Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

[Ken-1122]

I didn't say it was done knowingly, you're putting words in my mouth implicitly, as if this is done maliciously rather than in ignorance of societal biases, not a thing we're always conscious of, because it's just "how it always was,"

You’ve obviously misunderstood me. I never questioned if it was done with intentionally or with malice, I only questioned if it was done.

How is that even a representative sample, first off? A few dozen, even 24 or so is hardly anything indicative of total culture and more importantly, you're forgetting that white is still the majority answer, even with the mixed race, because it's not mixed races that aren't white, it's white mixed with another race, which shows that bias still.

No, the fact that the white people preferred to be something other than what they already are shows they have a bias against themselves; something the other races did not have.

 

[Ken-1122]

The problem is you won't always recognize that when cultural biases are treated as the norm and aren't challenged or are dismissed by the majority in being challenged, like how people did with segregation

Under segregation, white people knew black people weren’t getting equal treatment. They knew exactly what they were doing.

More strawmanning, I didn't say that, because you're ascribing malice and intentionality to it when this is a cultural bias many white people aren't aware of because they're used to the privileged status they don't even necessarily recognize

I didn’t say anything about it being intentionally or with malice. Again; what evidence do you have that majority of white people have bias against black people, and work as a group to hold us down?

I gave you the answer, you apparently don't want to consider that even with BET or such, white people still get leads more often and are given that kind of favor, unconsciously. You're goalpost shifting to say this was about the average black person or white person versus society giving more regard to white people in popular culture

Okay; so you;re talking about celebrities now? Okay; currently there are approx 5 times as many white people in this country than there are black people. Are you going to present evidence that there are more than 5 times as many white celebrities than black celebrities? I know there are more black celebrities than brown celebrities, even though brown people out number us; but what stats do you have on black vs white celebrities?

I didn't say to be pessimistic, I said to be skeptical, there's a difference. REgarding people as automatically having malice is also not what I'm saying in that bias, because implicit biases are not intentional, they're usually ignorance based in acculturation and complacency with something because you aren't negatively affected in the way others of a different skin color are going to say they are.

The problem with “implicit bias” is that it is usually an empty accusation that cannot be refuted nor confirmed, it’s just an empty accusation.

And that'd be their race, not their ethnicity. Spanish is a Hispanic focused language, that's irrelevant to race, because you can be a certain race and still participate in another ethnicity's culture, like their language.

Most white people you know probably don't care about their ethnicity at all, not that I'm much better, I barely recall I can trace my family back to maybe French or British roots, which is vague anyway. But I think you don't know the difference or they don't understand that nuance between race and ethnicity

My point is, when we say black people, we are not talking about Nigerian Americans, or South African Americans, we are talking about black people in america who are a part of an american culture. When you say white people, we aren’t talking about French Americans or British Americans, we are talking about white people in America who are a part of an American culture

That's not the only other option, your argument boils down to a false dichotomy, the government can intervene in ways that aren't as extreme and help, it isn't just the government automatically is wrong regardless of what they do and they should just leave everything alone, that's anarchy.

Don’t get me wrong, there has been a lot of things the Government has done for black people that was good! (ending slavery, ending jim crow laws, giving us our citizenship rights etc.) I’m just saying it seems most of the things they have been doing specifically for us as of late has turned out to do more harm than good.

 

[muichimotsu]

You’ve obviously misunderstood me. I never questioned if it was done with intentionally or with malice, I only questioned if it was done.

The problem is that it can be done and people who are convinced it isn't a problem not seeing it because they'd prefer the status quo and not rocking the boat, which is enabling the problem: it's a vicious cycle

No, the fact that the white people preferred to be something other than what they already are shows they have a bias against themselves; something the other races did not have.

