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Icyspark

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Moses said NO ONE had the law the law God gave to Israel, until God gave it to him on Mount Sinai:


Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deu 5:3 The LORD made NOT this covenant with our fathers, but with US even-us, who are all of us here alive THIS day.


Hi chad kincham,

As I stated in my previous post, it is apparent that the law was revealed and known in the world before Moses without there being any record of God commanding or otherwise revealing His will to His creation.
  1. Before Cain murdered his brother God told him that "sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it." Where is the divine will revealed identifying that murder is a sin?
  2. Speaking of Cain, how did he and Abel know about the sacrificial system? Why was what Cain offered rejected and Abel's offering accepted?
  3. On what revealed basis did God condemn all but 8 of the entire preflood world?
  4. On what revealed basis is Noah found to be righteous and blameless while God identified the earth as being "corrupt...and full of violence"? On what revealed basis can you determine what is considered "corrupt" such that God determined to destroy the earth?
  5. Joseph knew it was "wicked" and a "sin against God" for him to commit adultery. How did he come to this realization?


And God says why and to who, He first gave the command to keep the 7th day:


Deu 5:15 And REMEMBER that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: THEREFORE the LORD thy God commanded THEE to keep the sabbath day.


The sabbath day command was given only to Israel as a covenant sign and memorial of their being set free from slavery in Egypt.


Exodus 20:8-11 provides the original Sabbath command and explanation which God spoke for all Israel to hear. We keep the Sabbath as a weekly memorial of the creation event. Toward the end of their 40 years in the wilderness Moses provided this sort of renewal of vows reading of the Ten Commandment covenant in which the Sabbath is given additional meaning for this group to recall their freedom from slavery.

Again, the Sabbath origin is found in Genesis, "in the beginning." There were no Jews then. Only Adam, Eve, and their Creator. Since Adam and Eve were created on the sixth day then they would be with Jesus when He rested on the seventh. Do you really believe Jesus rested, blessed and made holy the seventh day and then when Adam and Eve asked Him about why He did this He responded, "Don't worry about that. That won't apply to you or anyone else for 2,000 years. Then I'll have someone reference back to this moment as the reason for why it is important later"?


Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of ISRAEL, saying, Verily my sabbaths YE shall keep: for it is a SIGN between ME and YOU throughout YOUR generations; that ye May know that I amthe LORD that doth sanctify YOU.


From my understanding of Scripture icy that the new covenant is only for the "people of Israel and the people of Judah" (Hebrews 8:7-13). If you're a Gentile like me then we become part of Israel by being grafted into Israel's tree (Romans 11:11-24).


3) Jesus of course kept the sabbath, it was still in effect until He died and rose again.
Not to mention that if He went on Sunday into the Orthodox Jewish synagogue to read from Isaiah, as the NT shows He did, there would’ve been no one there to listen.


I'm curious. Since Jesus didn't tell a single one of His twelve closest followers that the one command He said to "Remember" is the one He wanted everyone to forget (Luke 23:56), at what point did this overruling revelation come into effect? Jesus spoke the Ten Commandments for all the upwards of two million people in the wilderness to hear, and it was so awe-some that the people insisted that they preferred not to hear God's voice (Exodus 20:19). Yet supposedly this one command which was to be remembered (Psalm 111:4) was suddenly, selectively and secretively removed from the Ten Commandment covenant?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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Icyspark

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4) Saying that the disciples kept the sabbath when Jesus was newly dead, is irrelevant.

The revelation to Peter that the old covenant was ended - when God told Peter to eat animals that were unclean under the law, (and told Peter He had cleansed them) - hadn’t happened yet.


Hi chad kincham,

According to Hebrews 9:16, "where there is a testament (i.e. "will"), there must also of necessity be the death of the testator." Once the testator has died no one is allowed to annul or add to their testament/will (Galatians 3:15).

At what point would you like to suggest putting an end to allowing for adjustments to be added to the New Covenant? I'm saying at the death of Jesus.

