Self-Deceit and Legalism

[Studyman]

Those men of old were not practitioners of the lawlessness we see in America today from our very judges and law enforcement and governing officials throughout the nation. Pragmatic political ideology is now the dominant force, not law.



God gave to Abraham the victory, not someone else property. That is exactly what the context shows to us in the words Abraham's conversation with Melchizedek. Abraham did exactly according to the Law by returning to his neighbor what he knew was his neighbor's property. To paint Abraham as just anothr product of that culture around him is to bring down to the dirt a man you have never met, nor do you know.



Those sections of those very statutes state why they were written. That is what you have overlooked.



And in that, he nowhere demanded they study and follow the Law of Moses, for he would then be contradicting himself in other of his epistles. I won't argue this endlessly with you as you obviously have no ears to hear ALL of what Paul had to say on the subject. This hand-picking of verses out of their context at the exclusion of so many others is a very typical tactic of you legalists, and it's a dead end road trying to convince you otherwise.



Your arguments are groundless. You have no clues as to spiritual things that Paul and the other apostles specifically addressed. The blinders on either side of your eyes do indeed effectively blind you to the broader spectrum of truth of which Paul addressed. It's pointless. You simply are deaf to anything outside that little compartmentalized box of your religion.

Oh well...

Jr

My arguments are based solely on scriptures, many of which you refuse to even acknowledge, much less examine.

I am deaf to the "other voice" in the garden who preaches to the world that God's Word's can not be trusted and God's Commandments are a Yoke of Bondage that makes people Blind.

You are zealous for your religious philosophy, I will give you that. My hope in that in the private confines of your own home, when no one is watching, that you might actually consider the Scriptures I have posted and the warnings about following the religious philosophies of men.

God did not plead with Israel to place their Faith and Trust in Him, and save them from Egypt, just to place 613 burdensome, grievous, impossible to follow Laws on their Necks, and then slaughter them by the thousands when they didn't keep them. At least not the God of the Bible. This religious philosophy of yours is a deception.

This whole exercise with you has helped me a great deal in that it has grounded my Faith and Belief in the Christ of the Bible even more.

Thank you for that.

 

[SwordmanJr]

My arguments are based solely on scriptures, many of which you refuse to even acknowledge, much less examine.

Oh, I examined them, and I stacked them up with other verses that you refuse to acknowledge as being a balance to your verses. Don't you get it? The Law of Moses is discussed throughout the NT, and you picking only those verses that SEEM to support the idea of once again being bound to obedience to all the Law of Moses is the utter imbalance that you are subjectively applying.

Like I said before, you go ahead and try to obey all the Law of Moses, which you will never be able to accomplish in this life. I will pray for the Lord's filling in my heart of all that He has for me. You trust in the letter, I trust in the Spirit for obedience and relevance of teaching.

I am deaf to the "other voice" in the garden who preaches to the world that God's Word's can not be trusted and God's Commandments are a Yoke of Bondage that makes people Blind.

You do indeed flatter yourself to stand up your straw man arguments. You refuse the words of the apostle where he declared the Law of Moses a yoke his forefathers and that they at that time could not bear, and then you turn around and add what is not there, and then think I am on the wrong. Go for it. I am not the one who will answer for your own lack. Jesus is the Judge, and I leave it all to Him.

It's my hope that you will one day embrace what ALL scripture has to say on the subject, and teach that accordingly. Until then, you have nothing but subjectively chosen passages at the exclusion of all others on the given subject. Systematic Theology is a discipline whereby we lift up what ALL scripture has to say on a topic rather than hand-picking out only those verses that fit our current beliefs. May you delve more deeply into a complete, systematic approach to any and all study.

Jr

 

[Studyman]

You do indeed flatter yourself to stand up your straw man arguments. You refuse the words of the apostle where he declared the Law of Moses a yoke his forefathers and that they at that time could not bear, and then you turn around and add what is not there, and then think I am on the wrong. Go for it. I am not the one who will answer for your own lack. Jesus is the Judge, and I leave it all to Him.

I understand that you are set in your religious philosophy, and that is fine. The purpose of these forums is to discuss theology. You have presented a perfect opportunity to examine the difference between what is written, and the religious philosophy of men that are so precious to them.