If the other races wanted to also be white, that shows you how privileged white people are in regards to social biases with treatment, even if it doesn't mean it is wholly prejudiced in explicit legislation. I still don't think you're grasping that this isn't about laws so much as social norms and biases, which are going to be enforced differently, since they don't have the same impact, but are held authoritatively as norms by people who don't want to question or haven't considered questioning them


But more importantly, you completely dodged the elephant in the room: your "study" is nothing representative and barely has a control in the first place beyond the racial category of the people involved. How many choices did you give them? I'm no expert, but I'm also not taking your supposed study as anything more than anecdotal confirmation bias towards your position that whites are somehow treated with equity in contrast to merely having the segregation mindset that's convinced many people

 

[muichimotsu]

Under segregation, white people knew black people weren’t getting equal treatment. They knew exactly what they were doing.

It was considered equal in spite of the separation, it's the kind of nonsense that's still purported as some advancement in spite of systemic issues we observe, especially in urban areas

I didn’t say anything about it being intentionally or with malice. Again; what evidence do you have that majority of white people have bias against black people, and work as a group to hold us down?

And you skew the words again to suggest it's intentional when you initially say you weren't claiming that. Working as a group to hold black people down would be intentional, the biases are going to work only when a majority buy into them, even if they don't all agree as to why it is the way it is or that it should be that way. Having a bias and working intentionally against a group are not the same thing: my point of enabling is the issue moreso than any concerted efforts, because again, that suggests this is purely conscious

Okay; so you;re talking about celebrities now? Okay; currently there are approx 5 times as many white people in this country than there are black people. Are you going to present evidence that there are more than 5 times as many white celebrities than black celebrities? I know there are more black celebrities than brown celebrities, even though brown people out number us; but what stats do you have on black vs white celebrities?

Who is calling them brown? Are you referring to a specific group now or just trying to bring up a term that I'm skeptical is remotely in the common parlance versus black as equivalent to African ancestry or such

I'm not claiming I had stats, but you seem to have such information, by all means present that evidence to counter what is a general observation and not a statement of absolute fact on my part

The problem with “implicit bias” is that it is usually an empty accusation that cannot be refuted nor confirmed, it’s just an empty accusation.

Pretty sure we have experiments that show this in one form or another (I'm remembering a brief mention about an experiment with dolls that show kids preferred the white doll to the black doll among both white and black children, which was relevant for desegregation in acknowledging that there were negative effects on black children and a bias towards white children because of those laws, but not exclusively due to them) and there's also the consideration of experience as, when properly documented and structured for a methodological study, something that is a valid evidence to present and not unfalsifiable at all, but an initial subjective idea that has to be further investigated

There's also this essay that addresses white privilege from over 30 years ago that still feels pretty relevant for the subject

National SEED Project - 'White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack' and 'Some Notes for Facilitators

My point is, when we say black people, we are not talking about Nigerian Americans, or South African Americans, we are talking about black people in america who are a part of an american culture. When you say white people, we aren’t talking about French Americans or British Americans, we are talking about white people in America who are a part of an American culture

No one is saying we were talking about those, which are ethnic or national identities, while race is a social construct referring to a group that can overlap with it, but not necessarily by the nature of the terms

American culture is a nationality or ethnicity, not a race, while white designates a race. Black culture would be the exception to that because of how there were cultures that formed in part because of how race as a category kept black people with African ancestry isolated and they had to create their own more syncretic versions, like Gullah culture.

So much of this appears to be you trying to deflect and oversimplify the whole issue as if race is not an issue at all and it should just be about ethnicity or nationality, as if race is purely optional as an identifier for people rather than it being an initial thing we do, rather than the absurd idea of being color blind to race, which pretends the differences don't exist at all.