Your allusion to Peter's vision in Acts 10 isn't embracing the point of the vision. Whilst in vision Peter saw a large sheet filled with unclean animals. A voice told Peter to "Get up. Kill and eat." Peter responded, "Surely not, Lord! I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." The voice told him not to call anything impure that God has made clean. This happened three times. Immediately following this three Gentiles (i.e. people Jews perceived as "unclean") came to his house calling out for Peter. While Peter was thinking about the vision, the Spirit told him to go with the men. During his time at Cornelius's home Peter said to them, "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean." The whole point of the vision had to do with Peter's perception of people, not food. Peter never once ate anything unclean, either in the vision or otherwise.

I'm not certain how appealing to this story releases one from acknowledging that Jesus didn't inform His disciples about the forthcoming ending of the Sabbath before His death?


5) and 6) Paul is found throughout Acts, preaching to the Jews in synagogues (not in churches) that Jesus is the Christ.
The only time the non-Christian Jews were in the synagogue for Paul to evangelize them, was on Saturdays.

Orthodox Jews go to synagogues. Christian Jews, such as those in Acts 2, go to churches, not synagogues - as in Acts 2 when people were added to the CHURCH.

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the CHURCH (not synagogue) daily such as should be saved.

Starting in Acts 13:13 you can read Paul’s entire sermon to the Jews, and it’s obvious he is preaching to them, and to gentile proselytes (gentiles that converted to Judaism - just as some do today) that Jesus is their Messiah.


Let me just repost item #6 from the opening post:

6. Gentiles Kept the Sabbath
Acts 13:42-45
So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.


On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.

Some people suggest that Paul was evangelizing to Jews on the Sabbath and what better way to do that then to meet them on the day they all were gathering together? But in this text we see that after witnessing to the Jews in the synagogue that Gentiles begged Paul to preach these words "to them the next Sabbath." So if the Sabbath had ceased as a requirement and blessing of God, if it was not part of the New Covenant, if it was only for the Jew, then Paul need not wait an entire week to minister to the needs of these pleading Gentiles. Why wait seven days when tomorrow would work just fine? After all, as some people believe, the first day of the week is supposedly "the Lord's day"—a day to be honored in remembrance of Jesus's resurrection—so why not preach to them on this newly preferred day? Paul does not take this golden opportunity to inform these Gentiles that the Sabbath is passé and that it is no longer necessary to remember Jesus as the Creator. Instead, as someone who unashamedly "follow the example of Christ," he honors their Sabbath-keeping request.

I don't believe your attempted rationalization makes sense in the context of the Gentiles begging Paul to preach to them "the next Sabbath." If Sunday was supposedly the next new thing, then Paul certainly shoulda, coulda, woulda taken that wonderful opportunity to inform these Gentiles that they should go ahead and meet the very next day.


7) Jesus says that when the son of perdition steps into the temple, those living in JUDEA should flee, and pray that it doesn’t happen on the sabbath.

Who lived in JUDEA when Jesus walked the earth with His apostles?

Jews.

Who rejected Jesus, and had Him crucified?

Jews in Judea.

What day did non Christian Jews still keep?

The sabbath.

Jesus says that the sabbath keeping Jews should pray they don’t have to flee from the Antichrist on their sabbath, when they aren’t allowed to travel.

This fact is not proof Jesus taught that the sabbath should be kept today.


Matthew 24:1, 2 is speaking in reference to the destruction of the temple which would eventually take place in 70 A.D. Since the temple was destroyed at that time where would you propose that the "standing in the holy place" transpires?

Why do you believe Jews aren't allowed to travel on the Sabbath?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hi ViaCrucis,

Yes, and I am a sinner too. However, in order to be a sinner you need to have the law that identifies you as such when you transgress it. The Ten Commandments are said law and that law contains the command to remember the Sabbath. If you believe--as some do--that the Ten Commandments are abolished, then you and I are not sinners. If we are not sinners, then we have no need of a Savior.

