Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[muichimotsu]

So you think it's fair to stereotype entire races, nationalities, and populations of people based on a small subset that is given lots of media exposure?

It's almost like they don't realize how privileged they are in terms of a society that favors whites, even if it isn't being malicious about it, but nonetheless encourages the bias by various methods rather than encouraging genuine diversity as to be praised and appreciated.

 

[coffee4u]

One race the human race huh? Yeah; that’s cute and all, but in the real world, there are specific physical characteristics most people have, and we attribute those characteristics as race. This is a reality whether you like it or not; proclaiming a single race being the human race does not change that.

Its reality.
You can even find it on secular resources.
There’s No Scientific Basis for Race—It's a Made-Up Label

 

[Strathos]

Its reality.
You can even find it on secular resources.
There’s No Scientific Basis for Race—It's a Made-Up Label

The problem is that a large amount of people don't accept that.

 

[Ken-1122]

And yet the idea persisted for probably 60 years or more, something must've been pushing that and I'd argue it's in no small part that white people weren't affected by it,

Jim Crow laws did affect white people; that’s why the laws were enacted! It kept the races separated which was considered very important to them during that time.

I'm advising perspective, I'm not claiming all white people have the same amount of issue with it, some white people don't because they've actually had many friends of different color and even understand their struggles

Oh! Now you seem to be changing things up a bit. Before you were saying, “white people do this and think that”, now you seem to be saying SOME white people do this and think that. So what percentage are you talking about here? 50%? 10$? 1%?

Mexican is a subset of Hispanic and still misses the point, because I'm not saying Hispanic people aren't struggling as well, but it's arguably different. Maybe we could ask Hispanic people instead of assuming either of us knows their lived experiences

I DID ask hispanic people! Go back and read what I said.

I was speaking in generalities, I wasn't making a statement of absolute statistical fact

So are you suggesting black people are underrepresented in the entertainment industry?

#1-It's likely more common, white people, to my knowledge, are still the majority and that's especially the case, I'd imagine in rural areas

We’re not talking only about rural areas, we’re talking about where ever one chooses to live

#2-When white people may very well be getting approved for loans or given preferential treatment by banks, it's not uncommon

Every time I’ve gone shopping for a loan or mortgage, I’ve gotten preferential treatment by banks and mortgage brokers as well! It’s just a matter of knowing what to expect and what to do.

#3-Pleasant and equitable might be the nuance we're getting at, the article may need more specification on that, because you can have "pleasant" neighbors and they still are passive aggressive or otherwise not creating the best environment for the neighborhood, like being inconsiderate

This happens regardless of race.

#4-Have you not seen any news stories about people calling the cops on black people in a situation that seems purely based on their being black and it being a majority white area?

Yes I’ve seen the stories. Do you think this the exception or the rule in majority white areas?

The fact that you assume they're a man without any consideration it might be a woman already speaks volumes on male privilege,

An author writes something foolish and I incorrectly assume the foolish author is male, and you call that male privilege? Really???

but this isn't about low expectations, it's pointing out the explicit differences white people have in their lived experience versus black people.

Are you assuming all white people have the same experiences, and all black people have the same experiences?

No, white people cannot just adopt a culture, nor can black people, that's why it's called cultural appropriation, because you haven't earned it

According to sociologists, culture consists of the values, beliefs, systems of language, communication, and practices that people share in common and that can be used to define them as a collective.
Defining Culture and Why It Matters to Sociologists

What is stopping me as a black man, or you as a white man from adopting a different culture? Culture is not something you earn, it’s something you choose to adopt.

Way to put words in my mouth: I didn't say it was more difficult by necessity, but that it is made more difficult in some areas, especially with regards to more GOP dominated areas, an issue of gerrymandering in no small part as I recall.

I’m not talking about gerrymandering, you specifically mentioned photo ID. Care to address that?

Isn't that the color blindness aspect I brought up to you and you seemingly were endorsing that idea, while here you acknowledge race as a thing that cultures should recognize?