You claim Peter said the Pharisees were trying to get the New Converts to follow the Law of Moses and this was the Yoke that their Father's couldn't bear. It's easy to go back and read what the Yoke of Bondage was that their fathers couldn't bear if a person is interested in Biblical Truth.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

"Many" preach that this "Yoke" that these Pharisees were attempting to place on the necks of the Disciples that their fathers couldn't bear was God's Laws, because that is the label these Pharisees placed on their religious philosophy.

So given we are to live by every Word of God, lets see what God actually says about the burden the fathers couldn't bear.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

But "Many" who come in Jesus' Name, imply that Jesus is lying here. That these Pharisees were not teaching for doctrines the Commandments of Men they called the "law of Moses", but were placing God's Laws on the necks of people.

John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

But "Many" who come in Jesus' Name, teaches this Jesus is lying here as well. That the Yoke the fathers couldn't bear was not their doctrines and commandments of men as Jesus said, but God's Laws.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

But "Many" who come in Jesus' Name, teaches this is also a lie, that it is impossible to obey God's unbearable Yoke of Bondage HE placed on the fathers who couldn't bear them.

Mat. 23:4 For they (Pharisees, NOT God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

But "Many" who come in Jesus' Name, preaches again that these Word's can't be trusted. That in their religious philosophy It was God who placed the burdens on the necks of the fathers they couldn't bear. Not the Pharisees and Shepherds who God said led people astray.

Jer. 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

But "Many" who come in Jesus' Name, preaches this is not true. It was God and HIS Laws that caused the fathers to go astray.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

But "Many" who come in Jesus' Name, teaches these religious leaders were placing "all" of God's Laws on the necks of the people, "to the letter".. You even came up with a fictitious number of 613 Laws God placed on the necks of every person who HE saved from Egypt. Again, implying that these Word's of Jesus also can not be trusted.

Jer. 23:16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

But here again, according to "Many" who come in Jesus' Name,, these Word's are also lies, because it was God's Laws these religious leaders placed on the necks of the people. Not their own religious philosophy as the scriptures clearly show.

This same exact scenario took place when Jesus came on the scene. He opened up their own Scriptures and showed them where their own religious philosophy was NOT God's Commandants, but their own righteousness. Their own religious philosophy. Much in the same way God's Word's expose your religious philosophy.

But it didn't matter to them. Not Paul, not Jesus, not Moses, not God Almighty would persuade them to trust in the Word's of God over the Yoke of Bondage of lies and deceit of their own religious philosophies.

Rom. 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

But once again, because these words do not further the religious philosophy of "Many" who come in Jesus' Name, that it was God's Laws that caused Israel to fall and not their own refusal to "believe" His Words like Caleb and Zacharias.

They could not be persuaded even as you will not be persuaded. And the Christ of the Bible, in His infinite wisdom and Mercy, even tells us why this is.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I am thankful for this exercise which shows how the religious philosophies of men can be discerned by simply "believing" "ALL" that is written.

The religious philosophy you promote, that God's Law was the Yoke of Bondage the father's couldn't bear is an insidious falsehood, easily discerned if we are interested in finding the truth about why Israel fell.

This is why, in Acts 15, James and Peter sent the New Converts to hear Moses being read in the Synagogues each Sabbath. In this way they actually hear what the God of the Bible actually says, instead of relying on the religious philosophies of men that were the Yoke of Bondage their fathers couldn't bear.

As it is written;

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, (613 laws) after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[SwordmanJr]

I understand that you are set in your religious philosophy, and that is fine. The purpose of these forums is to discuss theology. You have presented a perfect opportunity to examine the difference between what is written, and the religious philosophy of men that are so precious to them.

You claim Peter said the Pharisees were trying to get the New Converts to follow the Law of Moses and this was the Yoke that their Father's couldn't bear. It's easy to go back and read what the Yoke of Bondage was that their fathers couldn't bear if a person is interested in Biblical Truth.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

"Many" preach that this "Yoke" that these Pharisees were attempting to place on the necks of the Disciples that their fathers couldn't bear was God's Laws, because that is the label these Pharisees placed on their religious philosophy.

Thank you for pointing out religious philosophy. It does indeed exist.

Blessedly, the text of Acts 15 is very clear, and does not anywhere in the wording bring into the mix any idea of pharasaical laws, teachings, traditions, restrictions or anything else you and others have tried to introduce into the text what clearly is not there. Also, I never said Peter was trying to put the yoke of the Law of Moses upon new converts. Perhaps you misspoke, but it is a patent flashood to say that I had done such.