From my understanding of Scripture icy that the new covenant is only for the "people of Israel and the people of Judah" (Hebrews 8:7-13). If you're a Gentile like me then we become part of Israel by being grafted into Israel's tree (Romans 11:11-24).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Tell me, when Jesus was asked which was the greatest commandment, which of the ten commandments did He quote?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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prodromos

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God is all powerful and doesn't require rest. He is holy, so making a day holy for His singular purposes would be meaningless. Blessing a day for Himself would likewise be meaningless. So all this resting, blessing and making holy was not for Him. However, when Genesis 2 is viewed from the context that everything God is doing is ultimately for His human creation then it can be easily understood that God provided this every seventh day rest cycle from the beginning.
God 'resting' on the seventh day was prefiguring when Christ would rest in the tomb.
 
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Icyspark

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Tell me, when Jesus was asked which was the greatest commandment, which of the ten commandments did He quote?

-CryptoLutheran


Hi ViaCrucis,

I'm not sure how this relates to what I just said so please pardon me if I don't quite understand exactly what you're asking.

What do you think? If God were to say that the one thing He wants His creatures to do is love, do you suppose that humans would be able to correctly comprehend this without any further instruction? What about if God further breaks it down and says that this love should be for Himself and for our neighbors? Do you think that how humans express their "love"--if left in this vacuum of information--would be done the way God desired? Don't you think that if it were left nebulous like this that humans would tend to assume that maybe their neighbors were just those living in their neighborhood? Or maybe, just those living on their street? Or, perhaps just limited to those living on either side of them?

The Ten Commandment covenant further breaks down God's command to love, but still does so in a concise fashion. The first four commandments deal with our expression of love for God. Do you think that without God's help that humans would've all, collectively decided that they should not have any idols; that they should not misuse the Lord's name; have no other gods; and rest every seventh day?

All of God's commandments are based in love. In Deuteronomy 11:1 God says to "love the Lord your God and keep His requirements, His decrees, His laws and His commands always." Love is manifested in obedience to His revealed will. Jesus says, "If you love me, keep my commands." It's pretty simple, but it's not left for us to decide how we will reveal our love for Him.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hi ViaCrucis,

I'm not sure how this relates to what I just said so please pardon me if I don't quite understand exactly what you're asking.

What do you think? If God were to say that the one thing He wants His creatures to do is love, do you suppose that humans would be able to correctly comprehend this without any further instruction? What about if God further breaks it down and says that this love should be for Himself and for our neighbors? Do you think that how humans express their "love"--if left in this vacuum of information--would be done the way God desired? Don't you think that if it were left nebulous like this that humans would tend to assume that maybe their neighbors were just those living in their neighborhood? Or maybe, just those living on their street? Or, perhaps just limited to those living on either side of them?

The Ten Commandment covenant further breaks down God's command to love, but still does so in a concise fashion. The first four commandments deal with our expression of love for God. Do you think that without God's help that humans would've all, collectively decided that they should not have any idols; that they should not misuse the Lord's name; have no other gods; and rest every seventh day?

All of God's commandments are based in love. In Deuteronomy 11:1 God says to "love the Lord your God and keep His requirements, His decrees, His laws and His commands always." Love is manifested in obedience to His revealed will. Jesus says, "If you love me, keep my commands." It's pretty simple, but it's not left for us to decide how we will reveal our love for Him.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

I think my question was clear enough. Which of the ten commandments does Jesus say is the greatest commandment?

You know the answer to this.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Icyspark

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I think my question was clear enough. Which of the ten commandments does Jesus say is the greatest commandment?

You know the answer to this.

-CryptoLutheran


Hi ViaCrucis,

Well then, I think my answer was clear enough.

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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chad kincham

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point of the vision. Whilst in vision Peter saw a large sheet filled with unclean animals. A voice told Peter to "Get up. Kill and eat." Peter responded, "Surely not, Lord! I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." The voice told him not to call anything impure that God has made clean. This happened three times. Immediately following this three Gentiles (i.e. people Jews perceived as "unclean") came to his house calling out for Peter. While Peter was thinking about the vision, the Spirit told him to go with the men. During his time at Cornelius's home Peter said to them, "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean." The whole point of the vision had to do with Peter's perception of people, not food. Peter never once ate anything unclean, either in the vision or otherwise.

