Halloween and "cultural appropriation".

muichimotsu

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Thats so true.

But....once things get into the global culture, like with ninjas, there's kind of no going back.

Maybe Japan should close all its "maid cafes" which are based on this sexy French maid stereotype.....?
The word is Japanese in origin, so it's not like it can be severed from that cultural context

Japan isn't arguably doing more than one particular stereotype of maids, but the intent is celebration and elevates it, rather than arguably a tokenizing like a Halloween costume. You don't really wear it everywhere, cosplay is fairly restricted in Japan, unlike in America where you could conceivably walk around in cosplay, especially in proximity to a convention and no one would really care.

It is still, to my knowledge, regarded like a uniform for those who do it as a job, but can be fetishized, like nurse outfits, police officer outfits, etc. The polysemous nature of it in Japanese culture, or cultures in general, is not the same as the unimaginative idea that it's fine to anything that you regard as exotic and turn it into a commodity or trivialize it like Halloween arguably does in the practice, especially the modern ideas of competition or attention-grabbing attitudes.
 
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muichimotsu

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The original Black Panthers were not a racist organization. The New Black Panthers, on the other hand...
They co-opted the name, even the original Black Panthers despise how they've done that, like how black Christians regard Black Hebrew Israelites as equally racist and divisive.
 
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muichimotsu

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I think I do. I already stated I can sympathize with a few items on that list. I just realize you need to pick your battles. The human mind will only tolerate so much political correctness until it tunes out.

As if it's damaging to the human mind to be conscientious or considerate: excess is one thing, but the idea that political correctness is somehow more than that understanding that a majority culture can enable and spread ignorance and misinformation that marginalizes and damages a minority group is the very satire that the word started as



Not sure what you mean by this. People have their own lives to worry about. There comes a point where a person is not going to expend a certain amount of energy to cradle every perceived slight against a minority culture. You may be more into delving into the feelings of other cultures, but not everyone is going to share your level of enthusiasm for that particular hobby. Progress is good, but you need to be realistic about it or else you risk turning others away.

I don't do this most of the time: and progress is not something that is going to stop because fringe subcultures want to go back to the "good old days": if they can't even adjust at all, it's their loss and they will be rightly left in the trash heap of history and society. They choose to remain willfully ignorant, there's only so much one can do and that's why I don't always waste my energy doing it constantly


We also don't have to defer to the most easily offended either. The majority of humans (minority or majority) are not like that

The majority doesn't follow to being right by virtue of that, ignorance is often the result of the lowest common denominator encouraging that kind of anti intellectual drivel and masquerade it as individualism instead of just outright nonsense that is to society's detriment.

And offense is partly subjective, that doesn't mean people's experiences are always going to reflect some oversensitive disposition, but legitimate trauma or bad aspects: giving people some benefit of the doubt in this is the honest and humble method, I'd argue
 
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muichimotsu

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I don't have time for that. I like what I like. I use avatars of different ethnicities all the time. If I want to be Cher for Halloween I will. And look darned good too! :D

Yours in His Service,

~Bella
Cher isn't a culture, she's a person and in the public eye: she can't really complain anymore than Richard Simmons when someone has a costume for him. And I doubt virtually anyone would be offended at either, myself included.
 
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Aldebaran

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Then you don't realize the damage stereotypes do. Even well meaning people fall prey to them instead of having honest social interactions with as little of stereotypes coloring them as possible. When we just put people into boxes it makes social interactions damaging in that we can't deign the idea that someone breaks the mold.

Not all stereotypes are equal either, because you're talking about regional ones, which can have issues, but racial stereotypes run FAR deeper and arguably aren't easily shifted by time, especially in a culture that still favors whites disproportionately

People of minority races often create the stereotypes they are known by. If they don't like those stereotypes they create of themselves after a time, they should have a talk with those who continue to live by and perpetuate them. The violent black man, for example, with the gold chains and Air Jordans and pants that are 5 sizes too big and need to be held up so they don't end up around the ankles, etc.
Dressing like that and then be on scene to score a new TV at Walmart when a riot breaks out only helps perpetuate their own stereotype--the one they themselves created.
 