The context of Acts 15 is clear and open for all to read for themselves without all the additions and corruptions legalists try to inject into those passages what clearly is not there. Dragging other particulars from other sections of scriptures by ripping them out from their context and transporting them over into the context of Acts 15, all without any direct parallels in language, topic and meaning, that is an exercise in futility to try and convince those of us who know better. That tactic only works within cults like mormonism and jehovah's witness groupings. Using their tactics is highly suspect in my estimation.

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

Rom 7:6 KJV - But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

And yet there are those who continue to enslave themselves to the Law.

Rom 8:2 KJV - For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

There is so much blessing and freedom when we read and believe what it written, not in what other men inject into the text to enslave you.

Rom 8:4 KJV - That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It is so amazing how often the Spirit is center stage in having replaced the letter of the Law, that we may be filled and live in obedience by that same Spirit.

Gal 3:2 KJV - This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Faith. Not the letter of the Law, but faith and Spirit. How wonderful indeed.

Gal 3:5 KJV - He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Faith has brought about many miracles, and continues to do so.

Gal 5:18 KJV - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

In this verse, the Greek word translated "under" has the meaning, "to be under, i. e. subject to the power of, any person or thing:" according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon.

Did you get that? Being led by the Spirit, we are not subject to the power of the Law. How empty they are who subject themselves to the Law rather than the Spirit.

In spite of all this, and so much more, we will be accused by legalists of misrepresenting the texts. What manner of deception are they under who see what isn't there, and who render so much different what is said on the basis of other verses that are not related, as if other things Paul and the apostles said somehow draws all these verses, and many more, down the roadway of death through the letter of the Law. Those who wish the legalists to be their slave masters to false doctrine, go for it, and please report back to us what it's like to be crushed under such a horrid weight.

Jr

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, I don't believe we are under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. Things like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, and the dietary laws, etc. no longer apply. But many today attempt to turn God's grace into a license for immorality (See: Jude 1:4). We are saved by God's grace through initially and foundationally. This is very true. Without God's grace through faith, we would all perish and have no hope. But that does not mean there are no laws that God wants us to obey as a part of being in His kingdom.

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation.

17 “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”
(Matthew 19:17).

25 “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.”
(Luke 10:25-28).

“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.” (1 John 3:23).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;” (Hebrews 5:9).

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” (Revelation 22:14).​

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:4).

There is a righteous aspect or part of the Law that needs to be fulfilled by us. This would be following the commands in the New Testament because the NT Scriptures are inspired by the Spirit. At the time the letter to the Romans was written, NT Scripture was still being formed. So it is not just following what we think is the Spirit leading us based on our own thoughts and feelings, but it is following the NT Scriptures.

What is “righteousness of the Law” that we need to fulfill?

8 “Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
(Romans 13:8-10).​

We fulfill the Old Law by loving our neighbor. Loving our neighbor is a part of our instructions in the New Testament. If we are not loving our neighbor, then things will not go well for us.

41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
(Matthew 25:41-46).​

Granted, there are more commands in the New Testament we have to obey. But Paul's point was to get Christians out from under obeying the Old Law and in following the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. For the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

Anyways, in conclusion: This is why I don't like the term “Legalist” because it is just not in line with the faith if one were to more carefully read and believe their New Testament. The “Legalism” or “Legalist” phrases get thrown around a lot and they don't realize that if one is not obeying God as a part of salvation (i.e. keeping God's laws), then one is for disobedience. For the opposite of obedience is disobedience. For is God really going to reward those servants who justified sin in this life or is He going to reward those who were faithful and they obeyed Him? Think. God is good, and He is a holy, and just God and He cannot agree with a person's thinking that they can willfully set out to sin with the thinking they are in God's good graces. Salvation simply doesn't work like that. God is good, and there is no darkness within Him.

 

[SwordmanJr]

It's interesting that in James 2, he talks about how faith without "works" is dead. The Greek word translated as "works" has a specific meaning. According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, in that chapter of James, the word "works," "is applied to the conduct of men... - whether good or bad." Some assume it's "obedient works of the Law of Moses," never minding that the Law of Moses is nowhere even hinted at in the context.

Perhaps it could be said that James is trying to say that no genuine faith in Christ Jesus can possibly exist in anyone who is without desire and drive to do good works, as good works are a natural outflow of a true and genuine faith in Christ Jesus.

So, for those of us whose faith is rooted in Christ Jesus, we do not have to worry about consciously/legalistically leveraging our efforts to do good works since they are as much a part of us as any other functional part of our physical bodies.

