Witchcraft 101

[Occams Barber]

So God is using an atheist to keep me on the right track !!

Someone's got to stop you straying from the flock Carl.

Now - if I can only cure you of quoting vague and unnecessary Bible verses by the pagefull, my work here is done.

OB

 

[Carl Emerson]

Someone's got to stop you straying from the flock Carl.

Now - if I can only cure you of quoting vague and unnecessary Bible verses by the pagefull, my work here is done.

OB

Well that is one thing I have never done - I leave the cut/paste war to others...

 

[tall73]

Here are some texts, perhaps not a page full. Some have been referenced earlier.

Do all Christians have this special powerof detection or is it limited to a special few?

I Corinthians 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Like @Hans Blaster I also thought the 'familial spirit' you were referring to was something outside of the boundaries of Christianity.

Leviticus 19:31 ‘Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.

You said something similar when referring to Egyptian gods in an earlier post (post #121). Be careful with your terminology - you can create the impression that you believe in the existence of gods/powers outside of Christianity. I think there's a Commandment about that.

OB

Deuteronomy 32:16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God,
To gods they did not know,
To new gods, new arrivals
That your fathers did not fear.
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you.

I Corinthians 10:19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?

 

[Occams Barber]

Here are some texts, perhaps not a page full. Some have been referenced earlier.




I Corinthians 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.



Leviticus 19:31 ‘Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.



Deuteronomy 32:16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God,
To gods they did not know,
To new gods, new arrivals
That your fathers did not fear.
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you.

I Corinthians 10:19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?

Oops - accidental click.
OB

 

[Occams Barber]

Here are some texts, perhaps not a page full. Some have been referenced earlier.




I Corinthians 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.



Leviticus 19:31 ‘Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.



Deuteronomy 32:16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God,
To gods they did not know,
To new gods, new arrivals
That your fathers did not fear.
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you.

I Corinthians 10:19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?

I'm giving you a 'C+' for length but an 'A' for relevance,


In post #124 @ViaCrucis explained the foreign god thing in a way that made some sense - at least to me as an atheist.

The post is longish but I think this quote is a fair summary:

That's the historic Christian position.

Not that the Egyptian Osirus or Anubis or Ra et al are real, but they are false--they don't exist. And the worship of these is false spirituality, false religion; the devil's role is through trickery, lies, and deceit. Not that he has himself god-like powers.

Having said this, I have met a number of Christians who have tried to argue that the gods of various pantheons are, actually real, and that each one corresponds to an actual demon, and that said demons have actual, real power. But this seems to be a very modern heresy.

Using ViaCrucis' explanation, the problem seems to be believing in illusions promoted by the devil/demons. If I can extend his argument to include 'magick', the occult, ouija boards, spell candles etc. they don't actually exist as forces of evil. Their only power lies in people believing they exist.

OB

 

[Hans Blaster]

Of course - but the two matters are not in contradiction.

On the one hand God is three in One and from Him alone proceeds all power and authority.

On the other hand angelic creatures He has made are in rebellion and are misusing the powers they have been given.

They even go as far as to set themselves up as gods in His place...

I thought this was pretty basic.

So other religions are real, but the "real supernatural" effects they exhibit are demons? (I think those are the fallen angels.)

I guess I always assumed that referring to "false gods" was to "gods that do not really exists (i.e., their existance if false)" rather than "false" as in the "wrong gods".

I never put any credence in these curses and spirits. The claims of such things seem to me to be in conflict with the doctrine of the chuch.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So other religions are real, but the "real supernatural" effects they exhibit are demons? (I think those are the fallen angels.)

I guess I always assumed that referring to "false gods" was to "gods that do not really exists (i.e., their existance if false)" rather than "false" as in the "wrong gods".

I never put any credence in these curses and spirits. The claims of such things seem to me to be in conflict with the doctrine of the chuch.

If you are an atheist why are the doctrines of the church a credible reference?

 

[tall73]

It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

Revelation seems to allude to the Genesis account of the serpent.

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

 

[tall73]

In the 2nd Temple period of Judaism there developed the idea that the false gods of the nations were "demons", evil spirits. We can see a bit of this, for example, in the word Belial, which is a corruption of the various ba'als of Semitic paganism from the Levant, such as the Akkadian Ba'al Hadad, or the Phoenician Ba'al Hammon. Where Belial had become an alternative name for Satan. While post-2nd Temple Judaism, under the Rabbinate ceased to believe in the idea of fallen angels, and of a devil figure, the idea was obviously preserved in Christianity.