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Aldebaran

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Someone identifying as straight doesn't mean it was exclusively so, sometimes it can be purely a matter of feeling like you must conform, an internalized hatred of yourself if you don't fit with what your parents approve of, that you're a failure if you can't just stop being gay (when they cannot). All your examples bring up is the validity of sexuality as a spectrum, exclusive homosexuality a qualification that is probably much more rare versus people with bisexual, polysexual or pansexual tendencies. Look it up, the more you know!

You make lots of assumptions here to help justify your narrative.
 
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Aldebaran

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As a white person, methinks you don't appear to even consider that them being hurt by it might be a legitimate experience even if YOU don't see it. That's the fundamental problem that reflects white privilege, especially in American society that seems more often to pay lipservice to diversity while encouraging pure assimilation into "white" culture

The majority is not always how we determine things to be in poor taste, especially if the majority is outright ignorant and stuck in the idea that freedom is more important than liberty and discretion

People should be able to have their feelings hurt while also possessing a spine (or a pair of something else) to absorb it rather than whine to society about it. Blacks as a political entity have been using their hurt feelings for quite some time to try getting their way. It makes them look pathetic, as if strength comes from getting your feelings hurt, and power comes from claiming victimhood.
 
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muichimotsu

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People of minority races often create the stereotypes they are known by. If they don't like those stereotypes they create of themselves after a time, they should have a talk with those who continue to live by and perpetuate them. The violent black man, for example, with the gold chains and Air Jordans and pants that are 5 sizes too big and need to be held up so they don't end up around the ankles, etc.
Dressing like that and then be on scene to score a new TV at Walmart when a riot breaks out only helps perpetuate their own stereotype--the one they themselves created.
People are not stereotypes, behaviors are stereotyped and by a majority, even if it is reinforced by people with internalized racism, saying that black people have to fit one box or they're dishonoring or smearing the race somehow

You're not comprehending at all, those expressions and style of dress are not indicative of black people as a whole, one could argue it's them trying to conform to a culture because they don't feel like they have any real cultural heritage they're aware of. And that wouldn't be a problem if black people were given more opportunity in school to learn about more than mostly white people. Or is that too inconvenient for you to acknowledge?
 
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muichimotsu

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People should be able to have their feelings hurt while also possessing a spine (or a pair of something else) to absorb it rather than whine to society about it. Blacks as a political entity have been using their hurt feelings for quite some time to try getting their way. It makes them look pathetic, as if strength comes from getting your feelings hurt, and power comes from claiming victimhood.
Society is partly responsible, to say otherwise is naive and idealistic: people don't exist in a vacuum, society encourages the stereotypes and terrible behavior that people continue on, especially if the majority ignorantly don't see the harm because they aren't affected by it themselves and then suggest that other people are too "sensitive" without any consideration that maybe their complaints have validity.

Don't you dare try to generalize like this, that only increases the divide instead of trying to bridge it. And it also shows how entitled you are in being white, not remotely understanding black peoples' struggles even to this day, let alone 60 years ago.

When you dismiss the hurt feelings of people as overreaction instead of even considering that your perspective is so entitled you've become numb to any genuine empathy towards someone's suffering in a society that marginalizes them, it only shows more of how poisoned you've become by your status as a white person in a society that refuses to admit there's a problem and just put a band aid on a festering wound to "treat" it
 
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muichimotsu

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You make lots of assumptions here to help justify your narrative.
Point them out, assertions on your end don't vindicate whatever position you hold, criticize my argument instead of dismissing it outright. Or can't you defend your worldview?

Just because you think it's self evident doesn't mean everyone fits into the lowest common denominator sheep mentality that buys into it because that's how it's always been (when it really hasn't, not entirely)
 
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Ken-1122

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Now we're being told that dressing up in your favorite Halloween custume may offend someone.

PSA: These 10 Halloween “Costumes” Will Always Be Offensive

"So what does that look like? What counts as cultural appropriation? According to Marie Claire, the simple answer to that is you shouldn't dress up as a marginalized culture that isn't your own,
To be marginalized it to be treated as insignificant. A good argument can be made that there are no marginalized cultures in The US, that all cultures are important. If that is the case, then you can dress up as anyone you want to; right?
 
