Abominations.

[Carl Emerson]

Since Jesus came, the bar regarding what sin is raised.

In the old testament it was a list of offenses only good for behavioral modification.

This type of teaching is explained by the new testament writings as "taste not, touch not, handle not" and has no value for restraining sensual indulgence.

So the understanding of what an abomination is, is related to the quality of the sin internally.

The old testament teachings only cover the outward appearance, but Jesus taught to clean the inside of the cup so that the outside may also be clean.

So say someone goes about cleaning the inside of the cup as instructed and then his life is a mess due to the impurities being dislodged, is badgering someone who is being sanctified in this manner something God would do, or Satan would do?

How do you know?

So the old testament way of looking at things was because the old testament people could not receive the Holy Spirit like we could - so expecting an inward focus was a tad unrealistic.

Since we are given more now, more is expected.

Name calling doesn't result in repentance, Kindness does see Romans 2:4 and context.

Do you think Paul should have been kind to the young man and not excommunicated him ???

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Do you think Paul should have been kind to the young man and not excommunicated him ???

Honestly, wasn't reflecting on it.

I wasn't there, so don't know what really happened.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think the way I see it is, after centuries and millennia of excommunicating people - this has resulted in at least one new religion and the majority of the world suspicious of anyone talking about Jesus.

I tend to look at what Jesus did.

 

[Dave L]

Hi there,

What relevance do the Old Covenant Abominations have in the New Covenant?

If God does not change, do these sins have greater consequence today?

Why did they get little mention at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)

I appreciate your responses.

OT Israel was mostly wicked unbelievers under God's wrath. NT Israel is believers only and doesn't need the threats.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think the way I see it is, after centuries and millennia of excommunicating people - this has resulted in at least one new religion and the majority of the world suspicious of anyone talking about Jesus.

I tend to look at what Jesus did.

So you dont think Jesus was working through Paul to purge the church of sinful practices ???

 

[Carl Emerson]

OT Israel was mostly wicked unbelievers under God's wrath. NT Israel is believers only and doesn't need the threats.

This doesn't seem to line up with Pauls dealing with the young man...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So you dont think Jesus was working through Paul to purge the church of sinful practices ???

I understand that Paul is not in the Trinity.

So Jesus' actions would carry more weight.

I don't necessarily disagree with what Paul did, but I think after 2 millennia of combined interpretations flavoring and re-translating every verse - Placing priority on Jesus is important.

 

[Dave L]

This doesn't seem to line up with Pauls dealing with the young man...

Read the OT through and witness the Jewish child sacrifice to Molech. The Cannibalism, the exile and captivity, the paganism and idol worship..... and try to find it in the Church.

 

[Redwingfan9]

Ii's helpful to look at the penalties for "abominations" in the old testament. For instance, eating a catfish:

Lev 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Compared to homosexuality:

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

They are both abominations, but there is no punishment specified for someone who eats a catfish. It's a ritual defilement. Homosexuality however is punishable by death:

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It's the origin of mortal and venial sin. One is punishable by death, i.e., mortal, while the other is not. Those ritual defilements did not make their way into Christianity.

Those ritual defilements didn't make it into Christianity because Jesus fulfills the ceremonial law, all of which pointed to his perfection. Criminal law is still in place as it regulates man's behavior towards one another.

 

[chilehed]

Why did they get little mention at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)

Because no one was calling them into question.

 

[Andrewn]

So a church that excommunicates in similar circumstances today would likely come under political pressure - even legal pressure to restore the one if he repented or not...

As far as I know, no one has the legal right to attend a church. It's not a business. Our fellowship has told people that they are no longer welcome.

The church is supposed to be a hospital for damaged / sinful people. Why not love sinners, educate them about repentance, and show them Christian example rather than ostracizing them?

The idea of excommunication has been used way too much by churches throughout history. It's difficult to know the exact circumstances in Corinth. It makes sense to excommunicate people who are proud of their sin and teach others to follow their example (this was probably the situation in Corinth), but not just bec of their sin.

 

[JacksBratt]

Hi there,

What relevance do the Old Covenant Abominations have in the New Covenant?

If God does not change, do these sins have greater consequence today?

Why did they get little mention at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)

I appreciate your responses.

A sin is a sin is a sin..

Anyone who is not a believer and does not accept that Christ is their savior.. will never enter heaven.. will not have eternal life...

No matter if they are a mass murderer, petty thief... glutton, pedophile or abuser of others....

You are either saved... or not saved.

 

[Ananias]

I understand that Paul is not in the Trinity.

So Jesus' actions would carry more weight.

I don't necessarily disagree with what Paul did, but I think after 2 millennia of combined interpretations flavoring and re-translating every verse - Placing priority on Jesus is important.

Jesus himself spoke on this issue in Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[Ananias]

On the excommunication issue - I've always considered that more an element of church practice than theology per se. If you have a member of the church who is a reprobate and refuses to reform or repent, then they must be ejected from the church to protect the other members. 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.

 

[A_Thinker]

Hi there,

What relevance do the Old Covenant Abominations have in the New Covenant?

If God does not change, do these sins have greater consequence today?

Why did they get little mention at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)

I appreciate your responses.

I don't think that the Old Covenant abominations are applicable in the New Covenant.

The Old Covenant was about conforming to a standard.

The New Covenant is about existing in a family ...

 

[Zao is life]

Do you think Paul should have been kind to the young man and not excommunicated him ???