And you’re oblivious to why God telling Peter to eat formerly unclean animals because HE HAS CLEANSED THEM, made him realize that gentiles were no longer excluded from being in Gods covenant.

Peter realized that the only way formerly ceremonially unclean animals could now be clean, was that the old covenant was ended, and gentiles who were considered unclean because they ate pork, were no longer unclean.

And yes, laws of clean and unclean were purely ceremonial, as proven by God telling Noah that he could eat every kind of animal that existed.

As to your claim that Jesus would have told His disciples to instantly start keeping Sunday, you again fail to understand.

Neither God nor Jesus demanded change from Saturday to Sunday observance.

Because there is no required day to be kept at all in the two love commands, the apostles were free to decide later on to keep Sunday in honor of the day Jesus rose from the dead.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hi ViaCrucis,

Well then, I think my answer was clear enough.

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

You didn't give an answer. Which is fine, but we both know what the answer is.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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the apostles were free to decide later on to keep Sunday in honor of the day Jesus rose from the dead.

Bingo. Gathering together on Sunday does not stem from command, but out of the free choice of the apostles and the Church as a whole. It also made complete sense that in integrated churches of both Jews and Gentiles to gather for worship shortly after the Sabbath, which would have been the following day--Sunday. Which is why Roman sources, such as Pliny the Younger speaking of Christians, says that "they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing hymns to Christ as to a god" (Pliny the Younger, Letters, 10.96).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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chad kincham

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Hi ViaCrucis,

Yes, and I am a sinner too. However, in order to be a sinner you need to have the law that identifies you as such when you transgress it. The Ten Commandments are said law and that law contains the command to remember the Sabbath. If you believe--as some do--that the Ten Commandments are abolished, then you and I are not sinners. If we are not sinners, then we have no need of a Savior.

From my understanding of Scripture icy that the new covenant is only for the "people of Israel and the people of Judah" (Hebrews 8:7-13). If you're a Gentile like me then we become part of Israel by being grafted into Israel's tree (Romans 11:11-24).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The NT is clear that the ten commands have been replaced by the two love commands, which fulfills ALL the law, without a command to keep any days.

That’s because Jesus is our rest, and the ceremonial day of rest ended.

It’s not a hard concept, yet shadow keepers continue to act clueless about the fact that love does no harm to your neighbor, thus love fulfills all the law.

The ten commands were an external law kept out of fear of punishment.

You didn’t murder your neighbor because you love him, but because you would be stoned to death under the same law that Moses received.

It’s not a hard concept to understand there is a huge difference between the reason for keeping the two commands vs the old ten.

Say you have two families, the smith family and the Jones family.

In both families the son has a law given to him to mow the lawn.

You might equate both laws as being the same, because both call for the lawn to be mowed.

But then you find out mr smith told his son, mow the lawn every Saturday, or I’ll kill you by stoning you to death - but mr Jones told his son to mow the lawn because he loves his father.

The two love commands far exceed a mere ten on how well you treat your neighbor, and thus are far superior.

And keeping them is done for a superior reason than fear of punishment and death.
Hi ViaCrucis,

Yes, and I am a sinner too. However, in order to be a sinner you need to have the law that identifies you as such when you transgress it. The Ten Commandments are said law and that law contains the command to remember the Sabbath. If you believe--as some do--that the Ten Commandments are abolished, then you and I are not sinners. If we are not sinners, then we have no need of a Savior.

From my understanding of Scripture icy that the new covenant is only for the "people of Israel and the people of Judah" (Hebrews 8:7-13). If you're a Gentile like me then we become part of Israel by being grafted into Israel's tree (Romans 11:11-24).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

By your faulty logic that we must keep the ended ten commands because we are spiritually Israel, then we must keep the rest of ended covenant law, and sacrifice animals, also required under the same body of OT law.
 
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chad kincham

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Hi ViaCrucis,

Yes, and I am a sinner too. However, in order to be a sinner you need to have the law that identifies you as such when you transgress it. The Ten Commandments are said law and that law contains the command to remember the Sabbath. If you believe--as some do--that the Ten Commandments are abolished, then you and I are not sinners. If we are not sinners, then we have no need of a Savior.

