Conversion therapy

[Carl Emerson]

Kind of. The lack of coercion is key, but also the not engaging in trying to change the person. So, for example, deliverance ministry aimed at changing someone's sexuality or gender identity (even with the person's consent) would generally fall into this kind of category.

So it is more than a matter of consent. The law plans to ban particular spiritual ministries.

 

[Paidiske]

So it is more than a matter of consent. The law plans to ban particular spiritual ministries.

No. The law plans to ban harmful practices. Conversion therapy is not a valid ministry.

 

[Carl Emerson]

No. The law plans to ban harmful practices. Conversion therapy is not a valid ministry.

I wasn't referring to 'Conversion therapy' (whatever that is) I was responding to your mentioning deliverance ministry which is well established in many traditional churches.

 

[Paidiske]

I wasn't referring to 'Conversion therapy' (whatever that is) I was responding to your mentioning deliverance ministry which is well established in many traditional churches.

The question is what you're intending to do. If someone engages in "deliverance ministry" in an attempt to change someone's sexuality or gender identity, that has been shown to be ineffective and harmful, and would be covered under the umbrella term, "conversion therapy."

Laws against conversion therapy don't impact on deliverance ministry unless it's being misused in this way.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So are you suggesting that the church is banned from dealing with any spiritual component that might be involved?

 

[Paidiske]

So are you suggesting that the church is banned from dealing with any spiritual component that might be involved?

That question probably needs to be a bit more nuanced, but I think the suggestion that the church should be "dealing with" someone's sexuality or gender identity is somewhere close to the line.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

We are at election time and the Govt has announced intention to ban 'Converson Therapy' for those who wish to transition back to biological gender. (Forgive me if I use the wrong terminology, I am no expert.)

What I would like to know is if this therapy is Christian based. (I suspect not)

I would also like to know if such a ban might prohibit legitimate ministries in the church from assisting such a transition.

We in NewZealand have a Govt. trying to lead the world in 'progressive legislation'

Thanks for your help.

In all my years in church, I have never heard of anything like conversion therapy, in my opinion it is just another way to strengthen the ungodly practice of homosexuality, and weaken the church. The people who espouse it think it happens but in reality there are few, if any, ministries that do anything similar.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK it reminds me of the Three Self Church in China which have Govt cameras installed and from memory does not allow baptisms.

I guess churches should be concerned that the law wants to define what is spiritual and what is not. This is the very development that drove the church underground in China.

 

[Paidiske]

There's a very useful report, called Preventing Harm, Promoting Justice which looked at these issues in Australia. While not NZ, it might be helpful background reading for anyone wanting to come to grips with what the issues are.

 

[mindlight]

We are at election time and the Govt has announced intention to ban 'Converson Therapy' for those who wish to transition back to biological gender. (Forgive me if I use the wrong terminology, I am no expert.)

What I would like to know is if this therapy is Christian based. (I suspect not)

I would also like to know if such a ban might prohibit legitimate ministries in the church from assisting such a transition.

We in NewZealand have a Govt. trying to lead the world in 'progressive legislation'

Thanks for your help.

Ardens current NZ government advocates abortion till birth!. So whatever they are saying on anything would probably prompt me to support the opposite point of view.

There is a difference between biological confusion and psychosomatic confusion over gender identity and / or sexuality. Short of rare occasional miracles biological changes are the remit of medicine. The church can help a person deal with their own reality in a righteous way and should do I think eg. encouraging celibacy.

If someone is trying to "pray away the gay" in themselves then that is their choice and maybe the church can help them with that or not but a simple ban on that help seems wrong. After all a great many people will help them come out the other way so it seems to lack integrity to prohibit gay - to hetro movement also. To say that a hetro - to gay shift is not damaging ignores the mental health issues, broken marriages and families that are often left in the wake of such shifts

 

[chilehed]

What I would like to know is if this therapy is Christian based. (I suspect not)

I would also like to know if such a ban might prohibit legitimate ministries in the church from assisting such a transition.

"Conversion therapy" is an ambiguous term that could be used to describe a number of different things that may or may not have arisen from a Christian worldview.

Whether it's illegal or not likewise depends on the legal definition in your country. You'll need to carefully study the law to see if it bans, for example, counseling from a licensed psycotherapist or tbe existence of groups such as Courage; I suggest asking a lawyer.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There's a very useful report, called Preventing Harm, Promoting Justice which looked at these issues in Australia. While not NZ, it might be helpful background reading for anyone wanting to come to grips with what the issues are.

Thanks for that.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ardens current NZ government advocates abortion till birth!.

Yes, our 'Darling' Prime Minister decided - if you don't like the baby for any reason you just leave it to die on the table.

Passed by stealth when Covid hit and the public were not paying attention.

 

[dqhall]

We are at election time and the Govt has announced intention to ban 'Converson Therapy' for those who wish to transition back to biological gender. (Forgive me if I use the wrong terminology, I am no expert.)

What I would like to know is if this therapy is Christian based. (I suspect not)

I would also like to know if such a ban might prohibit legitimate ministries in the church from assisting such a transition.

We in NewZealand have a Govt. trying to lead the world in 'progressive legislation'

Thanks for your help.

The LGBT people have lobbied against anyone trying to convert them to heterosexuality or teaching that marriage should only be between a man and a woman. On the other hand they want to be allowed to teach and promote their LGBT ways and hold events. That is not fair as homosexuals are more likely to suffer mental illness, depression and suicide. They should not teach homosexuality while restricting those who teach heterosexuality.

 

[hedrick]

There's a very useful report, called Preventing Harm, Promoting Justice which looked at these issues in Australia. While not NZ, it might be helpful background reading for anyone wanting to come to grips with what the issues are.

The stories in this report suggest that it’s not just conversion therapy that is harmful, but the attitudes of conservative religious communities. That’s going to be impossible to deal with legally in countries with a commitment to freedom of belief.

 

[Paidiske]

The stories in this report suggest that it’s not just conversion therapy that is harmful, but the attitudes of conservative religious communities. That’s going to be impossible to deal with legally in countries with a commitment to freedom of belief.

That is true. However, it's not impossible to deal with conversion therapy as such, which is a reasonable starting point.

As I said in our synod debate when this came up, we shouldn't need the government to make it illegal for us to harm people, but when they do, we should pay attention!

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

Gender confused people are disturbed from WITHIN. Nothing can touch the inner disturbance, save Jesus Christ. I pity the person who tries to interfere with that touch.

 

[JacksBratt]

There are Christian groups who engage in varieties of conversion therapy. They have been shown to be both ineffective and deeply harmful. (That is not the same thing as appropriate medical support for someone de-transitioning).

I support such a ban.

Would it not be better to research and develop a method that is not harmful. I mean really, if you look at it.. The individual is either male or female in every way except what is in their mind. If you were to see them on a autopsy table.. you would see, in all respects, male or female.

So, if all of this is in their mind.. Is their not a way to safely, methodically, lovingly help them to overcome their mental issues without harm?

 

[Quartermaine]

OK my OP asked however, if the proposed legislation will ban churches from assisting those who want to return to their birth gender. I have Christian friends who are deeply greived and regret assisting their daughter to change sex - if all parties agree to reverse the journey, will the church under the new law be banned from assisting ?

how old is their daughter and how does she feel?

Her willingness has to be established and it has to be clear that she isn't being pushed or coerced into agreeing.

 

[Quartermaine]

So if the church has a gay convert that wanted to transision back to their birth gender, it would be illegal for the church to support that process ?

being gay is not the same thing as being transsexual

homosexuality doesn't alter gender or gender identity