No. This has nothing to do with anything you and I spoke of earlier.

But whiteness wasn't the primary goal, was it? Where's the actual "study" you did in the first place and actual recorded data?

There was no primary goal. It was a personal study I did asking people of various races and genders if they could choose to be a different gender or race, would they.

 

[Ken-1122]

Its reality.
You can even find it on secular resources.
There’s No Scientific Basis for Race—It's a Made-Up Label

Can you find a secular resource for animal breeds? Perhaps it's a made up label also huh?

 

[Aldebaran]

Suggesting that the only way to get by in the world is to posture like you have affluence, same as white people do. Except in the latter case, white people are still expected to be more successful, black people having to struggle more by comparison

Instead of posturing like they have influence:

Why not actually get educated, do the hard work, and achieve something like so many other black people do? There are plenty of blacks who have been successful, and they are so often looked down upon by other blacks, referring to them as "Uncle Toms", and "black people trying to be white". Another cultural thing of theirs you want to blame on white people?

Nice strawman: I didn't remotely suggest white people encouraged crimes: they enable the situation where black people feel desperate enough to resort to crime. It isn't exclusively a racial issue, but even considering issues of a shrinking middle class, white people seem disproportionately advantaged to having means and hoarding them, not putting back into society meaningfully, but only to further line their own pockets under the appearance of magnanimity

Enable, huh? Look, why not be specific in your accusations? Tell me a specific example where a black person was "enabled a situation" that caused a black person to commit a crime.

 

[muichimotsu]

Its reality.
You can even find it on secular resources.
There’s No Scientific Basis for Race—It's a Made-Up Label

No one said it was a scientific basis in biology, that's literally a racist idea that there is some distinction of black people and white people in terms of something that is purely related to their skin color, etc.

The human race is a different expression than race as a sociological category: do some basic research before you shoot off your mouth

 

[muichimotsu]

Why not actually get educated, do the hard work, and achieve something like so many other black people do? There are plenty of blacks who have been successful, and they are so often looked down upon by other blacks, referring to them as "Uncle Toms", and "black people trying to be white". Another cultural thing of theirs you want to blame on white people?

Some may not have the opportunity in the first place, a problem that can apply to other people of other races, but disproportionately affects balck people

Do you not see the sheer privilege dripping from your words, as if everyone has the same opportunities you did? This is BASIC empathy that you are lacking by treating black people like a joke and generalizing them so much it's baffling you haven't just thrown out the n word at this point

Uncle Toms are not successful blacks, they're blacks who continue to act like white people are always in the right, you're outright making up a definition without substantiating that usage.

Enable, huh? Look, why not be specific in your accusations? Tell me a specific example where a black person was "enabled a situation" that caused a black person to commit a crime.

Do you even...understand grammar? When black people are not given the same opportunities, under white people majority rule in government, that will tend towards crime as an attempt to maintain some measure of livelihood. Again, the privilege is astonishing, especially in how you act like they are somehow the exception or that they're "not trying hard enough" as if that always leads to success (hint, it doesn't)

 

[muichimotsu]

Jim Crow laws did affect white people; that’s why the laws were enacted! It kept the races separated which was considered very important to them during that time.

They also affected black people in that preferential treatment, favoring white people. How is that somehow just an outcome that wasn't biased towards the majority race in power?

Oh! Now you seem to be changing things up a bit. Before you were saying, “white people do this and think that”, now you seem to be saying SOME white people do this and think that. So what percentage are you talking about here? 50%? 10$? 1%?

My lack of qualification doesn't lend credence to your outright dismissal of white privilege or systemic racism, because you haven't substantiated your claims, only trying to poke holes in mine dishonestly

And now you shift the goalposts, as if I have to quantify it to point out the trends

I DID ask hispanic people! Go back and read what I said.

You asked some, that's hardly representative at all

So are you suggesting black people are underrepresented in the entertainment industry?

Yes

We’re not talking only about rural areas, we’re talking about where ever one chooses to live

But not everyone can afford to live in urban areas: or are you unaware of the sheer price differences by comparison?

