Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[Ken-1122]

Do I need to point to instances where a white person and black person commit the same crime, yet one is punished far more harshly and supposedly that tends to be black people, with seemingly no real justification beyond biases about how black people somehow are more dangerous or criminal that persists in the justice system

Can you give an example of this happening? Give an example of a black man and a white man commits the same crime, in the same city, and is convicted in the same court and the judge is required to give the black man a harsher sentence than the white man due strictly to race.

Because of the disproportionate affect on black people: white people being affected to some extent does not dismiss the effects on black people being higher per capita, or did you not grasp that important qualification?

You can’t be suggesting if black men commits a specific crime more often than white men and are convicted of this crime at a disproportionate rate, that conviction of this crime is an act of racism; are you? Let’s take this logic a bit further. Men commit the crime of rape more often than women and are thus convicted at a disproportionate rate compared to women. According to your (il)logic making rape a crime is sexist!

Do you think there's a dogma of culture, like some rule in regards to the study rather than a convention? It's an academic discipline and you don't have to take my word for it if you actually have even an iota of curiosity. By all means counter the claims, I can point out that I didn't say this about all cultures and I didn't say it about merely participating, I specifically said, several times, that it was cultural ADOPTION, which is not the same as cultural EXCHANGE.

It's like you're not reading it except in a hasty fashion to find something to criticize and not even consider the overall context of the discussion, which is not only dishonest, but lazy.

In other words, you have nothing to back up your claim that you must be raised in a culture in order to be a part of it? Got it!

 

[muichimotsu]

Can you give an example of this happening? Give an example of a black man and a white man commits the same crime, in the same city, and is convicted in the same court and the judge is required to give the black man a harsher sentence than the white man due strictly to race.

If you're going to narrow it down that much, of course you're going to have a difficult time finding the examples you want: goalposts shifted again!

And I didn't say it was strictly due to race, that's putting words into my mouth, I've looked into sentencing problems for Hispanic and black youths and how the privileged status of many white families would let them go back to their parents' custody, while the underprivileged Hispanic/black would then be put into custody, sometimes tried as an adult, through no fault of their own and because of a system that is horrible in the outcomes for non white people.

You can’t be suggesting if black men commits a specific crime more often than white men and are convicted of this crime at a disproportionate rate, that conviction of this crime is an act of racism; are you? Let’s take this logic a bit further. Men commit the crime of rape more often than women and are thus convicted at a disproportionate rate compared to women. According to your (il)logic making rape a crime is sexist!

I didn't make that specific a claim, I said in terms of the sentencing severity, which ironically I just remembered and found the example I'm thinking of, for 2 college students, one white and one black, convicted of the same crime, and yet one is given a much lighter sentence than the other, guess which one was white?

KING: Brock Turner and Cory Batey, two college athletes who raped unconscious women, show how race and privilege affect sentences

And I'd be skeptical of your claim about men being convicted of rape more, because as I recall, rape is not as easy to demonstrate with women on men issues. You'd have to substantiate that claim, first off, but also seem to consider rape open and shut in regards to all examples, rather than male on female as the supposedly most common manifestation. It isn't sexist and I wasn't making even the same argument at all in regards to any specific crimes, not to mention you haven't substantiated that claim either, but it also wouldn't give credence to a society not enabling that behavior in part by the treatment of black people with some idea that they just need to work harder.

In other words, you have nothing to back up your claim that you must be raised in a culture in order to be a part of it? Got it!

You've been misrepresenting what I said: being a part of a culture is the umbrella term, it isn't what I specifically said. Understand that or the conversation is over because you are being thoroughly dishonest and not even reading what I said or my qualification about what I said[/QUOTE]

 

[Junia]

It isn't about them understanding, it's the glorification of a colonialist mindset that a white person can just appropriate any other culture because it's just their right to do so in a culture that glorifies whiteness as the norm and minorities as just an afterthought.

No, because Elsa is 1) a fictional character and 2) her being white is entirely optional to the story that is told. And 3) she's white, so really a black person wanting to emulate her is in a way just playing into white privilege because there are so few black role models in fiction, particularly Disney, in the first place, so they really have very little choice but to dress up as what are overwhelmingly more white princess, white and blonde/black/brunette haired no less, even red haired princesses or such fairly rare.

