hammond

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I'm 100% Lordship its the beginning point of being a disciple. He is Lord. :)

Do you know what the word Lord means? It means master. We are called to be slaves of Christ.
 
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Do you know what the word Lord means? It means master. We are called to be slaves of Christ.
my pastor in the 80's taught NT Greek as Fuller. He was my next door neighbor and taught me NT Greek for 2 years one on one. It was such a blessing and he taught me how to study scripture using the method of exegesis, hermenuetics, grammar etc...

I'm a δούλος !
 
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Devin Hammond

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my pastor in the 80's taught NT Greek as Fuller. He was my next door neighbor and taught me NT Greek for 2 years one on one. It was such a blessing and he taught me how to study scripture using the method of exegesis, hermenuetics, grammar etc...

I'm a δούλος !

Awesome! I never had the chance to learn to read Greek or Hebrew much. I only use lexicons in my studies.

I was looking online in a search for “slaves for Christ” and I found a message by MacArthur. You may want to give it a listen. I think that I will listen to it for part of my morning devotion.

Slaves for Christ
 
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Awesome! I never had the chance to learn to read Greek or Hebrew much. I only use lexicons in my studies.

I was looking online in a search for “slaves for Christ” and I found a message by MacArthur. You may want to give it a listen. I think that I will listen to it for part of my morning devotion.

Slaves for Christ
I have all his study guides from all his sermon series from the 80's and most of his books and commentaries. If I had to pick a single Pastor/Teacher that I'm most in line with Theologically its JM. Even his Eschatological view. Most Reformed people are not Pre Mill, Pre Trib but Amill.

I think one of the best books written in our lifetime was the Gospel according to Jesus. I have all the other book in the series but the first one is the best IMHO.

Its right up there with Bonhoffer on the cost of discipleship. The Pursuit of God by Tozer and Knowing God by Packer as the most influential books I've read and have impacted my life.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Awesome! I never had the chance to learn to read Greek or Hebrew much. I only use lexicons in my studies.

I was looking online in a search for “slaves for Christ” and I found a message by MacArthur. You may want to give it a listen. I think that I will listen to it for part of my morning devotion.

Slaves for Christ
I added to my last post and edited it let me know if you read any of those other books. Thanks !
 
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Devin Hammond

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I have all his study guides from all his sermon series from the 80's and most of his books and commentaries. If I had to pick a single Pastor/Teacher that I'm most in line with Theologically its JM. Even his Eschatological view. Most Reformed people are not Pre Mill, Pre Trib but Amill.

I think one of the best book written in our lifetime was the Gospel according to Jesus. I have all the other book in the series but the first one is the best IMHO.

hope this helps !!!

I do like MacArthur a lot and I also like John Piper. RC Sproul was a good Bible teacher and so was Ravi Zacharias before they passed. Greg Laurie is alright as well as Matt Chandler. I used to like James McDonald Walk in the Word before he was removed. Alistair Begg has some ok stuff. But MacArthur is definitely my favorite well known Pastor.

However, I do have some issues with MacArthur’s theology. His eschatology and his doctrine on baptism are problematic. Personally I am an Amillenialist and also post-tribulation. I also believe that baptism is a means of grace and provides salvific benefits. I also think my stance on works is probably different from his. He also probably teaches that there are separate judgements for believers and unbelievers. Overall he is a very sound Bible teacher but like I said I do have some problems with him.

John Piper has some really good stuff on YouTube: https://m.youtube.com/c/desiringGod...itct=CBAQ8JMBGAEiEwiBn-qc06XtAhULwBYJHdS3Aw4=

He also wrote a book that I love:

https://www.amazon.com/Passion-Jesus-Christ-Piper-Paperback/dp/B00IGYXXE2

There are some good LCMS Pastors online. IssuesEtc has some interesting discussions:

Past Shows

Faith Capo is good:

Sermons — Faith Capo

Will Weedon is good as well:

Home - The Word of the Lord Endures Forever

Bryan Wolfmueller is good as well:

https://www.stpaulaustin.org/sermon-speaker/rev-bryan-wolfmueller/

But again I am not in agreement with these folks on all doctrinal issues.
 
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Devin Hammond

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I added to my last post and edited it let me know if you read any of those other books. Thanks !

I have read The Cost Of Discipleship, The Pursuit Of God, and Knowing God.

But I have not read The Gospel According To Jesus. I will have to check it out. Thanks a million.

If you’d like I could recommend some books. One I am interested in right now and probably going to buy for my Dad for Christmas is this one:

The Imitation of Christ- Genuine Leather Hardcover
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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I have read The Cost Of Discipleship, The Pursuit Of God, and Knowing God.

But I have not read The Gospel According To Jesus. I will have to check it out. Thanks a million.

If you’d like I could recommend some books. One I am interested in right now and probably going to buy for my Dad for Christmas is this one:

The Imitation of Christ- Genuine Leather Hardcover
Lets see your list of recommended books that have impacted your life. I would be interested in hearing about them, thanks !
 
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Palmfever

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2 Peter, 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
It’s faith that works, not faith vs. works.
 
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Devin Hammond

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Lets see your list of recommended books that have impacted your life. I would be interested in hearing about them, thanks !

Alright, there are a lot of good books so I will try and work on this. I did just a second ago put in an order for four books for my Dad for Christmas and I’m sure he will probably let me read them as well. I did order The Gospel According To Jesus that you recommended to me. I also just ordered The Imitation Of Christ that I recommended to you. In addition to those I also ordered these two books:

Faith Alone: A Daily Devotional


Christification: A Lutheran Approach to Theosis

Those are the four books that I just now ordered for Christmas for my Dad and I will probably read them soon as well.

The one on Christification by Cooper looks extremely interesting and definitely relates to this discussion.

I will post more books that I like as soon as I can. But the one that I recommended by John Piper is probably the book that has most impacted my life.
 
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