Btw, I must emphasize I was mistaken, Hispanic/Latino are not considered a race, but an ethnic group, which is where you have that overlap that exists with someone that is Hispanic/Latino ethnically, but identifies as white as to their race or multiracial. The whole aspect has a lot of historical baggage to unpack, but it shows how the distinction is important

Don’t get me wrong, there has been a lot of things the Government has done for black people that was good! (ending slavery, ending jim crow laws, giving us our citizenship rights etc.) I’m just saying it seems most of the things they have been doing specifically for us as of late has turned out to do more harm than good

Slavery was ended begrudgingly after a civil war, Jim Crow laws were ended in a similar fashion because people refused to consider that the 14th amendment applied to the states as well as the federal government

Turning out to have that harmful nature doesn't mean that there cannot be good things done. We need to have a dialogue about this, not just one group being stubborn and insisting things were fine the way they were, when they clearly weren't with black people having to struggle to gain civil rights and still struggling in terms of voter suppression targeting them because they, for instance, have more difficulties getting access, getting a photo ID, etc.

 

[FredVB]

It was considered equal in spite of the separation, it's the kind of nonsense that's still purported as some advancement in spite of systemic issues we observe, especially in urban areas.

I do not believe that it was considered equal treatment. It was apparent that those separated with segregation did not have equal privilege. They never did. Only with equal privelege will there be actual equality in the system.

 

[Aldebaran]

Bullcrap, that's not how stereotypes work, they aren't some nebulous independent thing that people are affected by like a parasite, they're culturally conditioned and spread by memesis, by people enabling and encouraging them rather than spreading the idea that they are broad generalizations and unhelpful to positive social interactions and better relations between different racial or ethnic groups.

What are white people doing to "encourage" any black people to buy fancy rims and high-end sound systems for their beat up Caddy? How does a white person "encourage" a black person to pull out a knife and attempt to stab a cop?

 

[Aldebaran]

Wow, it's astounding how much you buy into the very racism you seem to claim you aren't enabling when the idea of that black stereotype being the norm is not remotely the case.

Now you're attempting to use circular reasoning to support your beliefs. That does nothing to make me agree with your beliefs.

I knew black people growing up in the South and none of them remotely tried to do that. At best, there was acting out, but that wasn't done to try and fit into black stereotypes, but to assert their individuality in some way, especially if they were struggling with a difficult home situation.

Asserting their individuality by conforming to a stereotype???

 

[Ken-1122]

The problem is that it can be done and people who are convinced it isn't a problem not seeing it because they'd prefer the status quo and not rocking the boat, which is enabling the problem: it's a vicious cycle

I have no doubt this is done occasionally, I am just skeptical as to whether this is done by the majority of white people.

If the other races wanted to also be white, that shows you how privileged white people are in regards to social biases with treatment, even if it doesn't mean it is wholly prejudiced in explicit legislation.

I didn't say other races wanted to also be white, I said they were all over the place, meaning some wanted to remain as they were, others wanted to be mixed, (whatever they are plus something else etc) or a different race all together.

 

[muichimotsu]

I do not believe that it was considered equal treatment. It was apparent that those separated with segregation did not have equal privilege. They never did. Only with equal privelege will there be actual equality in the system.

Could swear it's equal opportunity, privilege is the opposite of equality because it's specialized treatment, and that's even moreso when we're talking about skin color as any kind of qualification for that privileged treatment

 

[muichimotsu]

I have no doubt this is done occasionally, I am just skeptical as to whether this is done by the majority of white people.

Then, I don't know, you could ask white people instead of assuming you think you know how they think.

I didn't say other races wanted to also be white, I said they were all over the place, meaning some wanted to remain as they were, others wanted to be mixed, (whatever they are plus something else etc) or a different race all together.

Then the issue is not whiteness being treated overwhelmingly bad unless you could demonstrate that, which would require likely much more stringent methodology to even start to get something resembling a representative sample

 

[muichimotsu]

Now you're attempting to use circular reasoning to support your beliefs. That does nothing to make me agree with your beliefs.

It isn't circular when I can demonstrate the black stereotype you are encouraging, a racist idea, is not indicative of black people as a whole and thus you're part of the problem in not acknowledging skin color and its diversity, preferring to generalize

Asserting their individuality by conforming to a stereotype???