With His Law written in our hearts, it is without human effort that we are driven by His perfect Light to do what is in His Law for us. Obedience is His empowerment from within, as His temples, that His power is manifest by His Spirit. In His Hands, we are servants, priests and emissaries of a Perfect Monarchy.

I therefore leave legalistic pursuits to those who would try to live by the letter.

Jr

 

[Studyman]

Thank you for pointing out religious philosophy. It does indeed exist.

Blessedly, the text of Acts 15 is very clear, and does not anywhere in the wording bring into the mix any idea of pharasaical laws, teachings, traditions, restrictions or anything else you and others have tried to introduce into the text what clearly is not there. Also, I never said Peter was trying to put the yoke of the Law of Moses upon new converts. Perhaps you misspoke, but it is a patent flashood to say that I had done such.

The context of Acts 15 is clear and open for all to read for themselves without all the additions and corruptions legalists try to inject into those passages what clearly is not there. Dragging other particulars from other sections of scriptures by ripping them out from their context and transporting them over into the context of Acts 15, all without any direct parallels in language, topic and meaning, that is an exercise in futility to try and convince those of us who know better. That tactic only works within cults like mormonism and jehovah's witness groupings. Using their tactics is highly suspect in my estimation.

Jr

The religious philosophy that the God of the Bible is a tyrant who placed “bone crushing” burdens on the backs of those children of His Friend Abraham is not a New religion. Constantine, the founder of modern religion, started this modern religious philosophy. But the practice of religious men rejecting the true God and creating their own was around even before him.

For me, I believe in the God of the Written Word. I don’t believe He lied to Abraham’s children as your religious philosophy teaches. I don’t believe He was an unjust God who tricked Abraham’s children into following Him out of Egypt, only to Torture and kill them in the wilderness.

But if a man has been convinced of this blasphemy against the God of the Bible, it is perfectly understandable why they would create their own Saviour, one who is so handsome, long flowing hair, who allows its people to live however they please after the imaginations of their own mind.
I can imagine most young teenagers felt the same way about their parents at some point.

The rules of the parent are put forth out of love and concern for their children. How much more from the creator of us and all things.

But alas, there are many who simply don’t believe in the God of the Bible and His Love for His creation.

Like you, they have been convinced that He lied to Abraham’s children, and placed “bone crushing” laws on them to destroy them.

With this as your foundation, it infects every scripture you read, and causes you to reject every scripture which confirms God instructions as a token of His Love for His people.

This is the reason for our disagreements. It’s OK because we make our choices and are judged by them, as it is written in the Holy Scriptures.

I can’t reject what God made for me, and you can’t accept what God made for you.

Like Cain and Abel we are continuing the human struggle that will carry on long after we are both gone.

1 JOHN 5:3 KJV "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

 

[SwordmanJr]

The religious philosophy that the God of the Bible is a tyrant who placed “bone crushing” burdens on the backs of those children of His Friend Abraham is not a New religion. Constantine, the founder of modern religion, started this modern religious philosophy. But the practice of religious men rejecting the true God and creating their own was around even before him.

Well, I don't know about Constantine and gang, but I do know not one man, apart from Christ Jesus, lived the Law perfectly. Not you, not me, not any other man apart from Christ. Throwing in language that is extreme, and therefore not representative of what I said, also fails to make your case.

For me, I believe in the God of the Written Word. I don’t believe He lied to Abraham’s children as your religious philosophy teaches.

I said nothing about lies, except what you are saying that I allegedly said.

I don’t believe He was an unjust God who tricked Abraham’s children into following Him out of Egypt, only to Torture and kill them in the wilderness.

Not sure what this has to do with anything discussed prior, but please do ramble on...

But if a man has been convinced of this blasphemy against the God of the Bible, it is perfectly understandable why they would create their own Saviour, one who is so handsome, long flowing hair, who allows its people to live however they please after the imaginations of their own mind.
I can imagine most young teenagers felt the same way about their parents at some point.

LOL. I always did get a kick out of those paintings of some groomed hippy with a bushy beard.

Like you, they have been convinced that He lied to Abraham’s children, and placed “bone crushing” laws on them to destroy them.

Bone crushing. You put that in quotes as if I had used that imagery. Did I actually do that?

With this as your foundation, it infects every scripture you read, and causes you to reject every scripture which confirms God instructions as a token of His Love for His people.

