LDS The Claim

[Rescued One]

"The Claim Only two Christian churches really have a leg to stand on when it comes to claiming the authority to act in God’s name, the Catholic church who claims to have had the authority all along since the days of Peter the chief Apostle, and the Latter-day Saints, who claim that God, and Christ himself returned to earth and restored Christ’s ancient Church, complete with the authority to act in God’s name, to the prophet Joseph Smith. If the Catholic church has the priesthood then by definition all other churches have no rights to the priesthood, since they left the only church that had the authority from God to act in his name. All differences of doctrinal opinion aside, that is pretty clear. If the Lord had to come back to earth and restore his Church and his ancient authority once again through Joseph Smith, then that means the Catholic church lost their authority to act in God’s name long, long ago. Otherwise the Lord wouldn’t have had to come back to give it to us again."
- Kelly Merrill
The Priesthood vs. the Power of the Priesthood | Gospelstudy.us

Choose:
Catholic or Mormon

And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.

And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the harlot of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the harlot who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great harlot whom I saw.
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14: 9 - 12
1 Nephi 14

 

[chevyontheriver]

"The Claim Only two Christian churches really have a leg to stand on when it comes to claiming the authority to act in God’s name, the Catholic church who claims to have had the authority all along since the days of Peter the chief Apostle, and the Latter-day Saints, who claim that God, and Christ himself returned to earth and restored Christ’s ancient Church, complete with the authority to act in God’s name, to the prophet Joseph Smith. If the Catholic church has the priesthood then by definition all other churches have no rights to the priesthood, since they left the only church that had the authority from God to act in his name. All differences of doctrinal opinion aside, that is pretty clear. If the Lord had to come back to earth and restore his Church and his ancient authority once again through Joseph Smith, then that means the Catholic church lost their authority to act in God’s name long, long ago. Otherwise the Lord wouldn’t have had to come back to give it to us again."
- Kelly Merrill
The Priesthood vs. the Power of the Priesthood | Gospelstudy.us

Choose:
Catholic or Mormon

And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.

And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the harlot of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the harlot who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great harlot whom I saw.
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14: 9 - 12
1 Nephi 14

The Catholics recognize the Orthodox as having a leg to stand on. They have a continuing authority as well. So it's not quite so binary. But the issue of authority actually does matter. If the Mormons have it the Catholics don't. If the Catholics have it the Mormons don't. At least that is binary, even if the Orthodox share some authority with the Catholics.

The Mormon claim relies on a total apostasy in the early Church. And their claim is subject to historical analysis. Which is where it falls flat. Without that total apostasy the claim of recovery of the authority lost in that total apostasy is moot and the Mormon claims fall flat. But their reasoning, in the Merrill quote at least, is that since Joseph Smith is the prophet of restored Christianity all earlier Christianity has to have been apostate and without any authority. That's a little backwards. It's a historical thing. There was no great and total apostasy. The very best a historian could say was that there were gradual changes over centuries and centuries. They would then have to see if those changes were proper developments or improper deviations. In either case the great and total and almost immediate apostasy didn't happen. So the Mormon narrative is flawed.

This is all about authority. One could look at baptism separately, where Catholics recognize the baptism of almost every kind of Protestant, but not that of the Mormons. Or one could look at the theology of God, where the Trinitarian belief of most Christians was hammered out before, during, and after Nicea. As opposed to the novel ideas of the Mormon deities. Those are separate approaches. For this one, about authority, the Mormon claim requires an early total apostasy. And historically there isn't one.

 

[He is the way]

The Catholics recognize the Orthodox as having a leg to stand on. They have a continuing authority as well. So it's not quite so binary. But the issue of authority actually does matter. If the Mormons have it the Catholics don't. If the Catholics have it the Mormons don't. At least that is binary, even if the Orthodox share some authority with the Catholics.

The Mormon claim relies on a total apostasy in the early Church. And their claim is subject to historical analysis. Which is where it falls flat. Without that total apostasy the claim of recovery of the authority lost in that total apostasy is moot and the Mormon claims fall flat. But their reasoning, in the Merrill quote at least, is that since Joseph Smith is the prophet of restored Christianity all earlier Christianity has to have been apostate and without any authority. That's a little backwards. It's a historical thing. There was no great and total apostasy. The very best a historian could say was that there were gradual changes over centuries and centuries. They would then have to see if those changes were proper developments or improper deviations. In either case the great and total and almost immediate apostasy didn't happen. So the Mormon narrative is flawed.

