Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

[Dave L]

Eph. 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I like this snippet from scripture. Later in 2:8-10 there is another good place to look.

It would be best to seek scripture that was addressed to us today. Jesus himself said while he was in the "flesh" that he came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Later when they rejected him Paul presented a ministry for everyone on equal terms.

“So I am willing to endure anything if it will bring salvation and eternal glory in Christ Jesus to those God has chosen.” 2 Timothy 2:10 (NLT)

 

[Dave L]

I am not sure what you asked in your question.Can you amplify your question somewhat?

It's simple. "whosoever believes has eternal life". Is this a trait of the saved? Or is it a work of the flesh people must choose to act out in an attempt to earn salvation?

 

[Dave L]

I have understood salvation means you are saved from the judgment that would come because of sin.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

And people are saved because God has declared through Jesus sins forgiven. Now, after person hears this message, it would be wise to reject sin, because eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

If you after forgiveness continue in sin, the forgiveness was not useful.

Salvation (the new birth) changes you into a person who cannot habitually live in sin.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin: for his seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” 1 John 3:9–10 (NCPB)

 

[coronawatching]

Jesus said; “Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God’s anger stays on them.” John 3:36 (NCV)

Eternal life is without beginning or end, just as God is eternal. This would mean whom he regenerates with his Spirit was saved eternally in God's mind and plan.

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” John 11:26 (KJV 1900)

So is believing in Christ God's fruit of salvation that tells you he saved you? Or is it a law you must obey in the flesh to earn salvation?

 

[Soyeong]

You must believe (be saved) or you would not repent.

So do you think that Titus 2:11-14 was wrong to describe our salvation as being trained by grace to do those things instead of saying that we will be trained to do those things after we are saved?

 

[Kenny'sID]

If new birth can be lost so instantly because of sin,

Who made the claim it could be lost so instantly?

Me, I'm simply resting in Jesus, knowing that my eternal status depends on his blood, not my perfection.

Then you are saying that is all you need do for salvation is rest, and you need not do as Christ told you we must do, as in being good and not evil, as well as doing works, helping people and such? I mean, you may do some of those things, but you are saying they aren't absolutely necessary?

 

[StillGods]

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 2:38

 

[Dave L]

So do you think that Titus 2:11-14 was wrong to describe our salvation as being trained by grace to do those things instead of saying that we will be trained to do those things after we are saved?

It works like this. A cat does what cats do by nature. A born again Christian does what born again Christians do by nature. It's their nature to believe, hate sin, and love holiness. It is hypocrisy to act like a Christian and pretend to do these things thinking it will save you.

 

[Dave L]

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 2:38

Well, they believed and had salvation already or they would not have believed enough to repent.

 

[StillGods]

Well, they believed and had salvation already or they would not have believed enough to repent.

that is your take on the verse but did they?
a thought to ponder:
salvation is forgiveness of sins.
This verse says that in order to gain both forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit two things need to be done first.. repent and be baptized.
it could be read as Peter saying they had to earn forgiveness of sins (salvation) and the gift of the Holy Spirit by repenting and being baptized first.

 

[StillGods]

those people did not have the Holy Spirit yet because Peter was telling them how to get the Holy Spirit.

you say a person already has the Holy Spirit therefore they can repent but this verse says the opposite.
it is food for thought

 

[Dave L]

that is your take on the verse but did they?
a thought to ponder:
salvation is forgiveness of sins.
This verse says that in order to gain both forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit two things need to be done first.. repent and be baptized.
it could be read as Peter saying they had to earn forgiveness of sins (salvation) and the gift of the Holy Spirit by repenting and being baptized first.

Why would you do anything if you did not first believe? Were they all gamblers?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Jesus said; “Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God’s anger stays on them.” John 3:36 (NCV)

Eternal life is without beginning or end, just as God is eternal. This would mean whom he regenerates with his Spirit was saved eternally in God's mind and plan.

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” John 11:26 (KJV 1900)

So is believing in Christ God's fruit of salvation that tells you he saved you? Or is it a law you must obey in the flesh to earn salvation?

It is a command that all people are required to obey in order to accept God's offer of salvation. You describing it as earning salvation is not how scripture itself ever describes it.

Scripture is clear that we can't earn our own salvation by good works. But, faith in Christ is not a good work. It is a willing, humble, broken response to God's gracious offer of salvation. Putting one's faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior is not a case of trying to earn salvation. It is rather a case of admitting that we can't save ourselves and need Him to be our Savior.

This parable illustrates what I'm talking about:

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Assume for the sake of argument that both the Pharisee and tax collector used free will to choose their behavior described in the parable. In that case it would mean the tax collector willingly chose to humble himself before God and ask for mercy for his sins. Is that a case of someone trying to earn salvation? Clearly not. Instead, it's a case of someone admitting that they are a sinner and cannot save themselves.

