Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[muichimotsu]

That’s not an interpretation! Care to try again?

Oh, because I assessed it rather than interpreted people's responses? Could you be more pedantic? Your conclusion is irrelevant when you haven't even established a sound methodology or made a compelling argument that is anecdotal by its nature

Can you present something that specifically speaks of black people in entertainment? (the topic at hand) Rather than something that lumps in asian, LGBQ, brown people and others who are obviously under represented into the mix?

The problem is that this applies not just to black people, I never made it specifically about that even if that was the focus given that you're black and seem to think otherwise, but think you have no burden of proof

Systemic racism? Can you give an example of systemic racism that goes on today?

Police brutality, nuff said, disproportionate violence against black people across the nation versus white people even though black people, we both agree, are a smaller demographic, yet the number per capita are primarily black people versus white people.

Trust me; someone who has done a background check on me that confirms my income, equity, and other such financial details, will have no reason to question whether or not I have enough money

I didn't say it was the background check that would create that response, you're putting words in my mouth

I’m just asking you what is preventing me from adopting another culture; a question you have yet to answer

That your adoption of the culture is not possible given that culture adoption is a particular phenomenon versus cultural exchange, acculturation, etc, which you just stubbornly refuse to even acknowledge as possible and outright dismiss out of bias

First of all, I’m not a part of a dominant culture, but even if I were, what difference would it make?

Because it gives you hegemonical superiority versus others, like how white people get away with far more than black people in terms of crimes, even in regards to punishment, let alone how law enforcement addresses them

Are you under the impression that someone else’s approval/permission is required in order for me to adopt another culture? You jokin’ right???

For cultural adoption, yes, because it entails something you didn't earn from that ethnic group, being raised in the culture versus just leeching onto it and expecting them to just accept you. Any culture is necessarily going to have an element of us versus them thinking in terms of someone just claiming that identity versus the idea of learning about the culture with the understanding that you are, demonstrably, an outsider

 

[muichimotsu]

I see you are not from the USA. I was referring to terms as used in the United States. A lot of people in my country are very ignorant about geography outside of our borders. From what I was told, in Europe, if you describe a person as "Asian" they will assume you mean "middle eastern asian' like Iraq, Iran, turkey, etc. In the US if you refer to someone as asian, they assume far east asia like Japan, Vietnam, Laos, etc. I've met lots of people in my country are unaware that the middle east is a part of Asia. So consider the scenario;
Someone robs a store. After getting a description of the guy, the police puts out an APB on the guy. If you describe the guy as (for example) 6' tall, short hair and from Turkey, half the people are not going to know what a person from Turkey even looks like! So it is easier to just describe the person in a way that most people can understand; black, white, brown, asian.

Except Asia as a region and Asia as a racial group are not the same: people's ignorance is not an excuse if we can properly educate on it and help address those issues of cultural ignorance

 

[coffee4u]

I see you are not from the USA. I was referring to terms as used in the United States. A lot of people in my country are very ignorant about geography outside of our borders. From what I was told, in Europe, if you describe a person as "Asian" they will assume you mean "middle eastern asian' like Iraq, Iran, turkey, etc. In the US if you refer to someone as asian, they assume far east asia like Japan, Vietnam, Laos, etc. I've met lots of people in my country are unaware that the middle east is a part of Asia. So consider the scenario;
Someone robs a store. After getting a description of the guy, the police puts out an APB on the guy. If you describe the guy as (for example) 6' tall, short hair and from Turkey, half the people are not going to know what a person from Turkey even looks like! So it is easier to just describe the person in a way that most people can understand; black, white, brown, asian.

I have noticed American's seem to view race a little differently and often have very little geographical knowledge. This is why I mentioned that I am not American.

When I think Asia I think of all of Asia which may be because we do have a high population of Asian's here and we are not that far away from Asia. We do a lot of trade and business there. We are disconnected from Europe in many ways even though we are mostly European. I have known both Indians from India and a few East Asians. That is less likely to happen in the US I would think.