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muichimotsu

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To be marginalized it to be treated as insignificant. A good argument can be made that there are no marginalized cultures in The US, that all cultures are important. If that is the case, then you can dress up as anyone you want to; right?
Paying lipservice to cultural diversity while still primarily focusing on white people for media, education, etc, suggests that the idea of diversity is only as important as the dominant racial hegemony dictates it to be: that is, white people will acknowledge some minorities, but only insofar as they consider that, yeah, this person is well known enough and can be used to promote an idea of civil rights.

But at the same time, we still have plenty of examples and concerns in regards to societal and cultural biases towards white people over other minorities, even merely in social interactions or stereotyping, as well as some generic panacea of hard work being the solution to societal ills that suggest inequality of opportunity for blacks in contrast to white people (as opposed to equality of outcome, which is fundamentally unrealistic to any reasonable solution)
 
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Ken-1122

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Paying lipservice to cultural diversity while still primarily focusing on white people for media, education, etc, suggests that the idea of diversity is only as important as the dominant racial hegemony dictates it to be:
Speak for yourself on that one, I don't just focus on white people for media, education, etc. I recognize all people in those areas; and the controlling culture of this country has determined diversity is important.
that is, white people will acknowledge some minorities, but only insofar as they consider that, yeah, this person is well known enough and can be used to promote an idea of civil rights.
Who are these white people you speak of? Do you think this way? Are you one of them?
But at the same time, we still have plenty of examples and concerns in regards to societal and cultural biases towards white people over other minorities, even merely in social interactions or stereotyping, as well as some generic panacea of hard work being the solution to societal ills that suggest inequality of opportunity for blacks in contrast to white people (as opposed to equality of outcome, which is fundamentally unrealistic to any reasonable solution)
Racism and bigotry kinda goes both ways. There are areas where there are disadvantages for being black, but there are other areas where there are advantages.
 
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muichimotsu

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Speak for yourself on that one, I don't just focus on white people for media, education, etc. I recognize all people in those areas; and the controlling culture of this country has determined diversity is important.

Who are these white people you speak of? Do you think this way? Are you one of them?

Racism and bigotry kinda goes both ways. There are areas where there are disadvantages for being black, but there are other areas where there are advantages.
The problem is as a white person, one has the privilege to change it up, while people of color don't have that option, white people are generally still given more presence, that's the problem.

I'm talking about in a general sense: individual racism is not what I'm accusing anyone of, because the issue here is marginalization, not prejudice against someone that is explicit and based in ignorance, but biases that are more derived from societal norms

The advantages or disadvantages are not necessarily separate from the dominant culture railroading people of color into certain areas (black people as athletes comes to mind as one notion of success I feel like you'd bring up, but that's not realistic long term, nor is it really equitable in the sense that not all black people will have that aptitude in the first place. It's like saying women should just deal with the fact that there are less of them in STEM fields when part of it is how they're discouraged by culture to not pursue that, as if they're less feminine or such)
 
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SkyWriting

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Now we're being told that dressing up in your favorite Halloween costume may offend someone.

I'm very pleased that Covid rules have outlawed the mass travel of rabid masses into foreign neighborhoods seeking candy.
https%3A%2F%2Fundeadwalking.com%2Ffiles%2F2016%2F06%2Fthe-walking-dead-midseason-6-finale-walkers-161067.jpg
 
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Ken-1122

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The problem is as a white person, one has the privilege to change it up, while people of color don't have that option,
What’s preventing us from having this option?
white people are generally still given more presence, that's the problem.
Presence in what way?
I'm talking about in a general sense: individual racism is not what I'm accusing anyone of, because the issue here is marginalization, not prejudice against someone that is explicit and based in ignorance, but biases that are more derived from societal norms
So in what way am I (as a black man) marginalized that you are not?
advantages or disadvantages are not necessarily separate from the dominant culture railroading people of color into certain areas (black people as athletes comes to mind as one notion of success I feel like you'd bring up, but that's not realistic long term, nor is it really equitable in the sense that not all black people will have that aptitude in the first place. It's like saying women should just deal with the fact that there are less of them in STEM fields when part of it is how they're discouraged by culture to not pursue that, as if they're less feminine or such)
Why would you assume I would pick athletics? Ever heard of the National Black Contractors Association (NBCA)? National Black Contractors Association
If you are black and you put forth the effort to become a construction contractor, this organization will help you out
What about the National Black Nurses association? NBNA.org Or the National black physicians?
Home
Or the Black Business Association for those who want to start their own business? Home
Aren’t these advantages if you are black? I don't see white people with anything like that
 
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muichimotsu

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What’s preventing us from having this option?