From my understanding of Scripture icy that the new covenant is only for the "people of Israel and the people of Judah" (Hebrews 8:7-13). If you're a Gentile like me then we become part of Israel by being grafted into Israel's tree (Romans 11:11-24).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The NT is clear that the ten commands have been replaced by the two love commands, which fulfills ALL the law, without a command to keep any days.

That’s because Jesus is our rest, and the ceremonial day of rest ended.

It’s not a hard concept, yet shadow keepers continue to act clueless about the fact that love does no harm to your neighbor, thus love fulfills all the law.

The ten commands were an external law kept out of fear of punishment.

You didn’t murder your neighbor because you love him, but because you would be stoned to death under the same law that Moses received.

It’s not a hard concept to understand there is a huge difference between the reason for keeping the two commands vs the old ten.

Say you have two families, the smith family and the Jones family.

In both families the son has a law given to him to mow the lawn.

You might equate both laws as being the same, because both call for the lawn to be mowed.

But then you find out mr smith told his son, mow the lawn every Saturday, or I’ll kill you by stoning you to death - but mr Jones told his son to mow the lawn because he loves his father.

The two love commands far exceed a mere ten on how well you treat your neighbor, and thus are far superior.

And keeping them is done for a superior reason than fear of
Hi ViaCrucis,

Martin Luther gets it right when he affirms the ongoing continuity of the Ten Commandment covenant. He gets it wrong when he attempts to disembody the Sabbath from the unit of Ten, thus making his previous affirmation null and void since he is in reality only affirming the nine commandments. The Bible knows of no such fractured unit.

Of the Ten Commandments Paul calls them "holy, righteous and good" (Romans 7:7-12).

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Now quote the rest of Paul, the law is only still in effect for the ungodly and sinners, but no longer is in effect for Christians.

What shadow keepers don’t realize is, the law of Moses is not meant for a righteous person, but for the ungodly, for sinners, for murderers, etc.: because it exists to show the unsaved what sin IS.


1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a RIGHTEOUS man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for THE UNGODLY and for SINNERS , for UNHOLY and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,


1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


Christians are not ungodly anymore, but are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, thus we’ve died to the law.


Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have DIED TO THE LAW through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.


Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, AROUSED BY THE LAW, were at work in our members to bear fruit for DEATH.


Rom 7:6 But now we are RELEASED from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the NEW way of the SPIRIT and not in the OLD way of the written code.


For Christians only, (not the ungodly) Jesus nailed the law of Moses to His cross and took it out of our way:


Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


And the law of Moses was temporary until Christ came:


Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made (Jesus Christ), and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.


Gal 3:23 But BEFORE faith came, we were KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.


Gal 3:24 Wherefore THE LAW was our SCHOOLMASTER to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


Gal 3:25 But AFTER that faith is come, we are NO LONGER under a schoolmaster.


Christians have the fruit of the spirit, instead of the letter of the law, which is why for us THERE IS NO LAW, of Moses for us:


Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such THERE IS NO LAW.


Paul comes right out and says, he is not under the law of Moses, but IS under the law of Christ ( the law of love aka the two love commands).


1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.


1Co 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though NOT being myself UNDER THE LAW) that I might win those under the law.


1Co 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but UNDER the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.


There is a new covenant, that took effect at His death, as it was Jesus’ last will and Testament, and a blood covenant, and it is also with the House of Israel, meaning national Israel, not so-called spirit Israel.


(BTW the Bible doesn’t say that Christians are spiritual Jews, it says that genetic Jews are no longer Jews because of their national heritage, but they must be spiritually circumcised.


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:


Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Proof of that is Romans 11 which shows there is a distinction between national Jews, and gentiles who believe, because gentiles have to be grafted into the new covenant with the House of Israel, by faith.


If Christians were spiritual Jews, they would not need grafted into the covenant with the House of Israel, per Romans 11.