If that's all they have, they don't realize it's a stereotype. Not sure how you find this hilarious except that you as a white person can just take any culture you want and use it as if it's part of your identity and no one bats an eye because of the societal privilege white people get in regards to such blatant cultural appropriation and insensitivity. It's like you haven't even considered that you have these advantages in society because it's never been brought up to you: shocking.

 

[muichimotsu]

What are white people doing to "encourage" any black people to buy fancy rims and high-end sound systems for their beat up Caddy? How does a white person "encourage" a black person to pull out a knife and attempt to stab a cop?

Suggesting that the only way to get by in the world is to posture like you have affluence, same as white people do. Except in the latter case, white people are still expected to be more successful, black people having to struggle more by comparison

Nice strawman: I didn't remotely suggest white people encouraged crimes: they enable the situation where black people feel desperate enough to resort to crime. It isn't exclusively a racial issue, but even considering issues of a shrinking middle class, white people seem disproportionately advantaged to having means and hoarding them, not putting back into society meaningfully, but only to further line their own pockets under the appearance of magnanimity

 

[Ken-1122]

It was considered equal in spite of the separation,

No it was not. When Jim Crow laws were established, there was no attempt to make treatment between the races equal. These people knew forcing black people to the back of the bus, entering through the back door, and the public facilities that were separated were not equal.

And you skew the words again to suggest it's intentional when you initially say you weren't claiming that. Working as a group to hold black people down would be intentional, the biases are going to work only when a majority buy into them, even if they don't all agree as to why it is the way it is or that it should be that way. Having a bias and working intentionally against a group are not the same thing: my point of enabling is the issue moreso than any concerted efforts, because again, that suggests this is purely conscious

Here is where I’m trying to get at; on post #287 you said (paraphrasing) white people will not have the perspective that will allow them to remain bias free against black people. Now that sounds like an awful bold statement; how do you know this? How can you judge all white people this way?

Who is calling them brown?

I was referring to Mexicans when I said brown. Care to answer the question?

I'm not claiming I had stats, but you seem to have such information, by all means present that evidence to counter what is a general observation and not a statement of absolute fact on my part

So why in post #287 you claimed whites are the focus when it comes to films TV etc. if you didn’t have stats or anything to back it up?

Pretty sure we have experiments that show this in one form or another (I'm remembering a brief mention about an experiment with dolls that show kids preferred the white doll to the black doll among both white and black children, which was relevant for desegregation in acknowledging that there were negative effects on black children and a bias towards white children because of those laws, but not exclusively due to them) and there's also the consideration of experience as, when properly documented and structured for a methodological study, something that is a valid evidence to present and not unfalsifiable at all, but an initial subjective idea that has to be further investigated

There's also this essay that addresses white privilege from over 30 years ago that still feels pretty relevant for the subject

National SEED Project - 'White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack' and 'Some Notes for Facilitators

Though I didn’t read it in it’s entirety, I did scan over it a bit and IMO this guy did a horrible job of making his point. He seemed to just make a bunch of empty claims. A lot of his 26 points he made that is supposed to be evidence of white privilege, does not apply to all white people an as many would apply to me as the average white person. Like
#1. Does he really believe white people are the only ones who can arrange to be in the company of their own race?
#2 Does he really believe white people are the only ones who can afford to live in a neighborhood that they would want to live in
#3 He doesn’t think black people have neighbors who are pleasant?
#4 Does he really believe black people always get harassed when we go shopping?

G.W. Bush spoke of the soft bigotry of low expectations….. this guy takes it to a whole new level!

American culture is a nationality or ethnicity, not a race, while white designates a race.

Black designates a race also

Black culture would be the exception to that because of how there were cultures that formed in part because of how race as a category kept black people with African ancestry isolated and they had to create their own more syncretic versions, like Gullah culture.

