Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

[Mark Quayle]

In reformed/Calvinist doctrine, because God decreed the fall of man into sin, men are born totally depraved and spiritually dead, and thus unable to believe at all until first regenerated and made alive, and then they can believe.

Yes, because they are slaves to sin, they WILL not to believe. And they will ALWAYS do so until God regenerates them.

 

[Mark Quayle]

But for the non elect, God has arbitrarily decreed that He will withhold regeneration, and leave them spiritually dead and unable to believe - but then damns them to hell for not believing.

You make it sound as though God ungraciously withholds something unfairly. You are dead wrong in this. God graciously regenerates those he has chosen, which has no relation to the fact that the rest are continuing down the path the elect were on until God changed them. The fact that he has saved some from their sins does not imply that he should do so for ANYONE.

 

[RickReads]

Yes, because they are slaves to sin, they WILL not to believe. And they will ALWAYS do so until God regenerates them.

Salvation without believing. Would we really need a Savior if that were true?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Thus God makes it impossible for the non elect to believe, then burns them in the lake of fire forever, for their unbelief.

Thus God does with his own creation as he sees fit, owing none of it anything, showing it his justice, holiness and power, and to the elect his generosity and SO much more, to the praise of his own glory. Where is the right of the self-willed to what the unworthy subjects of his grace are given?

 

[Mark Quayle]

To add insult to injury, God arbitrarily decides most of His creation will burn in Hell by withholding election from them, and He also arbitrarily hates them - per the Romans 9 Calvinist dogma that God loved elect Jacob, but hated non elect Esau.

He hates what and who he hates because it is evil. But why the term, "arbitrarily"? It implies purposelessness. God does nothing without purpose. Calvinism claims no such thing as any arbitrary choice by God. And there is that "withholding" thing again, as though God owes everybody what he chose for some.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Since Jesus said most people will be lost, and only FEW will be saved, that means that the God of Calvinism has arbitrarily decreed that 75% or more of mankind is elected unto damnation, and 25% or less, are of the lucky elect, who won the salvation lottery.

And Calvinists are just fine with that.

Calvinism is an insult to Gods character and nature.

No. Your take on Calvinism is an insult to God's character and nature, and to those who delight in the sovereignty of God. Again, you employ the notion that God "arbitrarily" chooses, i.e. without purpose, at a whim, randomly, when it is not so. God makes each elect person from the beginning, to be exactly that person he predestined him to be --and that specific member of the Body. He did not make anyone else for that "spot".

 

[Mark Quayle]

Salvation without believing. Would we really need a Savior if that were true?

Show me where I implied, (nevermind actually said), that Salvation is without believing.

Regeneration NECESSARILY causes believing, and Salvation. Do you want a sequence of events wherein we can say here he was not, here a split second later, he was, then a split second after that we see him finally believing? Baugh!

What we do know is cause and effect, and necessary resulting evidences of the cause of effect. The Bible gives them to us. And they work impeccably logically.

 

[RickReads]

Show me where I implied, (nevermind actually said), that Salvation is without believing.

Regeneration NECESSARILY causes believing, and Salvation. Do you want a sequence of events wherein we can say here he was not, here a split second later, he was, then a split second after that we see him finally believing? Baugh!

What we do know is cause and effect, and necessary resulting evidences of the cause of effect. The Bible gives them to us. And they work impeccably logically.

Regeneration is salvation, when someone is regenerated they are saved. All I can tell you is what the Bible says.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

 

[RickReads]

No. Your take on Calvinism is an insult to God's character and nature, and to those who delight in the sovereignty of God. Again, you employ the notion that God "arbitrarily" chooses, i.e. without purpose, at a whim, randomly, when it is not so. God makes each elect person from the beginning, to be exactly that person he predestined him to be --and that specific member of the Body. He did not make anyone else for that "spot".

The only people I ever met that believe God "arbitrarily" chooses are Calvinists.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Regeneration is salvation, when someone is regenerated they are saved. All I can tell you is what the Bible says.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

It doesn't say salvation IS regeneration, but for what it is worth, yes, Salvation necessarily accompanies regeneration, as does belief. You want somehow to claim that the Godless belief of the self-willed, who is at enmity with God, who according to scripture cannot please God, and is a slave to sin, is worthy of God's notice and respect? Again. only God can do this. Our belief is a result of God working in us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The only people I ever met that believe God "arbitrarily" chooses are Calvinists.

I never heard of a Calvinist who believes God is arbitrary about anything. It might do you good to look at a dictionary.

 

[RickReads]

It doesn't say salvation IS regeneration, but for what it is worth, yes, Salvation necessarily accompanies regeneration, as does belief. You want somehow to claim that the Godless belief of the self-willed, who is at enmity with God, who according to scripture cannot please God, and is a slave to sin, is worthy of God's notice and respect? Again. only God can do this. Our belief is a result of God working in us.

The Bible says you have to hear about Jesus to believe. So, no there is no belief before hearing the gospel.

You have to believe in order to be regenerated. Regeneration is new birth-circumcision of the heart-baptism of the Holy Spirit. It absolutely is salvation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Bible says you have to hear about Jesus to believe. So, no there is no belief before hearing the gospel.