 

[muichimotsu]

I have noticed American's seem to view race a little differently and often have very little geographical knowledge. This is why I mentioned that I am not American.

When I think Asia I think of all of Asia which may be because we do have a high population of Asian's here and we are not that far away from Asia. We do a lot of trade and business there. We are disconnected from Europe in many ways even though we are mostly European. I have known both Indians from India and a few East Asians. That is less likely to happen in the US I would think.

The ignorance is what one is addressing in bringing up the idea that race is a distinct category that can also have overlap with ethnicity, nationality, etc.

Someone not knowing isn't an excuse to persist, yet that seems more often the way of things across the world, under the auspices of the status quo

 

[Ken-1122]

Oh, because I assessed it rather than interpreted people's responses? Could you be more pedantic? Your conclusion is irrelevant when you haven't even established a sound methodology or made a compelling argument that is anecdotal by its nature

I don’t find that to be necessary in this case. If you expect me to take your objection seriously, you need to explain what you find wrong with my interpretation of this data.

The problem is that this applies not just to black people, I never made it specifically about that even if that was the focus given that you're black and seem to think otherwise, but think you have no burden of proof

I already agree other minorities are under represented; I’m speaking about black people only

Police brutality, nuff said, disproportionate violence against black people across the nation versus white people even though black people, we both agree, are a smaller demographic, yet the number per capita are primarily black people versus white people.

Police brutality as an example of institutional/systemic racism?
In order for police brutality to be an example of institutional racism, the institution of law enforcement itself, or that specific jurisdiction must be created in such a manner that the institution will remain racist no matter the persons holding positions within it.
In short, if you were given free reign to remove all officers within that jurisdiction and replace them with a new group of officers hand chosen by you, would said racism remain?
If replacing the variables within the system this way; in this case the officers, would cleanse the system of racism, then institutional racism did not exist, it was just another example of corrupt cops going against the rules of the system in order to brutalize innocent people.
However, if you remove / replace all variables within the system with new variables known to be non-corrupt from the systems intention (in this case if you replace all cops with people known to not be racist), yet the system remains corrupt (racist here), then institutional racism exists.
Jim Crow laws were an example of institutional racism because (example) no matter how fair the bus driver was, he still would require black people to sit in the back of the bus because those were the laws of the transit system at that time.
My question to you is, what laws within the Police Department are you referring to that would cause non corrupt cops to engage in police brutality?

I will respond to the rest later.

 

[Ken-1122]

I didn't say it was the background check that would create that response,

I didn’t say you did! Where are you getting this stuff?

That your adoption of the culture is not possible given that culture adoption is a particular phenomenon

What is it about this phenomenon that prevents me from adopting it? (please be specific)

For cultural adoption, yes, because it entails something you didn't earn from that ethnic group,

Cultural adoption is something I would choose to do. Nobody has a say-so in what I choose to do.

being raised in the culture versus just leeching onto it and expecting them to just accept you.

I don’t need everybody to accept me; if my friends and family are okay with it, so am I.

Except Asia as a region and Asia as a racial group are not the same: people's ignorance is not an excuse if we can properly educate on it and help address those issues of cultural ignorance

I think that’s more of an american thing. As I said before,in America , Asia means Far East Asia. In parts of Europe, it means Middle East Asia; two different types of people.

 

[muichimotsu]

I don’t find that to be necessary in this case. If you expect me to take your objection seriously, you need to explain what you find wrong with my interpretation of this data.

That you think it's representative of any group of people that's significant rather than a limited sampling which amounts to anecdotal evidence in the first place.

I already agree other minorities are under represented; I’m speaking about black people only

Ah, goalpost shifting now? If you want to keep dancing around the issue, then present evidence of my position being mistaken, you've already brought up supposed numbers otherwise, why is it so difficult to do this in countering my evidence I've brought forward, except by changing what the standards are versus what is still an issue in the first place and you've admitted it.