Pretty sure no one is saying black people cannot do cultural appropriation, but their doing so is because of a society that places privilege onto whiteness in various cultural contexts, including fiction. Have you heard of the whitewashing problem in terms of pop culture? I'm excited, personally, for the new live action Little Mermaid because the lead is supposed to be black from the information we have, which means they're changing that cultural bias towards whiteness

But a while person could dress as Moana or Tiama or Mulan. As long as they don't do blackface.

 

[Junia]

Except they're white colonialists in no small part and the treatment of them by white people can still be demeaning even if they are also white, internalized racism is a thing, look into it.

Dressing as your ancestors suggests that the style of dress is just something to be used casually and, for some stuff, that's not cultural appropriation, it's cultural exchange, like Japanese who took on Western clothing customs post Meiji as they had cultural exchange with the West. But dressing up as, say, a Shinto shrine maiden pushes that boundary because it's not the same as clothes that don't have any significance in terms of culture, they're interchangeable by their nature.

Nothing wrong with wearing a Japanese kimono as Japanese haven't been systemically oppressed by white cultures

 

[Junia]

There is a difference between cultural appropriation and cultural sharing. I agree blackface is offensive and I think dressing up as a Golli doll or a black and white minsfrel.would be offensive. I

But a white person wearing a n Indian sari? Cultural sharing
A white person wearing a dress or skirt with an African or Egyptian print on it? Cultural sharing
A white person wearing a Mexican poncho? Cultural sharing


no oppression is happening here unlike with blackface which has been used traditionally to demean and ridicule black people

 

[Junia]

He's no more black and I am with a good tan.
And she's definitely not black.

I
Without knowing whether the last 12 generations of her family have any black ancestry, without knowing her DNA how.can you be sure she isn't black?

 

[Junia]

Same way people try to make being gay something that people just choose so it can be rendered as different from race, dishonestly ignoring the basic facts and even scientific research that suggests that, while sexuality is not the same as phenotypal traits for race, it doesn't appear to be nearly as mutable as, say, your sense of fashion or taste in food.

I respectfully.disagree. Sexual exploitation orientation can be pretty fluid. There 're no be generic markers for sexual orientation

 

[Junia]

Cultural appropriation seems to be one of those ideas that starts out sensibly but quickly veers off into what seems to be a competition on how offended people can be.

Yes - I'm pretty sure Native Americans are all sick of Pocahontas costumes, and no, poking some chopsticks in your hair isn't impressing anyone.

But now ninjas are bad? And we're supposed to be offended at people dressing up as ancient Egyptians because of a "violent history"? Come on. If we're going there, then I don't want to see any Romans or Vikings either. And Italy - we're still waiting for you to give pasta noodles back to the Chinese

The native Americans were oppressed. Chinese is not the same.

 

[Junia]

Its reality.
You can even find it on secular resources.
There’s No Scientific Basis for Race—It's a Made-Up Label

Same as LGBT then.. These qualities aren't innate and there is no scientific basis for them

 

[coffee4u]

Same as LGBT then.. These qualities aren't innate and there is no scientific basis for them

I used a secular resource because they are an atheist. There is no such thing as race, it’s a social construct both scientifically and Biblically. All people are equal and came from Adam and Eve. The genes God gave us have nothing to do with the sins that people commit.

 

[Junia]

I used a secular resource because they are an atheist. There is no such thing as race, it’s a social construct both scientifically and Biblically. All people are equal and came from Adam and Eve. The genes God gave us have nothing to do with the sins that people commit.

That was exactly.my.point. I mention LGBT.because someone cultured was comparing it to ethnicity. WHich is a false equivalence as you can't change your ethnicity.

 

[Junia]

Upthread , not culture d

 

[coffee4u]

That was exactly.my.point. I mention LGBT.because someone cultured was comparing it to ethnicity. WHich is a false equivalence as you can't change your ethnicity.

I wasn't sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing! But okay.

 

[Aldebaran]

No, I didn't remotely insinuate that, you're making a leap in logic.

Hardly: I recognize my privileged status and work to do something about it instead of just thinking things are fine the way they are based on my limited perspective as a white person in a culture founded on white people exploiting people of color. Or do you not think that was the case for America's founding?