Every time I’ve gone shopping for a loan or mortgage, I’ve gotten preferential treatment by banks and mortgage brokers as well! It’s just a matter of knowing what to expect and what to do.

You perceiving it as such is not the same as demonstrating it, you keep assuming that it's equal when it may very well not be

This happens regardless of race.

The problem is that white people get away with this behavior moreso, like it's just some minor flaw instead of blatant prejudice they don't even recognize

Yes I’ve seen the stories. Do you think this the exception or the rule in majority white areas?

Its frequency is irrelevant to those biases against black people that we have to correct: minority or not, it means that the ideas are still prevalent in some manner, which isn't good

An author writes something foolish and I incorrectly assume the foolish author is male, and you call that male privilege? Really???

You assuming they are male is the problem, not whether you think they wrote something foolish: way to completely strawman my position AGAIN

Are you assuming all white people have the same experiences, and all black people have the same experiences?

There are tendencies, that's the issue here: equal opportunity and equal outcome are an obvious distinction, white people not always being successful in no way undermines the idea of privileged treatment of them, because you're confusing success with societal privilege overall

According to sociologists, culture consists of the values, beliefs, systems of language, communication, and practices that people share in common and that can be used to define them as a collective.
Defining Culture and Why It Matters to Sociologists

There are subcultures, that's distinct from what we're speaking about with ethnic cultures, linked to ethnicity rather than broader social groups

What is stopping me as a black man, or you as a white man from adopting a different culture? Culture is not something you earn, it’s something you choose to adopt.

The fact that you're not part of the ethnic group for one: it's not prejudiced, it's how the social norms work for that cultural aspect. There can be cultural exchange, which is entirely different from cultural adoption. Neither of us are sociologists and I think you're leaping to a conclusion that isn't founded on the social sciences at all, but your own surface level understanding of culture

I’m not talking about gerrymandering, you specifically mentioned photo ID. Care to address that?

When a group can create restrictions they know by data are harder for minorities to get access to or provide, that's going to be to their advantage, correct?

There was no primary goal. It was a personal study I did asking people of various races and genders if they could choose to be a different gender or race, would they

So you admit it has no substance whatsoever? Why would you bring it up if you admit it's little more than anecdotal evidence?[/QUOTE]

 

[muichimotsu]

The problem is that a large amount of people don't accept that.

Evidence? And isn't that literally an argument from popularity? A majority of people not believing something that is borne out in evidence does not make it untrue and the inverse also applies: people believing something that has no good evidence for it in large numbers does not make it true

 

[coffee4u]

Can you find a secular resource for animal breeds? Perhaps it's a made up label also huh?

Breeds? As in Poodle and a Labrador? Because breeds of dogs are all Canines and so can all be breed together, which is how you get a Labradoodle. They are one kind, the same way humans are all one kind, which is why no matter what 'race' a person is or if they are too mixed to be given a label, all are part of the human race and all can have children together.

 

[muichimotsu]

Breeds? As in Poodle and a Labrador? Because breeds of dogs are all Canines and so can all be breed together, which is how you get a Labradoodle. They are one kind, the same way humans are all one kind, which is why no matter what 'race' a person is or if they are too mixed to be given a label, all are part of the human race and all can have children together.

No one uses "kind" except creationists, that's a dishonest deflection from the proper terminology: breed is specific for animal husbandry, species is for taxonomy, race is a social construct, it hasn't been a biological category of any repute for probably 50+ years

And there was never a claim that black and white could not interbreed, that isn't remotely the meaning of race, because it's categorically distinct in what it describes

This attempt at blatant colorblindness is only able to be emphasized by someone either thoroughly privileged by society treating them as the norm or someone already indoctrinated to believe that otherwise

 

[Ken-1122]

They also affected black people in that preferential treatment, favoring white people. How is that somehow just an outcome that wasn't biased towards the majority race in power?

I never said it was.