It appears to be earlier than the second-temple period.

Leviticus 17:7 They shall no more offer their sacrifices to demons, after whom they have played the harlot. This shall be a statute forever for them throughout their generations.

The referenced entity appears to be a goat-like demon.

Deuteronomy also references demons:

Deuteronomy 32:16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God,
To gods they did not know,
To new gods, new arrivals
That your fathers did not fear.
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you.

 

[Occams Barber]

It appears to be earlier than the second-temple period.

Leviticus 17:7 They shall no more offer their sacrifices to demons, after whom they have played the harlot. This shall be a statute forever for them throughout their generations.

The referenced entity appears to be a goat-like demon.

Deuteronomy also references demons:

Deuteronomy 32:16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God,
To gods they did not know,
To new gods, new arrivals
That your fathers did not fear.
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful,
And have forgotten the God who fathered you.

Do you have any idea how thoroughly medieval this all sounds to an outsider?

OB

 

[tall73]

2 Chronicles, references the same goat demon concept in connection with the golden calves of Jeroboam. These calves recalled the one made by Aaron during the time at Sinai.

2 Chronicles:14 For the Levites left their common-lands and their possessions and came to Judah and Jerusalem, for Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them from serving as priests to the Lord. 15 Then he appointed for himself priests for the high places, for the demons, and the calf idols which he had made.

Kings 12: 28 Therefore the king asked advice, made two calves of gold, and said to the people, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, O Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt!” 29 And he set up one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan.

Exodus 32:1 Now when the people saw that Moses delayed coming down from the mountain, the people gathered together to Aaron, and said to him, “Come, make us a]">[a]gods that shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.” 2 And Aaron said to them, “Break off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people broke off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. 4 And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf. Then they said, “This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!” 5 So when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow is a feast to the Lord.” 6 Then they rose early on the next day, offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’

 

[tall73]

Do you have any idea how thoroughly medieval this all sounds to an outsider?

OB

Sure.

I am posting this so you can know that the Scriptures speak of it and the other poster was not making it up.

I do not expect someone who does not share that faith to accept it.

 

[tall73]

In other words, spiritual delusion--not actual manifest power of any kind--is the work of the devils; the gods of the nations are not real, and they have no power; but the devil is a liar and so it is delusion which leads men away from the truth of the one God through superstition.

While deception is certainly a key part, it still appears that Satan does have some power:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

[Occams Barber]

Sure.

I am posting this so you can know that the Scriptures speak of it and the other poster was not making it up.

I do not expect someone who does not share that faith to accept it.

Sorry Tall. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. It's just that there are times when I find the darkness implicit in Christianity a little overwhelming.

While I don't share your faith, I do see VCs explanation as one which, were I Christian, would be appealing since it sheds a lot of the darker, more superstitious elements and brings the range of evil entities/things down to a demonic element. Your quotes seem to support that view although I'll happily admit that interpreting the Bible is not my strong suit.

I get the impression, from posts I see on CF, that the idea of this stuff being illusory is not shared among all Christians.

OB

 

[tall73]

Sorry Tall. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. It's just that there are times when I find the darkness implicit in Christianity a little overwhelming.

While I don't share your faith, I do see VCs explanation as one which, were I Christian, would be appealing since it sheds a lot of the darker, more superstitious elements and brings the range of evil entities/things down to a demonic element. Your quotes seem to support that view although I'll happily admit that interpreting the Bible is not my strong suit.

I get the impression, from posts I see on CF, that the idea of this stuff being illusory is not shared among all Christians.

OB

I share the view that it is a demonic element at root in all of the supernatural phenomenon, other than that attributable to God. But I think they do have some power, though limited.

It does simplify things, in a way. Almost all cultures and times have believed in the supernatural. I understand that some now think they were backwards for thinking so. However, if someone today has experienced the supernatural then they have little reason to doubt the experience of many over the centuries.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I appreciate the biblical accounts that refer to gods as things of wood and stone, obviously tying in with the prohibition against graven images and idolatry. Gods are idols. Images with no real power. They can't even save you from hemorrhoids.

Deuteronomy 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

1 Sam 5 1And the Philistines took the ark of God, and brought it from Ebenezer unto Ashdod.

2 When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon.

3 And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the earth before the ark of the Lord. And they took Dagon, and set him in his place again.

4 And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the Lord; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him.