Police brutality as an example of institutional/systemic racism?
In order for police brutality to be an example of institutional racism, the institution of law enforcement itself, or that specific jurisdiction must be created in such a manner that the institution will remain racist no matter the persons holding positions within it.
In short, if you were given free reign to remove all officers within that jurisdiction and replace them with a new group of officers hand chosen by you, would said racism remain?
If replacing the variables within the system this way; in this case the officers, would cleanse the system of racism, then institutional racism did not exist, it was just another example of corrupt cops going against the rules of the system in order to brutalize innocent people.
However, if you remove / replace all variables within the system with new variables known to be non-corrupt from the systems intention (in this case if you replace all cops with people known to not be racist), yet the system remains corrupt (racist here), then institutional racism exists.

the problem is in protocol, that would be there even if you replaced everyone, because how their actions are guided, societal biases against black people: assuming they can't possibly have a nice car, that they're suspicious in some areas they couldn't possibly reside in, etc.

And no, your solution doesn't change things if it's in the institution itself, the people are not the same as the institution, changing that entirely does not change the institution fundamentally except in particular staffing at best.

And people can still be racist in an implicit manner, you haven't even established what constitutes racism, you seem to assume it's just an innate idea we can agree upon, except it's clearly not

Jim Crow laws were an example of institutional racism because (example) no matter how fair the bus driver was, he still would require black people to sit in the back of the bus because those were the laws of the transit system at that time.
My question to you is, what laws within the Police Department are you referring to that would cause non corrupt cops to engage in police brutality?

Again, you don't understand what systemic racism means, you keep mischaracterizing it as if it MUST involve laws when that is not explicitly the only manifestation at all. Societal biases are not necessarily legislated in regards to our interactions with people based on race. Jim Crow is not the standard used in regards to systemic racism, it's merely one manifestation in particular as regards legislation, which is not the only way it manifests at all.

 

[muichimotsu]

I didn’t say you did! Where are you getting this stuff?

Why even bring up the background check if you don't think it has anything to do with their response at all? It's part of it, but the response in denying you the loan or suggesting some other alternative in other circumstances, like housing, doesn't have to be about some verifiable criminal record or such, just biases based on your skin color

What is it about this phenomenon that prevents me from adopting it? (please be specific)

That it is done by being raised in the culture, not merely being exposed to it as we tend to be over our lives. It's a lived experience, not a mere intellectual understanding

Cultural adoption is something I would choose to do. Nobody has a say-so in what I choose to do.

You would choose to do it and be rightfully castigated for doing so because it isn't something you can do with any legitimacy. Like I can try to be Japanese or such, it doesn't mean I will be and you deciding to try and be, say, Inuit, is no more possible than me trying to be Japanese. We can understand their cultures and gain an appreciation for it and why they practice as they do with such things, but it isn't the same as adopting the culture. Involvement with the culture is distinct from affirming it as an identity and I found a decent summary of the issue

"
our cultures are the ones you grow up and live in. Culture is all about the influence your environment and the people you are around have on you. <And this matches with definitions of culture that are utilized commonly>

You can choose to learn about cultures, or join social groups/move somewhere so that you grow into a different culture, but you can't decide “This culture looks cool I'm going to take it.” If you do that, you're essentially picking and choosing your favorite parts of another culture without actually having any relation to it, and you'll seem fake, like you're wearing a Halloween costume. This is called cultural appropriation."

At most, there can be cultures in the subculture sense that you could adopt, but I'm specifically referring to ethnic cultures or even racial cultures as overlaps with that, like with black culture in the broader American experience (like Gullah culture, as I keep referencing)

I don’t need everybody to accept me; if my friends and family are okay with it, so am I.

That's purely selfish at that point, then, you don't even care if you're remotely accused of cultural appropriation, because you 1) don't think it matters or 2) don't think it exists based on outright ignorance

I think that’s more of an american thing. As I said before,in America , Asia means Far East Asia. In parts of Europe, it means Middle East Asia; two different types of people.

And neither of those is necessarily accurate in terms of what is being referred to for a racial group, versus a regional or national idea

 

[Ken-1122]

That you think it's representative of any group of people that's significant rather than a limited sampling which amounts to anecdotal evidence in the first place.