This idea that if there is free will and that salvation is offered to all people and is dependent on people choosing to accept the offer then it would mean people are earning their own salvation is absolutely false. Faith in Christ is not among the good works that scripture says don't save people. When Paul said that salvation is "not by works", he wasn't including faith. He specifically said we are saved "through faith" but not "by works" (Eph 2:8-10). He clearly differentiated between faith and works when it comes to what is required for salvation.

Scripture repeatedly says that salvation is "by faith" or "through faith". That wouldn't be the case if faith in Christ was one of the "good works" that don't save us.

 

[Dave L]

It is a command that all people are required to obey in order to accept God's offer of salvation. You describing it as earning salvation is not how scripture itself ever describes it.

Scripture is clear that we can't earn our own salvation by good works. But, faith in Christ is not a good work. It is a willing, humble, broken response to God's gracious offer of salvation. Putting one's faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior is not a case of trying to earn salvation. It is rather a case of admitting that we can't save ourselves and need Him to be our Savior.

This parable illustrates what I'm talking about:

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Assume for the sake of argument that both the Pharisee and tax collector used free will to choose their behavior described in the parable. In that case it would mean the tax collector willingly chose to humble himself before God and ask for mercy for his sins. Is that a case of someone trying to earn salvation? Clearly not. Instead, it's a case of someone admitting that they are a sinner and cannot save themselves.

This idea that if there is free will and that salvation is offered to all people and is dependent on people choosing to accept the offer then it would mean people are earning their own salvation is absolutely false. Faith in Christ is not among the good works that scripture says don't save people. When Paul said that salvation is "not by works", he wasn't including faith. He specifically said we are saved "through faith" but not "by works" (Eph 2:8-10). He clearly differentiated between faith and works when it comes to what is required for salvation.

Scripture repeatedly says that salvation is "by faith" or "through faith". That wouldn't be the case if faith in Christ was one of the "good works" that don't save us.

Law cannot save. You say people must keep a law twisted from the gospel to save themselves.

 

[lsume]

Jesus said; “Those who believe in the Son have eternal life, but those who do not obey the Son will never have life. God’s anger stays on them.” John 3:36 (NCV)

Eternal life is without beginning or end, just as God is eternal. This would mean whom he regenerates with his Spirit was saved eternally in God's mind and plan.

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” John 11:26 (KJV 1900)

So is believing in Christ God's fruit of salvation that tells you he saved you? Or is it a law you must obey in the flesh to earn salvation?

You are saved because you believe. I’m more and more convinced that after trusting God The Father to enter, you are made by Him into what you are to become.

 

[Dave L]

You are saved because you believe. I’m more and more convinced that after trusting God The Father to enter, you are made by Him into what you are to become.

Without the Holy Spirit, you can only believe through the power of the flesh in an idol you think is Jesus. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

By His grace He gives the gift of belief through faith to those who love Him.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

By His grace He gives the faith to believe.

That does not say that faith is a gift. It says that salvation, which is by God's grace through our faith, is the gift of God.

The fact that salvation is offered to all people is made abundantly clear in scripture.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.


The reason that some don't accept the gift is not because God hasn't given them the gift of faith, but rather is because they willingly choose not to accept it.

Matthew 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Law cannot save. You say people must keep a law twisted from the gospel to save themselves.

Faith in Christ is not the law. Please address the points I made specifically and show how what I said is wrong instead of making general statements like this. Back up your opinions with scripture.

 

[eleos1954]

What is it exactly are you disagreeing with? When you just post scripture for the most part with no aparent disagreement, I'm not certian what to do with it.

You had asked this ....

As in the last part of the scripture you cited:
How do you define serving the law of sin? How do you carry that out?

The law of sin ... is when one thinks by keeping the law by their own accord ... then the law is sinful .... without Him we can not keep it.

The same law is NOT sinful when we walk by the Spirit and His Spirit helps us to keep the law and overcome our sin. This is the Spirit of the law. HIS work in us.

Philippians 1:6

New Living Translation
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

 

[Dave L]

That does not say that faith is a gift. It says that salvation, which is by God's grace through our faith, is the gift of God.

The fact that salvation is offered to all people is made abundantly clear in scripture.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.


The reason that some don't accept the gift is not because God hasn't given them the gift of faith, but rather is because they willingly choose not to accept it.

Matthew 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, how can it not be a gift?
“And the believers from among the circumcised [the Jews] who came with Peter were surprised and amazed, because the free gift of the Holy Spirit had been bestowed and poured out largely even on the Gentiles.” Acts 10:45 (AMP)