However, we ARE said to be the seed of Abraham, and heirs to the promise, but Abraham was a Hebrew, not a Jew).
 
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chad kincham

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Hi ViaCrucis,

Yes, and I am a sinner too. However, in order to be a sinner you need to have the law that identifies you as such when you transgress it. The Ten Commandments are said law and that law contains the command to remember the Sabbath. If you believe--as some do--that the Ten Commandments are abolished, then you and I are not sinners. If we are not sinners, then we have no need of a Savior.

From my understanding of Scripture icy that the new covenant is only for the "people of Israel and the people of Judah" (Hebrews 8:7-13). If you're a Gentile like me then we become part of Israel by being grafted into Israel's tree (Romans 11:11-24).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The NT is clear that the ten commands have been replaced by the two love commands, which fulfills ALL the law, without a command to keep any days.

That’s because Jesus is our rest, and the ceremonial day of rest ended.

It’s not a hard concept, yet shadow keepers continue to act clueless about the fact that love does no harm to your neighbor, thus love fulfills all the law.

The ten commands were an external law kept out of fear of punishment.

You didn’t murder your neighbor because you love him, but because you would be stoned to death under the same law that Moses received.

It’s not a hard concept to understand there is a huge difference between the reason for keeping the two commands vs the old ten.

Say you have two families, the smith family and the Jones family.

In both families the son has a law given to him to mow the lawn.

You might equate both laws as being the same, because both call for the lawn to be mowed.

But then you find out mr smith told his son, mow the lawn every Saturday, or I’ll kill you by stoning you to death - but mr Jones told his son to mow the lawn because he loves his father.

The two love commands far exceed a mere ten on how well you treat your neighbor, and thus are far superior.

And keeping them is done for a superior reason than fear of
Hi ViaCrucis,

Martin Luther gets it right when he affirms the ongoing continuity of the Ten Commandment covenant. He gets it wrong when he attempts to disembody the Sabbath from the unit of Ten, thus making his previous affirmation null and void since he is in reality only affirming the nine commandments. The Bible knows of no such fractured unit.

Of the Ten Commandments Paul calls them "holy, righteous and good" (Romans 7:7-12).

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Now quote the rest of Paul, the law is n
 
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chad kincham

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Hi ViaCrucis,

Yes, and I am a sinner too. However, in order to be a sinner you need to have the law that identifies you as such when you transgress it. The Ten Commandments are said law and that law contains the command to remember the Sabbath. If you believe--as some do--that the Ten Commandments are abolished, then you and I are not sinners. If we are not sinners, then we have no need of a Savior.

From my understanding of Scripture icy that the new covenant is only for the "people of Israel and the people of Judah" (Hebrews 8:7-13). If you're a Gentile like me then we become part of Israel by being grafted into Israel's tree (Romans 11:11-24).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The NT is clear that the ten commands have been replaced by the two love commands, which fulfills ALL the law, without a command to keep any days.

That’s because Jesus is our rest, and the ceremonial day of rest ended.

It’s not a hard concept, yet shadow keepers continue to act clueless about the fact that love does no harm to your neighbor, thus love fulfills all the law.

The ten commands were an external law kept out of fear of punishment.

You didn’t murder your neighbor because you love him, but because you would be stoned to death under the same law that Moses received.

It’s not a hard concept to understand there is a huge difference between the reason for keeping the two commands vs the old ten.

Say you have two families, the smith family and the Jones family.

In both families the son has a law given to him to mow the lawn.

You might equate both laws as being the same, because both call for the lawn to be mowed.

But then you find out mr smith told his son, mow the lawn every Saturday, or I’ll kill you by stoning you to death - but mr Jones told his son to mow the lawn because he loves his father.

The two love commands far exceed a mere ten on how well you treat your neighbor, and thus are far superior.

And keeping them is done for a superior reason than fear of
Hi ViaCrucis,

Martin Luther gets it right when he affirms the ongoing continuity of the Ten Commandment covenant. He gets it wrong when he attempts to disembody the Sabbath from the unit of Ten, thus making his previous affirmation null and void since he is in reality only affirming the nine commandments. The Bible knows of no such fractured unit.