In other words, you aren’t gonna answer my question. Why am I not surprised? I think I’m done with this one.

Ah, goalpost shifting now? If you want to keep dancing around the issue, then present evidence of my position being mistaken,

You are the one shifting the goalposts, from the start this conversation was about black vs white, now you’re trying to bring in gays, asians, and other groups. That’s shifting the goal posts

the problem is in protocol, that would be there even if you replaced everyone, because how their actions are guided, societal biases against black people: assuming they can't possibly have a nice car, that they're suspicious in some areas they couldn't possibly reside in, etc.

That would be an example of a corrupt officer. I said if all officers were replaced with non corrupt officers

And no, your solution doesn't change things if it's in the institution itself, the people are not the same as the institution, changing that entirely does not change the institution fundamentally except in particular staffing at best.

So explain exactly what needs to be changed about the institution if staffing isn’t the issue.

 

[coffee4u]

In other words, you aren’t gonna answer my question. Why am I not surprised? I think I’m done with this one.

You are the one shifting the goalposts, from the start this conversation was about black vs white, now you’re trying to bring in gays, asians, and other groups. That’s shifting the goal posts

That would be an example of a corrupt officer. I said if all officers were replaced with non corrupt officers

So explain exactly what needs to be changed about the institution if staffing isn’t the issue.

Who are you talking too? Must be someone I have on ignore (handy little feature) since you appear to be taking to nobody.

 

[muichimotsu]

In other words, you aren’t gonna answer my question. Why am I not surprised? I think I’m done with this one.

Your question is loaded to the idea that I have to interpret it so specifically when I've made it clear I don't generalize here, I'm considering racial bias in a broad sense that is going to vary by individual. Some black people wanting to be white or white people wanting to be black is not indicative that whiteness is less or more popular, your study is basically useless by probably any indications of methodology alone

You are the one shifting the goalposts, from the start this conversation was about black vs white, now you’re trying to bring in gays, asians, and other groups. That’s shifting the goal posts

You made it about blacks, I'm pretty sure I said systemic racism favored white people, I didn't specify black people except in terms of the discussion's flow, Asians, Hispanics, etc also have that problem in regards to a society that regards whiteness as the norm

That would be an example of a corrupt officer. I said if all officers were replaced with non corrupt officers

The problem is not purely the officers, it's how the institution has underlying biases in how it treats people of color in general, that isn't fixed by changing people, it's by changing the institution itself fundamentally. The institution is not identical with the people in it, except in terms of simple staffing

So explain exactly what needs to be changed about the institution if staffing isn’t the issue.

Their poor training of officers in de-escalation as well as sending them to solve seemingly any issue rather than having professionals who are equipped to deal with issues that police shouldn't have to deal with in their job if we're talking about law enforcement not being on the level of a military force

As I said, it's protocol, not even just the official stuff, but ideas that are perpetuated, especially in urban areas, that will treat black people like violent criminals based on hasty generalization and compositional fallacy

 

[Aldebaran]

And that's still not all there is, opportunity is not in a vacuum like you think, our behaviors are not without biases, especially with cultural conditioning that arguably exists.

You make it sound as if people who are black don't even have minds of their own, but are simply a product of whatever white people supposedly want them to be. The way you talk about black people in such a condescending way is more racist and white supremacist than anything you're accusing me of.

White people thinking there's no problem is explained in part by the fact that for most of this country's history they were regarded as the norm, the hegemonical majority that guided culture and black people, Hispanic people, etc, were those that should be "grateful" to white people for "civilizing" them or other such nonsense

Are you suggesting that their stereotypical violent behavior is simply them trying to assert their uncivilized roots?

 

[Ken-1122]

Why even bring up the background check if you don't think it has anything to do with their response at all?

You claimed they would probably question if I made enough money for such a loan, I said the background check would confirm that. I did

That it is done by being raised in the culture,

You don’t have to be born and raised in a culture in order to become a part of it.

You would choose to do it and be rightfully castigated for doing so because it isn't something you can do with any legitimacy.