"Us" as in people of color? The lack of equity in representation in the first place. It's getting better, but it's still skewed a lot towards white people

Presence in what way?

In being the focus of virtually anything

So in what way am I (as a black man) marginalized that you are not?

Oh, let me count the ways.

Being treated like you need more cops to deal with if you're doing the exact same crime a white guy is, pretty sure we have examples of this.

Not being given remotely the same level of understanding about your race's history in America when we're talking about American history in school. Maybe it's gotten "better", but I'm skeptical that we aren't still just talking as white people about, "Yeah, MLK Jr, Rosa Parks and Harriet Tubman, that's all you need, no other black people are worth our time to discuss"

The disregard by people gentrifying areas to minority communities and the problems they suffer

How the media seems to not remotely want to cover the disproportionate death rates and complications with this present novel coronavirus strain on the black community, because of a number of factors, like availability of healthcare, but also just not being understood in how the symptoms can differ wildly with black people, which leads to the complications and deaths, supposedly.

In short, white people are given more visibility in general in society and I fully acknowledge that, in pretty much anything I'm a fan of. Like in Blood of Zeus, set in ancient Greek areas, there's one black guy in the entire series, and he is named, but he's also relegated to what is arguably a stereotype of being a gladiator fighter that's really strong.


Why would you assume I would pick athletics? Ever heard of the National Black Contractors Association (NBCA)? National Black Contractors Association
If you are black and you put forth the effort to become a construction contractor, this organization will help you out
What about the National Black Nurses association? NBNA.org Or the National black physicians?
Home
Or the Black Business Association for those who want to start their own business? Home
Aren’t these advantages if you are black? I don't see white people with anything like that

The fact that white people never needed it is the fundamental problem you're missing: black people had to fight to get this kind of structure in place when it would've just behooved white people to consider: "Hey maybe we should treat black people the same as us...nah, that'd be too hard, let's just maintain the status quo and let them think they're equal,"

It's the same kind of segregationist mindset and in a way, black people are arguably hamstringing themselves and showing the marginalization they suffer because they have to collaborate amongst themselves to get anything that benefits them rather than the white privileged society actually changing the institutional biases that apparently don't give black people the same treatment or regard even if they have the same qualifications.

We have a black guy that paints for us, but I wouldn't be shocked if, esp. since he's in the South, he's passed over for painting jobs in favor of a white guy, not because they think he's bad at it, esp. with people that hire him saying he does a good job, but because people would prefer their own race more often, unfortunately.

It's like you've been indoctrinated to only regard some words as some kind of dog whistle for "liberal" ideas. Black pride is not black supremacy, for example, it's the same as gay pride, asserting that you have dignity in a society that still will try to dismiss your problems or say you're playing the victim when they wouldn't understand as a privileged person that gets preferential treatment or simply has societal bias in their favor.
 
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Ken-1122

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"Us" as in people of color?
People of black color. Believe it or not; EVERYBODY is a person of color. Yeah I said it; white is just as much of a color as black, brown, or anything else. So let’s quit pretending that it is not.
The lack of equity in representation in the first place. It's getting better, but it's still skewed a lot towards white people

Equity in representation? What does that mean? Are you talking about political representation? Because Black people are if anything over represented in that area. According to the National Black Caucus, they represent 25% of the US population even though black people (population wise) only represent half of that amount. No other race in the history of this country has had that level of over representation; not even white people.

Congressional Black Caucus
In being the focus of virtually anything
There are more white people than anyone else in this country, and it’s not like all white people are the focus of “virtually anything” it is the rich, the athletes, actors, politicians, and others who maintain the spotlight, it’s not like poor and middle income white people (the vast majority of em) get this kind of focus.
Oh, let me count the ways.