What do you do?

Wow, way to put words in my mouth. Their roots are more complex than they may realize, same as anyone's, but black people being forced to conform to whatever standards America appears to have, which shift over the generations, makes them alienated from their ethnic culture, in a way white people can barely relate to, since we can find out more about our cultural roots, having never been dehumanized and treated like chattel as black people in particular were, among other atrocities against people of color (need I bring up settlers' treatment of Native americans?)

Asking you a question isn't putting words in your mouth. It's an attempt to get words out of your mouth.
You still make vague assertions and aren't being specific. Bring up something specific and we'll discuss it from there. Your speaking in generalities doesn't do anything but remind everyone that you're speaking from a "woke" platform meant to pit one race against another as a whole.

 

[muichimotsu]

But a while person could dress as Moana or Tiama or Mulan. As long as they don't do blackface.

Eh, I'd question most of those, Tiana doesn't really count with her "costume", versus Moana in particular, and even Mulan possibly, because it's not just a general outfit, it's culturally specific and has meaning to that culture a white person isn't going to have the context for.

And no one said blackface was the sole determinant factor, the costume itself can be just as problematic

 

[muichimotsu]

What do you do?

Discussing this subject with you is one aspect, I don't need to tell you what I do, it isn't your business

Asking you a question isn't putting words in your mouth. It's an attempt to get words out of your mouth.
You still make vague assertions and aren't being specific. Bring up something specific and we'll discuss it from there. Your speaking in generalities doesn't do anything but remind everyone that you're speaking from a "woke" platform meant to pit one race against another as a whole.

The question is loaded with assumptions and suggests I remotely said that when I didn't, your assumptions are the problem, because you're suggesting that black people's behavior is somehow completely based on cultural conditioning and not a situation that is completely against them in terms of having genuine understanding of their culture or even black people's contributions to American history, because it still appears to more often be white history and that's it, black people barely given enough acknowledgement to be considered "appropriate"

You taking stereotypes of black people and suggesting that is normal is outright wrong, that's not how stereotypes work. And no, this isn't pitting a race against another, it's making one race acknowledge their privilege and actually be better than they claim they are in supposedly "helping" black people, when they do the opposite

 

[muichimotsu]

There is a difference between cultural appropriation and cultural sharing. I agree blackface is offensive and I think dressing up as a Golli doll or a black and white minsfrel.would be offensive. I

But a white person wearing a n Indian sari? Cultural sharing
A white person wearing a dress or skirt with an African or Egyptian print on it? Cultural sharing
A white person wearing a Mexican poncho? Cultural sharing


no oppression is happening here unlike with blackface which has been used traditionally to demean and ridicule black people

I wasn't saying those were cultural appropriation, nor was the original post remotely about that.

Wearing a culturally specific costume is not the same as particular elements that are able to be shared in the first place. But the intent is also important in the idea that a cultural exchange has to be genuinely equal and not just, "Oh I'm white, it's okay I can wear this poncho and not be condescending to Mexicans at all,"

 

[muichimotsu]

The native Americans were oppressed. Chinese is not the same.

Chinese are a minority group in most of the world, the point is how white people seem to think they can get away with just using ethnic
"costumes" and it just being permissible based on Halloween as a context, when it really isn't.

 

[muichimotsu]

I respectfully.disagree. Sexual exploitation orientation can be pretty fluid. There 're no be generic markers for sexual orientation

Sexual orientation as fluid in a sense is not the same as it being purely a choice.

And actually there are many (12q21, 7q31, 4p14, and several others just from a year or so ago, let alone others), we have several studies pointing to genetic markers that are linked to people with same sex orientation, you are parroting the kind of nonsense that isn't believed by anyone, because there being a genetic aspect to sexual orientation does not preclude environmental influences to it, it's epigenetics

First off, I question if you even understand what sexual orientation is versus sexual preference, which is fluid in the sense that we can understand it differently as we go through life, while our innate and basic attractions are arguably predisposed to a degree

 

[muichimotsu]

That was exactly.my.point. I mention LGBT.because someone cultured was comparing it to ethnicity. WHich is a false equivalence as you can't change your ethnicity.

Show I compared it remotely to ethnicity: they are not the same and I didn't say that remotely about ethnicity in the first place.