You have to believe in order to be regenerated. Regeneration is new birth-circumcision of the heart-baptism of the Holy Spirit. It absolutely is salvation.

So you think the faith that comes by hearing is not the result of regeneration? The Gospel is the word (and work) of God, not of man. The Gospel does not save those who don't believe. And yes, what in the world would one believe, who is regenerated apart from the Gospel? All that is obvious! But it doesn't say you have to believe to become regenerated. I agree you have to believe if you are regenerated. It is simple fact. Salvific belief is salvific faith, which is not something you can produce. Only God can do this.

 

[RickReads]

So you think the faith that comes by hearing is not the result of regeneration? The Gospel is the word (and work) of God, not of man. The Gospel does not save those who don't believe. And yes, what in the world would one believe, who is regenerated apart from the Gospel? All that is obvious! But it doesn't say you have to believe to become regenerated. I agree you have to believe if you are regenerated. It is simple fact. Salvific belief is salvific faith, which is not something you can produce. Only God can do this.

The word regeneration only appears one time in Pauls's epistles. Paul has a variety of terms he uses that mean salvation.

You are getting your doctrine confused with scripture. Faith is a gift, regeneration is another gift, they are not the same thing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The word regeneration only appears one time in Pauls's epistles. Paul has a variety of terms he uses that mean salvation.

You are getting your doctrine confused with scripture. Faith is a gift, regeneration is another gift, they are not the same thing.

So you CAN tell me how a person lacking any propensity toward God, lost in sin, a slave to sin, who cannot please God, can of himself have the integrity and knowledge and will and intelligence and desire and power to suddenly out of the blue make a decision that will last for eternity causing the mechanics of salvation to fall into place, a choice which requires all of those things and more? Belief shows up somehow, and then he is regenerated as a result?

You are looking at scripture verses as stand-alone doctrine, and making the rest of scripture fit as necessary.

The God I know didn't ask anyone's permission before predestining them to Salvation, nor does he otherwise kiss the shiny rear end of FreeWill before being permitted to continue with his plan --because that is what you are saying, whether you know it or not.

Now I expect you to wiggle this and wring that, and shake other things into the shape of your container. But your container does not describe the Gospel --the work of God.

Good day to you, sir. We have talked long enough.

 

[RickReads]

So you CAN tell me how a person lacking any propensity toward God, lost in sin, a slave to sin, who cannot please God, can of himself have the integrity and knowledge and will and intelligence and desire and power to suddenly out of the blue make a decision that will last for eternity causing the mechanics of salvation to fall into place, a choice which requires all of those things and more? Belief shows up somehow, and then he is regenerated as a result?

You are looking at scripture verses as stand-alone doctrine, and making the rest of scripture fit as necessary.

The God I know didn't ask anyone's permission before predestining them to Salvation, nor does he otherwise kiss the shiny rear end of FreeWill before being permitted to continue with his plan --because that is what you are saying, whether you know it or not.

Now I expect you to wiggle this and wring that, and shake other things into the shape of your container. But your container does not describe the Gospel --the work of God.

Good day to you, sir. We have talked long enough.

Everything I told you is Biblical and I can easily back it up, you cannot which is why you are getting mad.

 

[RickReads]

I never heard of a Calvinist who believes God is arbitrary about anything. It might do you good to look at a dictionary.

I didn`t say Calvin taught that God is arbitrary. I said I`ve met Calvinists who did teach and believe it.

 

[RickReads]

So you think the faith that comes by hearing is not the result of regeneration? The Gospel is the word (and work) of God, not of man. The Gospel does not save those who don't believe. And yes, what in the world would one believe, who is regenerated apart from the Gospel? All that is obvious! But it doesn't say you have to believe to become regenerated. I agree you have to believe if you are regenerated. It is simple fact. Salvific belief is salvific faith, which is not something you can produce. Only God can do this.

When does man become spiritual in the parable of the sower?

Matthew 13

3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.


Here is a hint. The seed is the gospel not the -> (regeneration = life)

John 5

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The seed/gospel is the method God uses to give his gift of faith.

Romans 10

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Paul`s sequence of events -> Hear,Believe,Call =shall be saved=regeneration

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Why would the owner of the fields pay some workers according to contract for working all day, then pay those who worked only an hour the same total amount? Because he is generous to SOME. (Matthew 20). Why would God say "Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."(Isaiah 6:10) Doesn't that sound like "withholding"?

Once again, you're only looking at half the picture. Why do you think it is all arbitrary when scripture teaches that God wants all people to repent and to be saved and sacrificed Himself for the sins of the whole world and gets angry and punishes people when they refuse to repent? You draw conclusions from isolated verses without taking all of scripture into account. Why?

Does God close people's eyes arbitrarily or for a reason? What does this say:

Matt 13:14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

We have several examples of scripture where God decides to no longer contend with certain people when they have repeatedly refused to repent. Look at what this says. They closed their own spiritual eyes! Otherwise, if they hadn't done that, "they might see with their eyes...and turn" and God "would heal them".

What does the following say?

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.