My lack of qualification doesn't lend credence to your outright dismissal of white privilege or systemic racism, because you haven't substantiated your claims, only trying to poke holes in mine dishonestly

and now you shift the goalposts, as if I have to quantify it to point out the trends

If you are going to make claims, it is up to you to back them up otherwise you should understand if I remain skeptical of your empty claims.

You asked some, that's hardly representative at all

I never claimed it was representative of all

Yes

What do you base that on?

But not everyone can afford to live in urban areas: or are you unaware of the sheer price differences by comparison?

That applies to both blacks and whites.

You perceiving it as such is not the same as demonstrating it, you keep assuming that it's equal when it may very well not be

I’ve demonstrated it countless times; and the method I use gives me good reason to believe my rates are as good as anything a white person can get, all things being the same.

The problem is that white people get away with this behavior moreso, like it's just some minor flaw instead of blatant prejudice they don't even recognize

Is this another one of your empty claims? Or do you have something to back it up this time? (ain’t holdin’ my breath)

Its frequency is irrelevant to those biases against black people that we have to correct: minority or not, it means that the ideas are still prevalent in some manner, which isn't good

Nobody in this conversation is refuting the claim that bad behavior still exists; it will always exist. The best we can do is lessen the frequency;. Yes; frequency IS revenant.

There are tendencies, that's the issue here: equal opportunity and equal outcome are an obvious distinction, white people not always being successful in no way undermines the idea of privileged treatment of them,

And successful white people in no way proves privilege either.

The fact that you're not part of the ethnic group for one: it's not prejudiced, it's how the social norms work for that cultural aspect. There can be cultural exchange, which is entirely different from cultural adoption. Neither of us are sociologists and I think you're leaping to a conclusion that isn't founded on the social sciences at all, but your own surface level understanding of culture

Again; according to sociologists, culture is behavioral; not biological. Nothing is preventing me from adopting the values, beliefs, systems of language, communication, and practices that people share as part of a culture.

When a group can create restrictions they know by data are harder for minorities to get access to or provide, that's going to be to their advantage, correct?

If you are a legal citizen of this country, getting a photo ID is easy regardless of race. Quit trying to make this something you know it is not.

So you admit it has no substance whatsoever?
Why would you bring it up if you admit it's little more than anecdotal evidence?

I was very clear from the start that this was a personal study, a study I found to be very substantive.

 

[Ken-1122]

Breeds? As in Poodle and a Labrador? Because breeds of dogs are all Canines and so can all be breed together, which is how you get a Labradoodle. They are one kind, the same way humans are all one kind,

Yes! But in everyday language, we humans recognize the existence of what we call different breed's of animals. The same applies to humans as race.

 

[muichimotsu]

I never said it was.

You can't claim the opposite without substantiating it, it wasn't just some situation that happened to favor white people, it did so in part with that knowledge

If you are going to make claims, it is up to you to back them up otherwise you should understand if I remain skeptical of your empty claims.

Your incredulity based on your anecdotal and personal experience doesn't invalidate the claims either, show how this is remotely indicative of some trend with black people rather than your particular experience

I never claimed it was representative of all

It's not even partly representative with the sample size, why even bring it up? It's essentially useless by any stretch of reasoning for discussion of the issue in any way that isn't anecdotal

What do you base that on?

My general experience: do you have evidence that shows otherwise in a way that isn't intentionally skewing numbers and stats?

That applies to both blacks and whites.

Both, but not necessarily to the same degree in numbers, you have to substantiate that versus generalizing

I’ve demonstrated it countless times; and the method I use gives me good reason to believe my rates are as good as anything a white person can get, all things being the same.

But they aren't the same: you are black and they are white, that's the distinction of importance, even if it's an unconscious socially conditioned bias. And it may not reflect all the time, that doesn't mean it is entirely invalid either

Your method appears to be little more than your experience and then dismissing anyone else's I could bring up that contradicts it

Is this another one of your empty claims? Or do you have something to back it up this time? (ain’t holdin’ my breath)

Do white people experience the amount of police brutality we see with black people in regards to the same objection to their abuse of power?