"All things are lawful to me, but not all things profit. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Meats for the belly and the belly for meats, but God shall destroy both it and them.

But the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord is for the body. And God has both raised up the Lord, and also will raise us up by His own power.

Do you not know that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them the members of a harlot? Let it not be! Or do you not know that he being joined to a harlot is one body? For He says, The two shall be one flesh.

But he being joined to the Lord is one spirit.

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits fornication sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit in you, whom you have of God? And you are not your own, for you are bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's." (I Corinthians 6:12-20)

Is the root cause of all fornication not idolatry? Personally I think that your example shows that Paul would encourage the congregations he formed to live Godly lives, understanding the weakness of the flesh, but he would also deal with any individual continuing to commit fornication without repentance, in a way that was necessary and befitting, so as to save the individual's soul, and also for the good of the body of Christ. So I think the word "unrepentant" is the operative word. Any individual who accepts Jesus as Savior must also accept Him as Lord, but Jesus is only my Lord to the extent to which I submit to Him:

"Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you.

Therefore watch, for you do not know either the day or the hour in which the Son of man comes. (Matthew 25:11).

"And why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?

Whoever comes to Me and hears My words, and does them, I will show you to whom he is like.

He is like a man who built a house and dug deep and laid the foundation on a rock; and a flood occurring, the stream burst against that house and could not shake it; for it was founded on a rock.

But he who hears and does not perform, is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, on which the stream burst, and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great." (Luke 6:46-49).

I agree with you. The public church is already a compromised church. Full of people full of ideas but who lack humility. Full of compromises, and are being forced more and more through "hate speech" laws to do as the state forces them to. What about the day churches are no longer allowed to refuse "marriage" to certain "couples"? Churchianity is not Christianity.

Paul preached to crowds and established congregations of believers who met in one another's homes. I doubt that any buildings were built yet in his day so as to be considered "churches". Paul preached publicly but fellowshipped privately.

 

[nolidad]

Hi there,

What relevance do the Old Covenant Abominations have in the New Covenant?

If God does not change, do these sins have greater consequence today?

Why did they get little mention at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)

I appreciate your responses.

Hi Carl:

The big issue is what word was used that was translated abomination? Some meant a terrible thing and others meant an unclean or common thing.

Many of the "abominations" God gave to Israel were simply things to do or not do to make them different from the gentiles around them.

All teh "abominations" that are sins have been carried over ot eh New with the exceptionof Sabbath. We live in a permanent Sabbath now so we are not required to observe a day!

 

[Andrewn]

If you have a member of the church who is a reprobate and refuses to reform or repent, then they must be ejected from the church to protect the other members. 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.

Reading the entire epistle, there were clearly a lot of problems among the Corinthians. Paul could have excommunicated half the church but he didn't. There must have been a special problem with this one person. As I wrote above, he could have been showing pride in his action or teaching others to do the same.

 

[eleos1954]

Since Jesus came, the bar regarding what sin is raised.

In the old testament it was a list of offenses only good for behavioral modification.

This type of teaching is explained by the new testament writings as "taste not, touch not, handle not" and has no value for restraining sensual indulgence.

So the understanding of what an abomination is, is related to the quality of the sin internally.

The old testament teachings only cover the outward appearance, but Jesus taught to clean the inside of the cup so that the outside may also be clean.

So say someone goes about cleaning the inside of the cup as instructed and then his life is a mess due to the impurities being dislodged, is badgering someone who is being sanctified in this manner something God would do, or Satan would do?

How do you know?

So the old testament way of looking at things was because the old testament people could not receive the Holy Spirit like we could - so expecting an inward focus was a tad unrealistic.

Since we are given more now, more is expected.

Name calling doesn't result in repentance, Kindness does see Romans 2:4 and context.

(because pretending to comply so the bully will go away is not repentance)

So the old testament way of looking at things was because the old testament people could not receive the Holy Spirit like we could - so expecting an inward focus was a tad unrealistic.

I disagree with this .... the Holy Spirit has always (and does) strived/strives with mankind ... it is a matter (throughout history and into the future) whether the person listened/listens to the Holy Spirit and responded/responds to Him ... or not.

"Poured out" and "indwelling" are both terms designed to highlight the great fullness with which the NT church has been granted the grace of the Holy Spirit. True, the Holy Spirit is described as doing many things in the NT that were never mentioned in the OT.

However, just because they aren’t explicitly mentioned doesn’t mean that He wasn’t doing them. What the Holy Spirit is doing now is what He’s been doing ever since the days of Adam and Eve. He has always been the Comforter of Gods’s people. He has always been the One who sanctifies the heart of a believer, and points it in the direction of God. He has always been the One that empowers the people of God to overcome sin and to do mighty deeds of love and courage. He has always been the one who cries out, "Abba, Father" in the hearts of His people. He has always been the One who causes men to be born again, giving them new life in Christ.

But the fact is that in the NT age we are more keenly aware of the Holy Spirit because we have full account through a long history available to us, the appearance of our Savior and the detailed teachings of Jesus, how He lived His life etc .... ie we have more detailed knowledge ... not more more and/or better access to the inner work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Cis.jd]

Hi there,

What relevance do the Old Covenant Abominations have in the New Covenant?

If God does not change, do these sins have greater consequence today?

Why did they get little mention at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15)

I appreciate your responses.

It's not about God changing/not changing. Society changes and the environment changes, and rights or wrongs can change depending on circumstances.