Castigated by who? Everybody in the culture? No; there will always be friends and family who accept me.

Like I can try to be Japanese or such, it doesn't mean I will be and you deciding to try and be, say, Inuit, is no more possible than me trying to be Japanese.

If a Japanese man can leave Japan, come to the United States and become an American, what’s to stop you from leaving your country, and doing the same?

our cultures are the ones you grow up and live in. Culture is all about the influence your environment and the people you are around have on you. <And this matches with definitions of culture that are utilized commonly>

Again you don’t have to be born and grow up in a culture in order to become a part of it

 

[muichimotsu]

You make it sound as if people who are black don't even have minds of their own, but are simply a product of whatever white people supposedly want them to be. The way you talk about black people in such a condescending way is more racist and white supremacist than anything you're accusing me of.

No, I didn't remotely insinuate that, you're making a leap in logic.

Hardly: I recognize my privileged status and work to do something about it instead of just thinking things are fine the way they are based on my limited perspective as a white person in a culture founded on white people exploiting people of color. Or do you not think that was the case for America's founding?

Are you suggesting that their stereotypical violent behavior is simply them trying to assert their uncivilized roots?

Wow, way to put words in my mouth. Their roots are more complex than they may realize, same as anyone's, but black people being forced to conform to whatever standards America appears to have, which shift over the generations, makes them alienated from their ethnic culture, in a way white people can barely relate to, since we can find out more about our cultural roots, having never been dehumanized and treated like chattel as black people in particular were, among other atrocities against people of color (need I bring up settlers' treatment of Native americans?)

 

[muichimotsu]

You claimed they would probably question if I made enough money for such a loan, I said the background check would confirm that. I did

I said that was one possible factor, I don't pretend to know the reasons why someone might deny a person of color a loan, which is partly because I'm so privileged unfortunately that I don't really understand that experience as much as I should

You don’t have to be born and raised in a culture in order to become a part of it.

In terms of cultures that are not ethnic, of course, but in terms of those that are linked to that identity, as a Hispanic person for instance, it isn't just something you can adopt, you can participate in it, which isn't the same thing unless you're trying to be pedantic

Castigated by who? Everybody in the culture? No; there will always be friends and family who accept me.

That's not how things work by necessity, unless you just have slavish facile friends who don't care about whether something is true or not, just that they accept you, which is absurd

If a Japanese man can leave Japan, come to the United States and become an American, what’s to stop you from leaving your country, and doing the same?

Never said there was, I think you're confusing the adoption of a culture with acculturation, they're not the same, because the former is being raised in it, like a Japanese person who is a racial Asian, but was raised in American culture and thus it would be difficult to adopt Japanese culture. It doesn't mean they can't strive to understand it, but culture is a lived experience, arguably, it's not just academic facts or such.

Again you don’t have to be born and grow up in a culture in order to become a part of it

You keep asserting this, but you're not understanding the nuance of terms, which was not me saying you cannot be a part of it in the general sense of cultural exchange or even acculturation. But an ethnic culture is about something you have been raised in. Alienation is a problem, certainly, but it doesn't mean people can just pick and choose their cultural identity as it relates to ethnicity, versus a subculture for something like being a nudist (also a lifestyle choice, I think)

 

[Ken-1122]

Who are you talking too? Must be someone I have on ignore (handy little feature) since you appear to be taking to nobody.

I was responding to muichimotsu post #367

 

[Ken-1122]

The problem is not purely the officers, it's how the institution has underlying biases in how it treats people of color in general, that isn't fixed by changing people, it's by changing the institution itself fundamentally. The institution is not identical with the people in it, except in terms of simple staffing

Give an example how an institution, not the people employed by the institution; but the institution itself can treat white people better than black and brown people.

Their poor training of officers in de-escalation as well as sending them to solve seemingly any issue rather than having professionals who are equipped to deal with issues that police shouldn't have to deal with in their job if we're talking about law enforcement not being on the level of a military force

Poor training and not having professionals with officers for certain issues affects white people as much as anyone else. How can you call that racist? Care to try again? Again; what needs to change concerning the institution to prevent it from being racist?