Quite the contrary. I only reject your legalistic rejections of the scriptures that don't agree with your personal twists and gyrations.

I can’t reject what God made for me, and you can’t accept what God made for you.

This is why I'm glad you're not the One sitting on that Throne of Judgement.

1 JOHN 5:3 KJV "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

Yes, and His commandments He thankfully writes in the hearts of His true followers.

Jr

 

[Justified_By_Christ_Alone]

They call us "Easy Believists" and I call them "Easy Legalists". Because they lowered God's standards and think they are keeping the law because they are not sinning as much as other people. It's definitely a pride thing, the first sin ever committed by Lucifer.

Anytime someone uses the phrase "easy believism" to mock the gospel, I just share this verse with them:

Matthew 11:30
"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

 

[Soyeong]

They call us "Easy Believists" and I call them "Easy Legalists". Because they lowered God's standards and think they are keeping the law because they are not sinning as much as other people. It's definitely a pride thing, the first sin ever committed by Lucifer.

Anytime someone uses the phrase "easy believism" to mock the gospel, I just share this verse with them:

Matthew 11:30
"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to keep and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a choice and as a possibility, and believing that we can keep the law is a matter of putting our faith in God's word, not a matter of pride. In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome, so saying that we can't keep the law would be denying that God's commandments are not burdensome and would be denying that there is anyone who has ever loved God.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14). Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law both by word and by example. In Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus was inviting people to become his followers and to learn from him, not inviting people to reject what he taught. By saying that we would find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls. If God is a legalist for giving the Mosaic Law and Jesus is a legalist for living in sinless obedience to it and for teaching his followers how to obey it by word and by example, then being a legalist would be being in good company, but that is not what legalism refers to.

 

[Justified_By_Christ_Alone]

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to keep and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a choice and as a possibility, and believing that we can keep the law is a matter of putting our faith in God's word, not a matter of pride. In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome, so saying that we can't keep the law would be denying that God's commandments are not burdensome and would be denying that there is anyone who has ever loved God.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14). Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law both by word and by example. In Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus was inviting people to become his followers and to learn from him, not inviting people to reject what he taught. By saying that we would find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls. If God is a legalist for giving the Mosaic Law and Jesus is a legalist for living in sinless obedience to it and for teaching his followers how to obey it by word and by example, then being a legalist would be being in good company, but that is not what legalism refers to.

Jesus told the Jews to repent because they were trusting in their dead works of the law... Hebrews confirms this. Faith is taking God at his word. You can't keep the law perfectly, anyone who says they are without sin the truth is not in him.

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus told the Jews to repent because they were trusting in their dead works of the law... Hebrews confirms this. Faith is taking God at his word. You can't keep the law perfectly, anyone who says they are without sin the truth is not in him.

Jesus never criticized the Pharisees for obeying God's law, but he did criticize them for not obeying it. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not opposing their obedience to God's law, but rather he was calling them to a fuller obedience to it. Not once does the Bible instruct us to repent from our obedience to God and return to living in sin, but rather it is always the other way around. The wages of sin is death, so our dead works are the ones that lead to death, which are our sins in transgression of God's law. Faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law, so faith in God is in regard to trusting Him to guide in how to rightly live through His law.

I said nothing about keeping the law perfectly. Again, Deuteronomy 30:11-20 presents keeping the law as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Thinking that we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason would mean that God essentially gave the law with the goal of cursing His children when in reality God can be trusted to give us laws that are for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have already failed to have perfect obedience, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that perfect obedience is not a requirement for us.

 

[Justified_By_Christ_Alone]

Jesus never criticized the Pharisees for obeying God's law, but he did criticize them for not obeying it. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not opposing their obedience to God's law, but rather he was calling them to a fuller obedience to it. Not once does the Bible instruct us to repent from our obedience to God and return to living in sin, but rather it is always the other way around. The wages of sin is death, so our dead works are the ones that lead to death, which are our sins in transgression of God's law. Faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law, so faith in God is in regard to trusting Him to guide in how to rightly live through His law.

I said nothing about keeping the law perfectly. Again, Deuteronomy 30:11-20 presents keeping the law as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Thinking that we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason would mean that God essentially gave the law with the goal of cursing His children when in reality God can be trusted to give us laws that are for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have already failed to have perfect obedience, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that perfect obedience is not a requirement for us.

Jesus spent his entire earthly ministry rebuking the religious Pharisees.