Nobody in this conversation is refuting the claim that bad behavior still exists; it will always exist. The best we can do is lessen the frequency;. Yes; frequency IS revenant.

It's only relevant if I'm claiming a conscious bias, which I didn't

And successful white people in no way proves privilege either.

Never claimed it did, where in the world did you misread entirely what I said? Economic success is NOT and was NEVER the privilege I referred to, you keep going back to that dishonestly and putting words in my mouth as to what privilege entails in this discussion of cultural appropriation and systemic racism.

Again; according to sociologists, culture is behavioral; not biological. Nothing is preventing me from adopting the values, beliefs, systems of language, communication, and practices that people share as part of a culture.

Never claimed it was biological, false dichotomy. And your adoption of them would only be valid if it was an equal cultural exchange versus you just taking from others like you own it, when culture being behavioral does not preclude a constraint based on ethnic identity, you're throwing out an entire category and reducing culture to one aspect you can conveniently use to say, "Oh, yeah, I can just steal culture rampantly like the colonialist enabler I am,"

If you are a legal citizen of this country, getting a photo ID is easy regardless of race. Quit trying to make this something you know it is not.

Demonstrate 1) that is the case and 2) that you can remotely read my mind and dishonestly claim I'm lying, which is an untenable and irrational position to argue based on limited information

I was very clear from the start that this was a personal study, a study I found to be very substantive.

Unfortunately, your credulity and seeming limited understanding of anything resembling proper study methodology does not make it anything substantive to anyone who has any familiarity or understanding about this. I'm no expert, but I already find major flaws in it that don't show anything more than you stacking the deck in your favor or outright engaging in confirmation bias with your data to reach a conclusion you already had, which is thoroughly unscientific

 

[coffee4u]

Yes! But in everyday language, we humans recognize the existence of what we call different breed's of animals. The same applies to humans as race.

You view different races of people as 'breeds' do you?

If people are so hung up on differing amounts of melanin or nose shape then maybe they should seek therapy.

As a Christian I believe God made Adam and Eve in the image of God and that we are all related.

 

[muichimotsu]

You view different races of people as 'breeds' do you?

If people are so hung up on differing amounts of melanin or nose shape then maybe they should seek therapy.

As a Christian I believe God made Adam and Eve in the image of God and that we are all related.

And again, you're trying to downplay it as if it isn't something we consider in society

It's not a hang up, it's a sociological category, like ethnicity, nationality, etc. Or do you not recognize them either?

The breed term was an analogy, it wasn't the same thing: race is a social construct, not something we have biological differences to point out, it's phenotypal at best, if you even understand what that means

The image of God is not usually regarded as a physical thing (substantive, relational and functional each referring to abstract concepts, like our capacity to reason and judge or our supposed dominion over the earth), so you're already missing the point in trying to suggest that we shouldn't even distinguish people at all.

And all "related" is a bit fuzzy of a term when Adam and Eve as a literal thing only begs more questions of the sheer mental gymnastics one has to do to even align it remotely with science rather than, like most rational Christians with any honesty, see it as a metaphorical story, an allegory

 

[Ken-1122]

You can't claim the opposite without substantiating it, it wasn't just some situation that happened to favor white people, it did so in part with that knowledge

Jim Crow laws were put into affect to keep black and white people separate. This was intentional discrimination against black people. Do you agree?

Your incredulity based on your anecdotal and personal experience doesn't invalidate the claims either, show how this is remotely indicative of some trend with black people rather than your particular experience

You aren’t going to answer my question are you.

It's not even partly representative with the sample size,

It doesn’t have to be

why even bring it up?

I was sharing a personal experience with you. Much of what I believe is based on such personal experiences.

My general experience:

You have experience in the entertainment industry? Which one?

do you have evidence that shows otherwise in a way that isn't intentionally skewing numbers and stats?

I just go by what I see. I see plenty of black actors, singers, athletes, and other such people in the entertainment industry.