I said that was one possible factor,

My point is, it wouldn’t be a factor.

In terms of cultures that are not ethnic, of course,

Give an example of a culture that is not ethnic.

That's not how things work by necessity, unless you just have slavish facile friends who don't care about whether something is true or not, just that they accept you, which is absurd

You can use whatever pejorative you want to describe those who refuse to live according to your standards, but not everybody will do as you say they will.

Never said there was, I think you're confusing the adoption of a culture with acculturation, they're not the same, because the former is being raised in it, like a Japanese person who is a racial Asian, but was raised in American culture and thus it would be difficult to adopt Japanese culture.

You keep asserting this, but you're not understanding the nuance of terms, which was not me saying you cannot be a part of it in the general sense of cultural exchange or even acculturation. But an ethnic culture is about something you have been raised in. Alienation is a problem, certainly, but it doesn't mean people can just pick and choose their cultural identity as it relates to ethnicity, versus a subculture for something like being a nudist (also a lifestyle choice, I think)

What do you base this on? Where is it written that you must be raised in a Culture in order to be a part of it? Do you have an outside source to confirm this claim? Or am I expected to assume that because you say so, therefore it is true.

 

[coffee4u]

I was responding to muichimotsu post #367

Yes, I finaly realized there is a 'see content to ignored uses' button. I am ignoring at least two of them so on my end it looks like you are posting to yourself.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, I finaly realized there is a 'see content to ignored uses' button. I am ignoring at least two of them so on my end it looks like you are posting to yourself.

Okay I get it. I've never used the ignore button so I don't know how it works, but thanks for the insight.

K

 

[muichimotsu]

Give an example how an institution, not the people employed by the institution; but the institution itself can treat white people better than black and brown people.

Do I need to point to instances where a white person and black person commit the same crime, yet one is punished far more harshly and supposedly that tends to be black people, with seemingly no real justification beyond biases about how black people somehow are more dangerous or criminal that persists in the justice system

Poor training and not having professionals with officers for certain issues affects white people as much as anyone else. How can you call that racist? Care to try again? Again; what needs to change concerning the institution to prevent it from being racist?

Because of the disproportionate affect on black people: white people being affected to some extent does not dismiss the effects on black people being higher per capita, or did you not grasp that important qualification?

My point is, it wouldn’t be a factor.

You assert that, yet ignore anything otherwise, which is reductionistic

Give an example of a culture that is not ethnic.

Oh boy, you just opened up a pandora's box. Culture can apply to any sociological group with sufficient complexity in terms of development of material or non material aspects. Gun culture comes to mind almost immediately, but drinking culture, etc, also apply. And you have LGBTQ culture as well, not ethnic, but a sexual identity. Even sports culture works, because it doesn't care about ethnicity, it cares about adherence to this idea of promoting a sports team, etc.

Heck, there's religious cultures you can associate to Judaism as a religious identity alongside the ethnic identity: but it isn't excluding non Jews, ethnically speaking, it welcomes them, because the practice is religious, not ethnic necessarily

You can use whatever pejorative you want to describe those who refuse to live according to your standards, but not everybody will do as you say they will.

Nice strawman, I'm not for forcing conformity, I'm for having an honest exchange instead of dishonestly characterizing what someone says as a contrast to whatever preconception one might have

What do you base this on? Where is it written that you must be raised in a Culture in order to be a part of it? Do you have an outside source to confirm this claim? Or am I expected to assume that because you say so, therefore it is true

Do you think there's a dogma of culture, like some rule in regards to the study rather than a convention? It's an academic discipline and you don't have to take my word for it if you actually have even an iota of curiosity. By all means counter the claims, I can point out that I didn't say this about all cultures and I didn't say it about merely participating, I specifically said, several times, that it was cultural ADOPTION, which is not the same as cultural EXCHANGE.

It's like you're not reading it except in a hasty fashion to find something to criticize and not even consider the overall context of the discussion, which is not only dishonest, but lazy.