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:20

Where in scripture does it say trying your best to keep the law saves you? Even atheists do their best to be a good person... My bible says believing in what Jesus did for you on the cross is what saves you.... If you trust in any work you do then you've trampled on the cross and deem what Christ did as insufficient.

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus spent his entire earthly ministry rebuking the religious Pharisees.

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:20

Where in scripture does it say trying your best to keep the law saves you? Even atheists do their best to be a good person... My bible says believing in what Jesus did for you on the cross is what saves you.... If you trust in any work you do then you've trampled on the cross and deem what Christ did as insufficient.

Jesus set a sinless example how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he was much more religious than the Pharisees were, and it would be absurd to think that he was rebuking the Pharisees for doing what God had commanded them to do in accordance with the example that he set for us to follow. His purpose in rebuking the Pharisees was to get them to repent of their hypocrisy and to return to obedience to God's law, not in order to get them to turn away from God and rebel against His law. In Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized the Pharisees for hypocritically setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God is isn't trustworthy, so to obey God's law is to put our trust in God, while to refuse to obey God's law is for someone to express that they don't think that God can be trusted to guide them in how they should live. This is again why Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In James 2:17-18, James said that faith without works is dead and he would show he faith by his works, so doing good works in obedience to God is what faith looks like. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, and in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus.

In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do. So God graciously teaching us to do good works in obedience to His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation, and participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so to becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to believe in what Jesus did for us on the cross (Acts 21:20), while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is what it looks like to trample on what Jesus did for us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They call us "Easy Believists" and I call them "Easy Legalists". Because they lowered God's standards and think they are keeping the law because they are not sinning as much as other people. It's definitely a pride thing, the first sin ever committed by Lucifer.

Anytime someone uses the phrase "easy believism" to mock the gospel, I just share this verse with them:

Matthew 11:30
"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

If that was the only verse in the Bible, you might be onto something, but it is not. Scripture has to be read as a whole. Jesus also says:

“Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” (Luke 13:24).

The apostle Paul says:

“...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

 

[Studyman]

Well, I don't know about Constantine and gang, but I do know not one man, apart from Christ Jesus, lived the Law perfectly. Not you, not me, not any other man apart from Christ. Throwing in language that is extreme, and therefore not representative of what I said, also fails to make your case.

No one is saying that humans must keep God's Commandments perfectly or be destroyed. And more than a child must obey their parents perfectly or be destroyed. My point to to show you there is a "Way of the Lord" that He said to repent towards. Not the "way" of this religious franchise or that religious franchise. And you preaching that no one can be Faithful to God and His instructions is your religious philosophy, not God's. At least according to HIM.

Gen. 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Ps. 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Your religious philosophy that man can not become obedient Son's of God is a popular religious belief no doubt, but is a teaching contrary to the Holy scriptures. My only reason for replying to you is to point out the difference between what you preach and what the Holy Scriptures teach. In the hope that you might reconsider your religious philosophy based on the teaching of men, and consider, as Jesus instructed "Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God"..

I said nothing about lies, except what you are saying that I allegedly said.

Your entire religious philosophy is founded on the falsehood that God gave Abraham's Children Laws impossible to follow, while telling them they could follow them, even as their father Abraham followed them. You are free to continue this preaching if you please, I was just pointing out that I don't believe God lied to the Israelite's regarding His Instructions to them and their ability to obey Him, even as Caleb and Joshua obeyed Him.

 

[SwordmanJr]

I can't seem to find anyone who can explain to me that if the early Gentile believers were required to be taught in local synagogues the Law of Moses, why is there no record of them going to Jerusalem as the Law demands. It's enough to ask where the secret command is located for them to bind themselves under the Law of Moses, but where is the evidence for them having done according to the demands of that Law? Surely that would have been vastly important.

Who among you in this forum who consider yourselves bound by the Law of Moses make your yearly trip to Jerusalem? The convenient excuse for there not being a temple doesn't work, for the Law of Moses made no such allowances for deviation, except for those who were in the desert, not yet having entered into the promised land.

Jr

 

[SwordmanJr]

-

No one is saying that humans must keep God's Commandments perfectly or be destroyed.

You don't have to say it. James DID say it. Do you not know the scriptures? He didn't use the term "destroyed." He put it another way:

Jas 2:10 KJV - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

You should learn the scriptures before trying to be a teacher who is allegedly authorized and empowered to change the scriptures, and to nullify what the scriptures teach.