Both, but not necessarily to the same degree in numbers, you have to substantiate that versus generalizing

No; that would only be necessary for me to convince you.

But they aren't the same: you are black and they are white, that's the distinction of importance,

How do you know that makes a difference? Do you really believe every bank, Mortgage broker, and lending institution is going to turn down money in order to give white people a lower rate when they don’t have to, because they only want to give black people the higher rates? I don’t think so, they will give you the highest rate you are willing to put up with regardless of your race; these institutions are too money hungry to exhibit the type of discipline you accuse them of IMO

Do white people experience the amount of police brutality we see with black people in regards to the same objection to their abuse of power?

What does this have to do with the family next door being nice to you? Wait a minute…. Are you tryin’ ta move those goal posts again???

Never claimed it was biological, false dichotomy.

Then what’s stopping me from adopting another culture?

 

[Ken-1122]

You view different races of people as 'breeds' do you?

No I don't

If people are so hung up on differing amounts of melanin or nose shape then maybe they should seek therapy.

It's not about being "hung up" on those things, but just a matter of recognizing there are differences and giving a name to those differences.

 

[muichimotsu]

Jim Crow laws were put into affect to keep black and white people separate. This was intentional discrimination against black people. Do you agree?

Intentional is the operative word I question, because you're suggesting this was purely based on prejudice that is explicit rather than biases that could still inform someone's ideas about someone of a different race even if they don't hold ill will towards them

You aren’t going to answer my question are you.

I didn't claim to have an answer and if you're going to insist on this kind of substantive evidence, you're asking the wrong person to begin with. This isn't solved in the same way we solve a scientific problem related to nature, this is society

It doesn’t have to be

If it's to be taken seriously, then yes it does, that's basic methodology

I was sharing a personal experience with you. Much of what I believe is based on such personal experiences.

But personal experience is not the be all and end all, we are rational beings that can investigate further than our own preferences and biases

You have experience in the entertainment industry? Which one?

I just go by what I see. I see plenty of black actors, singers, athletes, and other such people in the entertainment industry.

I never claimed that direct experience, the problem is the disproportionate representation, even if it may very well be improving in some sense. But you're still going by anecdotal experience and not even trying to substantiate with statistics, while I wasn't claiming there necessarily was that kind of evidence. Is it impossible to even consider you might be wrong if it contradicts your personal experience?

No; that would only be necessary for me to convince you.

So evidence is just optional even though you're the one making specific claims?

How do you know that makes a difference? Do you really believe every bank, Mortgage broker, and lending institution is going to turn down money in order to give white people a lower rate when they don’t have to, because they only want to give black people the higher rates? I don’t think so, they will give you the highest rate you are willing to put up with regardless of your race; these institutions are too money hungry to exhibit the type of discipline you accuse them of IMO

They can recommend one go to another bank, it doesn't have to be an outright rejection, but the idea that they're not a fit for that particular bank, especially if their credit isn't that good.

I never claimed anything like that, you're literally putting words in my mouth I didn't even allude to. The rates are likely not based on such reductive standards, methinks you're speaking as if you're an expert on that when I'm skeptical you are at all. Not that I am, but I'm honest in not making such grandiose claims

What does this have to do with the family next door being nice to you? Wait a minute…. Are you tryin’ ta move those goal posts again???

If your neighbor decides to call the cops on you because they feel you are some kind of threat, especially if neighbor isn't necessarily someone in that close proximity, but in the neighborhood as would be generally understood as people that may not even know each other that well, then it's not impossible a white person could unknowingly treat a neighbor with that kind of bias that we see, calling the cops on black residents of various locales based on the idea that they're suspicious. I barely see it on social media these days, but it's not hard to find it either and the cases aren't isolated either

Then what’s stopping me from adopting another culture?

The fact that a culture is not the same as the cultural practices that can be done by a respectful cultural exchange. You can't just affirm Asian culture as if you have Asian ethnicity, neither can I, but that doesn't mean we cannot hold a great deal of respect, like how George Takei is an outspoken Anglophile, even though he's Asian American, not English.