Being treated like you need more cops to deal with if you're doing the exact same crime a white guy is, pretty sure we have examples of this.
People who live in high crime neighborhoods get this type of treatment over people living in low crime neighborhoods. That’s more of a neighborhood thing, not all black people live in high crime neighborhoods.
Not being given remotely the same level of understanding about your race's history in America when we're talking about American history in school. Maybe it's gotten "better", but I'm skeptical that we aren't still just talking as white people about, "Yeah, MLK Jr, Rosa Parks and Harriet Tubman, that's all you need, no other black people are worth our time to discuss"
Due to racist policies, Black people were restricted from being a part of much of this Nations history in the past; but yeah things have gotten better now. But this does not marginalize ME in any way today. I am a product of my past; not a prisoner of it.
The disregard by people gentrifying areas to minority communities and the problems they suffer
I have never understood people who call cleaning up, improving, decreasing the crime rate while simultaneously increasing the value of a neighborhood (gentrifying) a bad thing? One thing you need to realize; not all black people are renters, many of us own our own houses and of those who own their own houses, a disproportionate number of us own houses in older urban neighborhoods. When that neighborhood becomes gentrified, those black people invested in that neighborhood make a killing! Why is this a bad thing? Yeah rent goes up but that’s because they choose to raise rent; nobody is forcing them to do this! Make no mistake; gentrification has put more money in the hands of black people than any government program; I call that a good thing.
How the media seems to not remotely want to cover the disproportionate death rates and complications with this present novel coronavirus strain on the black community,
Actually that is covered by the media; how much more coverage do you want? And lets face it; the coronavirus is a behavioral thing; its not like we've got racist germs out there looking for black people to infect!
because of a number of factors, like availability of healthcare, but also just not being understood in how the symptoms can differ wildly with black people, which leads to the complications and deaths, supposedly.
Health care is a financial thing; not a marginalized thing. And how do the symptoms of the coronavirus effect black people differently than whites? This is news to me.
In short, white people are given more visibility in general in society and I fully acknowledge that, in pretty much anything I'm a fan of. Like in Blood of Zeus, set in ancient Greek areas, there's one black guy in the entire series, and he is named, but he's also relegated to what is arguably a stereotype of being a gladiator fighter that's really strong.
I’m not familiar with everything you might be a fan of, but I can list a lot of areas where black people are given more visibility and white people less visibility in areas I might be a fan of; it’s all a matter of where you choose to look
The fact that white people never needed it is the fundamental problem you're missing:
Black people don't need it either! An argument can be made that there were more black business in the past, and more black people fighting for financial success when racism was much more prevalent and before these programs were in place than there are now. It's like the more you guys try to save us, the worse things seem to get! Black people don’t need white people to save us, just get out of our way and allow us to save ourselves!
black people had to fight to get this kind of structure in place when it would've just behooved white people to consider: "Hey maybe we should treat black people the same as us...nah, that'd be too hard, let's just maintain the status quo and let them think they're equal,"
Not all white people think that way, and the fact that these structures are in place is still an example of privileges black people have that white people do not.
It's the same kind of segregationist mindset and in a way, black people are arguably hamstringing themselves and showing the marginalization they suffer because they have to collaborate amongst themselves to get anything that benefits them rather than the white privileged society actually changing the institutional biases that apparently don't give black people the same treatment or regard even if they have the same qualifications.

We have a black guy that paints for us, but I wouldn't be shocked if, esp. since he's in the South, he's passed over for painting jobs in favor of a white guy, not because they think he's bad at it, esp. with people that hire him saying he does a good job, but because people would prefer their own race more often, unfortunately.
I have no doubt there are many areas where there are disadvantages for being black, but there are other areas where there are advantages. To pretend as if there are only disadvantages of being black, and only advantage of being white requires you to only look at half the picture.
It's like you've been indoctrinated to only regard some words as some kind of dog whistle for "liberal" ideas. Black pride is not black supremacy, for example,
Actually it pretty much IS a dog whistle for black supremacy. Pride is something you have within; you don’t need to go telling everybody about it. Nearly every area I see black pride advertised, is usually an area that attracts black supremacist regardless of how innocent the original intention was. This shouldn’t be surprising to you, just like anywhere you see white pride advertised, that usually attracts white supremacists, why would you assume black people would be exempt from this type of behavior?
 