You keep getting caught in your inconsistencies, and continue to speak as if you were never wrong.

Don't you know when to stop. be silent, and learn?

Jr

 

[Studyman]

I can't seem to find anyone who can explain to me that if the early Gentile believers were required to be taught in local synagogues the Law of Moses, why is there no record of them going to Jerusalem as the Law demands.

There is no Law of Moses which commanded Israel to go to Jerusalem. Religious men have a long history of making up lies about God in order to promote their own religious philosophies. Can you show me where God wrote with HIS Finger that men are to go, by law, to some city? Of course not, you just made this up, or heard from some "minister of righteousness" you fancy.

Jesus commanded the multitudes, and also His Disciples, to listen and "Do" what the Pharisees and Scribes read from the Book of the Law, because that is where the "righteousness of God" is revealed, and the Gospel of Christ is located, as Jesus, and Paul, inspired by the Spirit of Christ, tells us..

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 4:4 from the Law and Prophets where the Gospel of Christ was located)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

The Jews were shown the Gospel of Christ first, but didn't mix "Belief/Faith" when they hear it.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

And again;

Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Paul was charged with teaching this same Gospel to the Gentiles.

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Since the Jews rejected these requirements of God for Salvation, HE offered the Same Good News of the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Back then the only way to hear from Moses was to find a Levite Priest with exclusive access to the Book of the Law that Paul taught from. This is why Jesus directed the people to listen to the Scribes, and also why Peter and James, in acts 15, sent the Gentiles to hear the Book of the Law in the synagogues read each Sabbath. But this Levitical Priesthood Law of exclusive ownership to the Book of the Law was becoming obsolete as the promise of the Christ drew nearer, that "after those days" "ALL" would know Him from the least to the greatest. And here we are with the ":Book of the Law" available without the Temples made of wood and stone, or the preachers who sit in their chief seats.

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

We all, Jews and Gentiles, have HIS Word in our own homes, there will be no excuse for men to refuse to Glorify God as God.

It's enough to ask where the secret command is located for them to bind themselves under the Law of Moses, but where is the evidence for them having done according to the demands of that Law? Surely that would have been vastly important.

The Biblical evidence that the believing Gentiles obeyed the God of the Bible is overwhelming, you just can't have "belief/Faith" in the evidence because it directly contradicts the religious philosophy you are peddling. I will provide, for those reading along, just some of the evidence.

Rom. 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Full disclosure here, I am basing my understanding here on the "belief/Faith" that God's Laws are "GOOD, HOLY AND JUST" and man's doctrines and religious traditions are "evil". (Rom. 3:4) And that "turning to God" means to repent from our religious philosophies,, denying our self, and turn to the Living god for guidance.

Rom. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, (Remember, Gentiles didn't have the Oracles of God from birth as did the Jews) were do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

1 5 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

Paul concludes;

Rom. 2: For circumcision (being a Jew) verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision (Gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision (Gentiles) which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In other words, God is looking for men to worship HIM in Spirit and Truth, not just giving lip service while transgressing God's commandments by ancient religious traditions. Gentiles from birth who "Turn to the God of the Bible" and are "Doers of His Laws, and not hearers only, as were the Pharisees, they SHALL be justified.

But remember;

Rom. 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, (for unbelief of the Oracles of God) take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Just as those Jews who heard God's instructions and rejected them as you are promoting)

Who among you in this forum who consider yourselves bound by the Law of Moses make your yearly trip to Jerusalem? The convenient excuse for there not being a temple doesn't work, for the Law of Moses made no such allowances for deviation, except for those who were in the desert, not yet having entered into the promised land.

I have been purchased by the Christ, with HIS Blood. I no longer follow every wind of doctrine promoted by the religions of the land I was born into. I am bound to Him, in Faith, waiting for the Heavenly Jerusalem, for a continuing city whose foundation is made and built by God, that I will inherit, "IF I endure to the end", "IF I Continue in HIS GOODNESS", "if I depart from Lawlessness".

At least according to the Word's of the Grace Giver, in which I place my Faith.

Those who Love the Word of God which became Flesh, they understand that we are waiting for this Heavenly Jerusalem, and a "continuing city". That God's People, that HE gives to Jesus, are foreigners in a strange land as our father Abraham was.

Heb. 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith (Obedience) he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

I am no ashamed of the Gospel of the Christ of the Bible.