No; Black is not an exception. Anybody regardless of how you look can adopt a culture or ethnicity any time they want. Black or white is different.

Slavery was ended begrudgingly after a civil war, Jim Crow laws were ended in a similar fashion because people refused to consider that the 14th amendment applied to the states as well as the federal government

Turning out to have that harmful nature doesn't mean that there cannot be good things done. We need to have a dialogue about this, not just one group being stubborn and insisting things were fine the way they were, when they clearly weren't with black people having to struggle to gain civil rights and still struggling in terms of voter suppression targeting them because they, for instance, have more difficulties getting access, getting a photo ID, etc.

Do you really believe black people have more difficulties getting photo ID compared to white people? Do you really think that little of us? Daay-umm!!! Talking ‘bout the soft bigotry of low expectations; (shaking my head)

 

[coffee4u]

I have no doubt this is done occasionally, I am just skeptical as to whether this is done by the majority of white people.

I didn't say other races wanted to also be white, I said they were all over the place, meaning some wanted to remain as they were, others wanted to be mixed, (whatever they are plus something else etc) or a different race all together.

There is only one race, the human race; and most people are a mix of different ethnic backgrounds whether they know it or not.

 

[Ken-1122]

Then, I don't know, you could ask white people instead of assuming you think you know how they think.

You are the one in this conversation making claims on how white people think, and what they do; remember? I am the one who is skeptical about your claims.

Then the issue is not whiteness being treated overwhelmingly bad unless you could demonstrate that,

I didn't comment on how they were being treated, I commented on how they feel about being white.

 

[Ken-1122]

There is only one race, the human race; and most people are a mix of different ethnic backgrounds whether they know it or not.

One race the human race huh? Yeah; that’s cute and all, but in the real world, there are specific physical characteristics most people have, and we attribute those characteristics as race. This is a reality whether you like it or not; proclaiming a single race being the human race does not change that.

 

[muichimotsu]

No it was not. When Jim Crow laws were established, there was no attempt to make treatment between the races equal. These people knew forcing black people to the back of the bus, entering through the back door, and the public facilities that were separated were not equal.

And yet the idea persisted for probably 60 years or more, something must've been pushing that and I'd argue it's in no small part that white people weren't affected by it, so they didn't see it as a problem, not to mention the "separate but equal" line

Here is where I’m trying to get at; on post #287 you said (paraphrasing) white people will not have the perspective that will allow them to remain bias free against black people. Now that sounds like an awful bold statement; how do you know this? How can you judge all white people this way?

I'm advising perspective, I'm not claiming all white people have the same amount of issue with it, some white people don't because they've actually had many friends of different color and even understand their struggles rather than just paying lipservice, like, "Oh yeah, I have minority friends"

I was referring to Mexicans when I said brown. Care to answer the question?

Mexican is a subset of Hispanic and still misses the point, because I'm not saying Hispanic people aren't struggling as well, but it's arguably different. Maybe we could ask Hispanic people instead of assuming either of us knows their lived experiences

So why in post #287 you claimed whites are the focus when it comes to films TV etc. if you didn’t have stats or anything to back it up?

I was speaking in generalities, I wasn't making a statement of absolute statistical fact

Though I didn’t read it in it’s entirety, I did scan over it a bit and IMO this guy did a horrible job of making his point. He seemed to just make a bunch of empty claims. A lot of his 26 points he made that is supposed to be evidence of white privilege, does not apply to all white people an as many would apply to me as the average white person. Like

Uh...the writer's a woman, which is kind of important, given she also, I believe, has written on male privilege, which is a whole other discussion

#1. Does he really believe white people are the only ones who can arrange to be in the company of their own race?
#2 Does he really believe white people are the only ones who can afford to live in a neighborhood that they would want to live in
#3 He doesn’t think black people have neighbors who are pleasant?
#4 Does he really believe black people always get harassed when we go shopping?