Of the Ten Commandments Paul calls them "holy, righteous and good" (Romans 7:7-12).

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Now quote the rest of Paul, the law is n
 
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Icyspark

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And you’re oblivious to why God telling Peter to eat formerly unclean animals because HE HAS CLEANSED THEM, made him realize that gentiles were no longer excluded from being in Gods covenant.

Peter realized that the only way formerly ceremonially unclean animals could now be clean, was that the old covenant was ended, and gentiles who were considered unclean because they ate pork, were no longer unclean.

And yes, laws of clean and unclean were purely ceremonial, as proven by God telling Noah that he could eat every kind of animal that existed.


Hi chad kincham,

I'm pretty sure I'm simply going with the interpretation of the vision as supplied by the receiver of the vision. Very clearly Peter states, "But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean." To go beyond what the inspired apostle has to say about what the vision meant and insist that the symbolism means something else is placing yourself above and outside what the Scriptures reveal.


As to your claim that Jesus would have told His disciples to instantly start keeping Sunday, you again fail to understand.


The evidence indicates that the disciples knew nothing of any change in the Ten Commandment covenant--especially as regarding any position of forgetting the command to "remember." On the contrary, the example of the 11 apostles; of Paul; and of Gentiles all indicate the continuity and perpetuity of what God identifies as "My holy day."


Neither God nor Jesus demanded change from Saturday to Sunday observance.

Because there is no required day to be kept at all in the two love commands, the apostles were free to decide later on to keep Sunday in honor of the day Jesus rose from the dead.


As regards this supposition that "the apostles were free to decide later on to keep Sunday in honor of the day Jesus rose from the dead," I'd say this is something the apostles never did. There is no evidence in Scripture to arrive at such a conclusion. There are actually only eight references to the first day of the week in all of the New Testament. The first six references are merely historical mentions regarding the resurrection. Although each of the Gospels were written years after the cross, each one of them still refers to Sunday using its numeric designation in relation to the approach of the Sabbath.

Sunday observance as a day of supposedly honoring Christ's resurrection didn't begin with the apostles. And why would anyone wish to superimpose their own weekly celebration of something which Christ never enjoined or endorsed? Don't you suppose that if Christ had desired His resurrection to be honored that He would've requested it? Oh wait! Actually He did. We participate in His resurrection when we are baptized.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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prodromos

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Bingo. Gathering together on Sunday does not stem from command, but out of the free choice of the apostles and the Church as a whole. It also made complete sense that in integrated churches of both Jews and Gentiles to gather for worship shortly after the Sabbath, which would have been the following day--Sunday. Which is why Roman sources, such as Pliny the Younger speaking of Christians, says that "they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing hymns to Christ as to a god" (Pliny the Younger, Letters, 10.96).

-CryptoLutheran
And Christians were doing this despite having to go and work for the rest of the day afterwards, Sunday being a normal working day otherwise. Christians could have easily been seen as a Jewish sect and enjoyed the various benefits and entitlements that the Jews enjoyed, particularly not having to work on the Sabbath but the fact is they set themselves apart from the Jews who continued to reject Christ, and were willing to accept hardship and persecution as a result.
 
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chad kincham

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Hi ViaCrucis,

Yes, and I am a sinner too. However, in order to be a sinner you need to have the law that identifies you as such when you transgress it. The Ten Commandments are said law and that law contains the command to remember the Sabbath. If you believe--as some do--that the Ten Commandments are abolished, then you and I are not sinners. If we are not sinners, then we have no need of a Savior.

From my understanding of Scripture icy that the new covenant is only for the "people of Israel and the people of Judah" (Hebrews 8:7-13). If you're a Gentile like me then we become part of Israel by being grafted into Israel's tree (Romans 11:11-24).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The NT is clear that the ten commands have been replaced by the two love commands, which fulfills ALL the law, without a command to keep any days.

That’s because Jesus is our rest, and the ceremonial day of rest ended.

It’s not a hard concept, yet shadow keepers continue to act clueless about the fact that love does no harm to your neighbor, thus love fulfills all the law.