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muichimotsu

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People of black color. Believe it or not; EVERYBODY is a person of color. Yeah I said it; white is just as much of a color as black, brown, or anything else. So let’s quit pretending that it is not.

The problem is the white privileged status, white as a color is irrelevant when they get the lion's share of everything versus the minorities they still want to act as if they are getting "too much"
Equity in representation? What does that mean? Are you talking about political representation? Because Black people are if anything over represented in that area. According to the National Black Caucus, they represent 25% of the US population even though black people (population wise) only represent half of that amount. No other race in the history of this country has had that level of over representation; not even white people.
I was referring to a broader notion, political representation can improve, but the problem is still with those numbers, you're ignoring that white people are still the decided majority. By all means, skew the numbers to suggest black people are more represented because of having 25% of total versus their population total, but I feel like per capita, we're still talking white people would probably have 50% or more representation politically and that's reflected in no small part with the 4 major parties of note, where I think at best, we have 2 people of color (in terms of minority races, being pedantic isn't helping, because it glosses over how white is seen as the "default") among all the candidates and they're both vice presidential candidates, everyone else white.


There are more white people than anyone else in this country, and it’s not like all white people are the focus of “virtually anything” it is the rich, the athletes, actors, politicians, and others who maintain the spotlight, it’s not like poor and middle income white people (the vast majority of em) get this kind of focus.

And that's the problem: they are the people we're expected to aspire to be, but they're majority white. How is that okay in terms of a system that still is biased towards white people even if some people of color manage some notoriety? They're still forgettable by comparison

People who live in high crime neighborhoods get this type of treatment over people living in low crime neighborhoods. That’s more of a neighborhood thing, not all black people live in high crime neighborhoods.

Due to racist policies, Black people were restricted from being a part of much of this Nations history in the past; but yeah things have gotten better now. But this does not marginalize ME in any way today. I am a product of my past; not a prisoner of it.

The problem is low crime neighborhoods would, I'm almost sure, be majority white, so of course they're going to be less prone to the issue of police brutality which has disproportionate effects on black people. I don't recall the statistics exactly, but it works ironically in a similar fashion to your example of the Black Caucus, a small portion of the population with a high percentage of arrests and even deaths by police

"Better" is relative to perspective and your success is almost set up by white people to still have limits. It may not be as obvious, but there's not only the personal and institutional racism as a distinction, but explicit and implicit as well, the latter more biases that are almost unconscious, socially conditioned by the ideas we have about black people.

And I never claimed you were in the same situation as black people from 50 years ago, but it doesn't mean you're still not being held back by a society that treats you like an afterthought, even if it isn't malicious in nature, per Hanlon's razor: it can just be ignorance and privilege


I have never understood people who call cleaning up, improving, decreasing the crime rate while simultaneously increasing the value of a neighborhood (gentrifying) a bad thing? One thing you need to realize; not all black people are renters, many of us own our own houses and of those who own their own houses, a disproportionate number of us own houses in older urban neighborhoods. When that neighborhood becomes gentrified, those black people invested in that neighborhood make a killing! Why is this a bad thing? Yeah rent goes up but that’s because they choose to raise rent; nobody is forcing them to do this! Make no mistake; gentrification has put more money in the hands of black people than any government program; I call that a good thing.

I never claimed all black people were renters

The free market forces them to do this, I'm pretty sure that's one of the fundamental problems in gentrificaiton, it disproportionately creates problems for those people who aren't as affluent and are able to live in that neighborhood because it isn't suffering from that kind of inflation and other issues that can affect the economy in ways that seem primarily based on demographics and some fear of the neighborhood being bad because of black people moving in or other minorities.

Can't speak to the representation in my neck of the woods, or even my neighborhood, but I'd bet you dollars to donuts I can barely find 10 houses out of 200 with people of color in them, and I could even be generous and include mixed race children that were adopted (one of my cousins adopted non white kids, iirc, she has a big heart like that, though she also married early in life and I believe divorced so...major daddy issues that aren't really germane, just a thought)

And renting is not necessarily just something people can get past, because job advancement or availability, plus pay scaling is not always going to work for everyone. That's especially the case in areas where you have this kind of economic destabilization or such and interest rates or rent go up arbitrarily or based on some factors, so that of course the affluent don't suffer, they just step over the impoverished or exploit them by the idea that they should be "grateful" they have anything. Some of the problems are class based, the haves over the have-nots, but intersectionally, these issues disproportionately affect black people as I understand it, because they're stuck in those situations even IF they work to get out of it, in no small part because America's economy is so biased to people who already have versus those who lack.