This is all about authority. One could look at baptism separately, where Catholics recognize the baptism of almost every kind of Protestant, but not that of the Mormons. Or one could look at the theology of God, where the Trinitarian belief of most Christians was hammered out before, during, and after Nicea. As opposed to the novel ideas of the Mormon deities. Those are separate approaches. For this one, about authority, the Mormon claim requires an early total apostasy. And historically there isn't one.

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:1 - 7)

1 THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[chevyontheriver]

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:1 - 7)

1 THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

And your point is?

 

[He is the way]

And your point is?

The point is that the power of the priesthood won't be had by all in the latter days.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The point is that the power of the priesthood won't be had by all in the latter days.

Well of course it won't. There will be a falling away. Priests will fall away. So will bishops. Even cardinals will be against cardinals as was told to us at Akita. A remnant will endure but many will not. No surprise.

The expected falling away will happen. It hasn't happened historically, at least never complete enough to satisfy the requirement of the great apostasy the LDS need to have happened to legitimize their existence.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:1 - 7)

1 THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

That is still future friend.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The point is that the power of the priesthood won't be had by all in the latter days.

Based on Hebrews only Jesus has the higher Priesthood.
Based on Peter all Christians have a Priesthood, thus it can not get lost.

 

[dzheremi]

Choose:
Catholic or Mormon

 

[He is the way]

Well of course it won't. There will be a falling away. Priests will fall away. So will bishops. Even cardinals will be against cardinals as was told to us at Akita. A remnant will endure but many will not. No surprise.

The expected falling away will happen. It hasn't happened historically, at least never complete enough to satisfy the requirement of the great apostasy the LDS need to have happened to legitimize their existence.

Many churches didn't have any priesthood linage, therefore there was no transfer of the priesthood.

 

[Rescued One]

Apparently Joseph Smith had limited knowledge of church history!

 

[Rescued One]

Many churches didn't have any priesthood linage, therefore there was no transfer of the priesthood.

lineage

 

[He is the way]

lineage

I can trace my priesthood line of authority back to Jesus Christ. The priesthood is conferred on another person by someone holding the keys to that priesthood authority from God.

 

[Rescued One]

I can trace my priesthood authority back to Jesus Christ. The priesthood is conferred on another person by someone holding the keys to that priesthood authority from God.

That's a Mormon myth.

 

[TexFire316]

There is only one book needed. It's been around for thousands of years. Originally an 'oral only' book. Now, in written form, the best selling book of all time. The written Word of God, the Bible.

Forsake religion which can not save, embrace the Father, Who already has paid the price of Salvation. So, what are you waiting for? Read it.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Many churches didn't have any priesthood linage, therefore there was no transfer of the priesthood.

The Orthodox have that lineage. The Catholics have that lineage. Others you could argue about. Some definitely do not have it, do not claim it, and would not want it. There is historical recorded succession among the Catholics and Orthodox all the way from the apostles who received it from from Jesus Christ. Who were the LDS bishops in 500 AD, in 900 AD, in 1300 AD, in 1800 AD?

 

[chevyontheriver]

I can trace my priesthood line of authority back to Jesus Christ. The priesthood is conferred on another person by someone holding the keys to that priesthood authority from God.

How many centuries does that go back?

 

[He is the way]

That's a Mormon myth.

Is it a Bible myth also?

 

[He is the way]

The Orthodox have that lineage. The Catholics have that lineage. Others you could argue about. Some definitely do not have it, do not claim it, and would not want it. There is historical recorded succession among the Catholics and Orthodox all the way from the apostles who received it from from Jesus Christ. Who were the LDS bishops in 500 AD, in 900 AD, in 1300 AD, in 1800 AD?

Yes they deny the power thereof.

 

[He is the way]

How many centuries does that go back?

To when the gospel was restored to the earth by Jesus Christ.