#1-It's likely more common, white people, to my knowledge, are still the majority and that's especially the case, I'd imagine in rural areas
#2-When white people may very well be getting approved for loans or given preferential treatment by banks, it's not uncommon
#3-Pleasant and equitable might be the nuance we're getting at, the article may need more specification on that, because you can have "pleasant" neighbors and they still are passive aggressive or otherwise not creating the best environment for the neighborhood, like being inconsiderate
#4-Have you not seen any news stories about people calling the cops on black people in a situation that seems purely based on their being black and it being a majority white area? There's probably dozens in 2019 alone and it's especially common in urban areas, I think, because of that stratification that happens, as if black people are somehow going to cause trouble. Not everyone thinks that, but some people buy into it and that's the problem. We're moving past it, but it's not really being confronted as something white people aren't dealing with in the same manner.

G.W. Bush spoke of the soft bigotry of low expectations….. this guy takes it to a whole new level!

The fact that you assume they're a man without any consideration it might be a woman already speaks volumes on male privilege, but this isn't about low expectations, it's pointing out the explicit differences white people have in their lived experience versus black people. There can be exceptions to the rule, this isn't a hard and fast notion. There are invisible biases involved culturally and that can also vary by area, like in places where black people perhaps are more prominent. Though there's also problems in that potentially, like in Memphis TN, supposedly one of the more dangerous cities to be in after dark and it isn't just because it's a city, but because of negative behavior in regards to urban neighborhoods, which supposedly have more black people. There are assumptions involved there that ignore more fundamental problems that are causing this and that's the white privilege playing in again

Black designates a race also

Your point? White culture and white race are not the same idea and they don't bear out either

No; Black is not an exception. Anybody regardless of how you look can adopt a culture or ethnicity any time they want. Black or white is different.

No, white people cannot just adopt a culture, nor can black people, that's why it's called cultural appropriation, because you haven't earned it

Do you really believe black people have more difficulties getting photo ID compared to white people? Do you really think that little of us? Daay-umm!!! Talking ‘bout the soft bigotry of low expectations; (shaking my head)

Way to put words in my mouth: I didn't say it was more difficult by necessity, but that it is made more difficult in some areas, especially with regards to more GOP dominated areas, an issue of gerrymandering in no small part as I recall.

It isn't the expectation of that, it is pointing out the inconsistency, which is different from insinuating laziness from black people, the kind of stereotype that is damaging on its face. When a black person tries hard and still gets nothing, what does that tell you? It isn't always just the system in a neutral manner, suggesting race plays no part is naive to history and evidence in terms of observing the disproportionate treatment

 

[muichimotsu]

One race the human race huh? Yeah; that’s cute and all, but in the real world, there are specific physical characteristics most people have, and we attribute those characteristics as race. This is a reality whether you like it or not; proclaiming a single race being the human race does not change that.

Isn't that the color blindness aspect I brought up to you and you seemingly were endorsing that idea, while here you acknowledge race as a thing that cultures should recognize?

 

[muichimotsu]

You are the one in this conversation making claims on how white people think, and what they do; remember? I am the one who is skeptical about your claims.

I'm observing patterns, I'm not claiming absolute knowledge of specific thought patterns, but that there are biases that exist, in part because of culture glorifying and emphasizing whiteness, which is especially prominent in the South with Lost Cause of the Confederacy ideology that acts like white people "saved the world" or such, which is also an underlying idea that informs white privilege, if I had to argue

I didn't comment on how they were being treated, I commented on how they feel about being white.

But whiteness wasn't the primary goal, was it? Where's the actual "study" you did in the first place and actual recorded data?

 

[Strathos]

Those that they do fit are only inviting those stereotypes to survive, regardless of the color of the person who portrays them.

So you think it's fair to stereotype entire races, nationalities, and populations of people based on a small subset that is given lots of media exposure?