Actually that is covered by the media; how much more coverage do you want? And lets face it; the coronavirus is a behavioral thing; its not like we've got racist germs out there looking for black people to infect!

Health care is a financial thing; not a marginalized thing. And how do the symptoms of the coronavirus effect black people differently than whites? This is news to me.

Any viral infection has a behavioral factor, but I'm talking about the symptoms themselves and how black people don't manifest them the same way

Marginalization occurs financially too, you're seemingly taking such a simplistic view you'd dismiss anything because you want to have this feeling you're already equal to white people when, no, the problem is a society that still treats you like you just need to work harder to be on white people's level

I may have misspoke on the symptoms, though those will vary by people regardless of skin color anyway because of the novel nature of this. But with black people, from one study, supposedly dying from this disease TWICE as much as white people, it shows that there are issues institutionally that are putting black people at more risk to not only contract it, but also not get the same kind of care or access that white people would have.

I’m not familiar with everything you might be a fan of, but I can list a lot of areas where black people are given more visibility and white people less visibility in areas I might be a fan of; it’s all a matter of where you choose to look

I try to balance between Western and Eastern stuff, the latter especially bad about it, but that's more due to how little Asian cultures have really striven to understand or have interactions with many black people.

The West has no excuse, black people have been important and a demographic that isn't just minor in Western countries, even America. The examples you can give are potentially just a reflection of how society is unconsciously skewing and directing black people to those areas, athletics just one example, since I've read a study suggesting part of the black community's struggle in dealing with this pandemic is because they're more commonly in service industries where they're at risk of contracting it.

Black people don't need it either! An argument can be made that there were more black business in the past, and more black people fighting for financial success when racism was much more prevalent and before these programs were in place than there are now. It's like the more you guys try to save us, the worse things seem to get! Black people don’t need white people to save us, just get out of our way and allow us to save ourselves!

I didn't claim every effort was perfect and that's in part because of systemic racism being a different factor that people's ignorance from misinformation back in the 20th century about blacks somehow being biologically inferior or even intellectually inferior, which have long been debunked and rejected. Now the issue is how institutions still have societal biases that aren't based on bad information, but bad stereotypes and the like.

When the problems are stacked against black people on multiple levels, some of which white people struggle with as well, like the shrinking middle class in particular, asking for assistance is not a sign of weakness or complacency, you're trying to overcompensate with this idea that somehow you don't need anyone's help and then paint white people as if we're being malicious instead of ignorant: again, Hanlon's razor is so applicable in these tense times, I've found

Not all white people think that way, and the fact that these structures are in place is still an example of privileges black people have that white people do not.

The structures are something that were given as a concession, arguably, white people not wanting to seem too racist, but also able to "keep black people under control" effectively, because they only have those groups that really can help them, while the other groups don't care.

I have no doubt there are many areas where there are disadvantages for being black, but there are other areas where there are advantages. To pretend as if there are only disadvantages of being black, and only advantage of being white requires you to only look at half the picture.

The advantages are not advantages in the sense that there is a societal bias that is positive, because it could still very much be that kind of treatment based on your race, which is the fundamental crux of the problem: you shouldn't be treated differently based on your race unless it is relevant, which is not something that should be as prevalent in various contexts as it still is
Actually it pretty much IS a dog whistle for black supremacy. Pride is something you have within; you don’t need to go telling everybody about it. Nearly every area I see black pride advertised, is usually an area that attracts black supremacist regardless of how innocent the original intention was. This shouldn’t be surprising to you, just like anywhere you see white pride advertised, that usually attracts white supremacists, why would you assume black people would be exempt from this type of behavior?

Again, you're oversimplifying: pride as internal is not excluded from asserting yourself against those who will dismiss you. You think gay people were just trying to be jerks with gay pride? No, they were being stepped over by the majority culture that treated them as if they weren't important.