The ten commands were an external law kept out of fear of punishment.

You didn’t murder your neighbor because you love him, but because you would be stoned to death under the same law that Moses received.

It’s not a hard concept to understand there is a huge difference between the reason for keeping the two commands vs the old ten.

Say you have two families, the smith family and the Jones family.

In both families the son has a law given to him to mow the lawn.

You might equate both laws as being the same, because both call for the lawn to be mowed.

But then you find out mr smith told his son, mow the lawn every Saturday, or I’ll kill you by stoning you to death - but mr Jones told his son to mow the lawn because he loves his father.

The two love commands far exceed a mere ten on how well you treat your neighbor, and thus are far superior.

And keeping them is done for a superior reason than fear of
Hi ViaCrucis,

Martin Luther gets it right when he affirms the ongoing continuity of the Ten Commandment covenant. He gets it wrong when he attempts to disembody the Sabbath from the unit of Ten, thus making his previous affirmation null and void since he is in reality only affirming the nine commandments. The Bible knows of no such fractured unit.

Of the Ten Commandments Paul calls them "holy, righteous and good" (Romans 7:7-12).

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
The apostle John provides a succinct definition of sin, "Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God," and Paul says, "where there is no law there is no transgression." The law was not codified in written form, but it is apparent that it had been revealed.

The Sabbath is first revealed in Genesis 2:1-3


And yet Moses said no one, not their fathers, had the law given to him on the mountain

It’s obvious no one was ever commanded to keep the sabbath until Israel was given it as a covenant sign, and to remember God set them free from Egyptian slavery.
 
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chad kincham

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Hi ViaCrucis,

Yes, and I am a sinner too. However, in order to be a sinner you need to have the law that identifies you as such when you transgress it. The Ten Commandments are said law and that law contains the command to remember the Sabbath. If you believe--as some do--that the Ten Commandments are abolished, then you and I are not sinners. If we are not sinners, then we have no need of a Savior.

From my understanding of Scripture icy that the new covenant is only for the "people of Israel and the people of Judah" (Hebrews 8:7-13). If you're a Gentile like me then we become part of Israel by being grafted into Israel's tree (Romans 11:11-24).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The NT is clear that the ten commands have been replaced by the two love commands, which fulfills ALL the law, without a command to keep any days.

That’s because Jesus is our rest, and the ceremonial day of rest ended.

It’s not a hard concept, yet shadow keepers continue to act clueless about the fact that love does no harm to your neighbor, thus love fulfills all the law.

The ten commands were an external law kept out of fear of punishment.

You didn’t murder your neighbor because you love him, but because you would be stoned to death under the same law that Moses received.

It’s not a hard concept to understand there is a huge difference between the reason for keeping the two commands vs the old ten.

Say you have two families, the smith family and the Jones family.

In both families the son has a law given to him to mow the lawn.

You might equate both laws as being the same, because both call for the lawn to be mowed.

But then you find out mr smith told his son, mow the lawn every Saturday, or I’ll kill you by stoning you to death - but mr Jones told his son to mow the lawn because he loves his father.

The two love commands far exceed a mere ten on how well you treat your neighbor, and thus are far superior.

And keeping them is done for a superior reason than fear of
Hi ViaCrucis,

Martin Luther gets it right when he affirms the ongoing continuity of the Ten Commandment covenant. He gets it wrong when he attempts to disembody the Sabbath from the unit of Ten, thus making his previous affirmation null and void since he is in reality only affirming the nine commandments. The Bible knows of no such fractured unit.

Of the Ten Commandments Paul calls them "holy, righteous and good" (Romans 7:7-12).

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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HIM

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I think my question was clear enough. Which of the ten commandments does Jesus say is the greatest commandment?

You know the answer to this.

-CryptoLutheran
The NT is clear that the ten commands have been replaced by the two love commands, which fulfills ALL the law, without a command to keep any days.
Matt 22:40 On these two commandments hang (depend) all the law and the prophets.

Hang my friends, not do away or replace.
 
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