Once again, God did not arbitrarily give these people over sinful desires. They knew God, His eternal power and divine nature, but they did not glorify Him as God and were not thankful. That was their choice. It had to be their choice or else Paul wouldn't say they had no excuse for their behavior and their unbelief. If they couldn't help but do what they did, then they would have an excuse. Do you understand that? As a result of that rebellion, God gave them over to their wickedness rather than contending with them any longer. God is very patient but He will only take so much.

Here is another example of what I'm talking about:

2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Notice what comes first here. The refusal "to love the truth and so be save". It is because of that "God sends them a powerful delusion". God does not blind people, give them over to their wickedness or send them delusion unless they first repeatedly, stubbornly refuse to accept His offer of salvation. I have to say again, you always only see half of the big picture. Dig deeper!

In keeping with your tone, I say, read it again. 1 Timothy 2 says "...there is ONE God and ONE Mediator between God and man.." I.e. THERE IS NO OTHER. All people are to be preached to, and all are required to repent. And yes, even those whose will is corrupt and are unable to repent. If they do not repent, they are already condemned.

No, I do not accept your take on 1 Timothy 2:3. I do believe what it says, but it does not say what you take it to mean. Are you willing to admit that God can do as he says and not how you take it to mean? Are you willing to admit that God can command absolutely everyone to repent, yet not provide them means out of their self-willed predicament? Are not the vessels created for destruction, his to do with as he pleases? (Romans 9)

No, I don't accept your interpretation of those clear passages at all. You're trying to turn something clearly written "God wants all people to be saved" and making it into a convoluted mess.

Here is yet another example of you not digging deep enough to find the truth. You referenced Romans 9.

Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

I accept what this says wholeheartedly. It's completely up to God who He will have mercy on. Amen. So, does scripture say anything about who He has mercy on or is it arbitrary? It tells us.

Romans 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

All of us are sinners (Rom 3:23). God does not keep that from happening, obviously. Why? Because He wants to have mercy on all people. That is what a God of love does. If God is love (1 John 4:8) then why would He only want to have mercy on some people and only want some people to be saved and only cause some people to repent and believe? That makes no sense.

Will you acknowledge that God should gain no pleasure from the death of the wicked, yet relegate them to destruction?

I do not acknowledge that He would relegate them to destruction for no reason. The reason He relegates them to destruction is because of their willful choice to rebel against Him. If they only do what God created them to do then why would God be bothered by their deaths and why does it say He'd rather that they turn from their wickedness?

He does this for his own purposes --and his own glory (Romans 9 again --Read it!).

I read Romans 9! Did you read Romans 11? Stop drawing conclusions from isolated passages without taking all of scripture into account. God wants to have mercy on all people. It's not arbitrary.

Of course he gains no pleasure from destruction! That proves nothing about to whom he gives his particular mercy.

Tell me why you think He doesn't gain pleasure from it? Isn't it what He wants in your view?

"Chance of being saved"? Why do you say "chance"? Do you mean, "ability"? Chance is a fiction. You would leave God's choice of members comprising the PERFECT Bride of Christ to "CHANCE"? Don't you ever even think of these things? Chance is a logical fiction. Nothing can happen by chance. God directs all things, if no other way, logically by the fact that he is First Cause.

Have you never read Matthew 22:1-14? It's all about the gospel first being preached to the Jews and salvation being offered to them and then it gets offered to the Gentiles. How does your understanding of salvation line up with a parable regarding an invitation to a wedding banquet? The reason that some of the guests don't attend isn't because God didn't want them to, but rather because "they refused to come" (Matt 22:3).

By the way, Ezekiel 18:23 is not written about the elect, the Church, but of the nation of Israel. He is referring to physical death, punishment for disobedience to the law. But even if the principle transfers to the ultimately lost, that he wishes it did not have to be so, remember he also did not delight in having to die, yet the purposes of God were more important than his suffering. The purposes of God are even more important than the lives of the lost.

You're not making any sense here. He clearly said He has no pleasure in their death. Why not? If that was His plan for them rather than saving them then why does it say He wanted them to turn from their ways and live instead?

"Why would God need to be patient while waiting for the elect to repent if their repentance is entirely up to Him?" Their lack of repentence is not entirely up to him --they WILL NOT to repent; but their ABILITY to repent, their escape from slavery to self-willed sin --that is up to him. TAKE NOTE and don't forget it on your next condescending answer: THEY WILL TO REBEL AGAINST HIM. By no means do I deny THEY DO CHOOSE to do wrong. BUT, if God has chosen them (the Elect), he will sooner or later give them the Spirit of God, transforming them from slavery to sin to slavery to Christ, enabling them to repent --so yes, it is up to them at that point, and they indeed will repent --all in good time.

You're all over the map here. Can't you just acknowledge that their repentance is entirely up to God? Do you believe it has anything to do with their own free will to choose to repent or not? No, you don't. It's entirely up to God in your view. Therefore, the idea that God uses patience to wait for people to repent makes no sense if your view that repentance is entirely up to God's will was true.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Mark Quayle]

Once again, you're only looking at half the picture. Why do you think it is all arbitrary

I don't think it is arbitrary at all. God does everything with purpose.