The incidental attraction is not the same as it being intended that way: it's the same problem you're forgetting: polysemous words and extremists ignoring that. Pride has multiple meanings and you're focusing on the one meaning arrogance and such rather than self respect against a culture that pushes you down

White pride is explicitly a dog whistle because white pride is not a thing in the sense of pride as it applies to minorities, we never struggled in that way, we were given the benefit of the doubt as white people.

As the majority culture, white pride in some white culture is nonexistent; there are ethnicities that have cultural identities, but the whiteness is distinct because as a racial group, we rarely had the struggles blacks have had under white colonial influences (to say nothing of Hispanics, Native people, etc)
 
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The problem is the white privileged status, white as a color is irrelevant
White’s aren’t the only ones with privileged status. An argument can be made that all color is irrelevant. But that doesn’t stop people from using the term.
when they get the lion's share of everything versus the minorities they still want to act as if they are getting "too much"
Are you claiming most white people think this way? Do you make that assumption because you're white and you think this way?
And that's the problem: they are the people we're expected to aspire to be, but they're majority white. How is that okay in terms of a system that still is biased towards white people even if some people of color manage some notoriety? They're still forgettable by comparison
Where did you get the impression that we as Americans are supposed to aspire to be professional athletes, Politicians and movie stars? And let’s face it; though not the majority, black people are not under represented in those areas in proportion to our population.
The problem is low crime neighborhoods would, I'm almost sure, be majority white, so of course they're going to be less prone to the issue of police brutality which has disproportionate effects on black people.
My point is, anybody who lives in a high crime neighborhood gets bad treatment from the police, anybody who lives in a low crime neighborhood gets better treatment by the police regardless of skin color.
And I never claimed you were in the same situation as black people from 50 years ago, but it doesn't mean you're still not being held back by a society that treats you like an afterthought,
Yes it does! Society no more treats me as an afterthought than they treat you as one.
I never claimed all black people were renters

The free market forces them to do this, I'm pretty sure that's one of the fundamental problems in gentrificaiton, it disproportionately creates problems for those people who aren't as affluent and are able to live in that neighborhood because it isn't suffering from that kind of inflation and other issues that can affect the economy in ways that seem primarily based on demographics and some fear of the neighborhood being bad because of black people moving in or other minorities.

Can't speak to the representation in my neck of the woods, or even my neighborhood, but I'd bet you dollars to donuts I can barely find 10 houses out of 200 with people of color in them, and I could even be generous and include mixed race children that were adopted (one of my cousins adopted non white kids, iirc, she has a big heart like that, though she also married early in life and I believe divorced so...major daddy issues that aren't really germane, just a thought)

And renting is not necessarily just something people can get past, because job advancement or availability, plus pay scaling is not always going to work for everyone. That's especially the case in areas where you have this kind of economic destabilization or such and interest rates or rent go up arbitrarily or based on some factors, so that of course the affluent don't suffer, they just step over the impoverished or exploit them by the idea that they should be "grateful" they have anything. Some of the problems are class based, the haves over the have-nots, but intersectionally, these issues disproportionately affect black people as I understand it, because they're stuck in those situations even IF they work to get out of it, in no small part because America's economy is so biased to people who already have versus those who lack.
A black person with a house worth $200K will sell it during gentrification for $300K will move to better neighborhood with his $300K because his previous house will be torn down and replaced with one for $700K which is outside of his price range. But still; the black person is much better off due to gentrification than he would have been without it.
Any viral infection has a behavioral factor, but I'm talking about the symptoms themselves and how black people don't manifest them the same way
Can you give an example of this actually happening?
Marginalization occurs financially too, you're seemingly taking such a simplistic view you'd dismiss anything because you want to have this feeling you're already equal to white people when, no, the problem is a society that still treats you like you just need to work harder to be on white people's level
Are you under the impression that American society places you as a white man is above me simply because I am black? Because I am a part of American society, and I don’t think this way. So my question is, who are these people you are talking about?
I may have misspoke on the symptoms, though those will vary by people regardless of skin color anyway because of the novel nature of this. But with black people, from one study, supposedly dying from this disease TWICE as much as white people, it shows that there are issues institutionally that are putting black people at more risk to not only contract it, but also not get the same kind of care or access that white people would have.
Care to give an example of this?
I will respond to the rest later
 
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