5 Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagon's house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod unto this day.

6 But the hand of the Lord was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods, even Ashdod and the coasts thereof.

 

[Hans Blaster]

If you are an atheist why are the doctrines of the church a credible reference?

It's not so much that I think the church or its doctrines are credible, but rather that having once been a Christian who did not accept the supernatural claims of other religions I see the psychological harm done to people worrying about the curses and spirits of other religions given my personal understanding of living as a Christian without accepting such claims and that can render harm to oneself.

If we put paranormal and supernatural claims into three catagories:

1. Non-religious: Those not associated with any religon, like ESP and telekinesis.

2. Supernatural claims of other religions

3. Supernatural claims of Christianity

This example falls into category 2. (I'm not sure where to put classical ghosts. I would have put them in category 1, but I'm certain other place ghosts in each of these groups.)

Since I started out as a skeptic of the paranormal while still a Christian (who gave the supernatural claims of my own faith a free pass), and was so for many years, I still find it remarkable not so much that people believe in Cat. 1 & 2 things, but that they connect them to Christian teachings.

In my old days (or youth, if you prefer) I would have found belief in cat. 2 items tantamount to accepting the claims of other religions and other gods and therefore a violation of the 1st commandment. This provided a strong psychological barrier to accepting any such claims. I was in those days occasionally credulous about some of the "cat 1" items from time to time, but, I suspect, this credulity was more possible because they *weren't* seen as blasphemous in my mind. (For example, telekinesis isn't the tenant of another religion, so contemplating a claim wasn't necessarily a sin.)

Since all of the supernatural things discussed in this thread are external to Christianity and are the kind of things I would have rejected for most of my Christian existence I find worry and fear about these things to be unnecessary and the kind of things good Christians can rid themselves of.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It's not so much that I think the church or its doctrines are credible, but rather that having once been a Christian who did not accept the supernatural claims of other religions I see the psychological harm done to people worrying about the curses and spirits of other religions given my personal understanding of living as a Christian without accepting such claims and that can render harm to oneself.

If we put paranormal and supernatural claims into three catagories:

1. Non-religious: Those not associated with any religon, like ESP and telekinesis.

2. Supernatural claims of other religions

3. Supernatural claims of Christianity

This example falls into category 2. (I'm not sure where to put classical ghosts. I would have put them in category 1, but I'm certain other place ghosts in each of these groups.)

Since I started out as a skeptic of the paranormal while still a Christian (who gave the supernatural claims of my own faith a free pass), and was so for many years, I still find it remarkable not so much that people believe in Cat. 1 & 2 things, but that they connect them to Christian teachings.

In my old days (or youth, if you prefer) I would have found belief in cat. 2 items tantamount to accepting the claims of other religions and other gods and therefore a violation of the 1st commandment. This provided a strong psychological barrier to accepting any such claims. I was in those days occasionally credulous about some of the "cat 1" items from time to time, but, I suspect, this credulity was more possible because they *weren't* seen as blasphemous in my mind. (For example, telekinesis isn't the tenant of another religion, so contemplating a claim wasn't necessarily a sin.)

Since all of the supernatural things discussed in this thread are external to Christianity and are the kind of things I would have rejected for most of my Christian existence I find worry and fear about these things to be unnecessary and the kind of things good Christians can rid themselves of.

The scripture clearly instructs us not to have worry and fear of these things...

Case in point - Proverbs 26:2 "An undeserved curse will not settle."

And the clear reference to seeing the angelic realm in 2 Kings 6 and not to be afraid.

15
When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early in the morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. So he asked Elisha, “Oh, my master, what are we to do?”16“Do not be afraid,” Elisha answered, “for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.”17Then Elisha prayed, “O LORD, please open his eyes that he may see.”

And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw that the hills were full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

So to reject the scriptural reality of these things, because some fear, goes against scripture itself.

 

[Occams Barber]

It's not so much that I think the church or its doctrines are credible, but rather that having once been a Christian who did not accept the supernatural claims of other religions I see the psychological harm done to people worrying about the curses and spirits of other religions given my personal understanding of living as a Christian without accepting such claims and that can render harm to oneself.

If we put paranormal and supernatural claims into three catagories:

1. Non-religious: Those not associated with any religon, like ESP and telekinesis.

2. Supernatural claims of other religions

3. Supernatural claims of Christianity

This example falls into category 2. (I'm not sure where to put classical ghosts. I would have put them in category 1, but I'm certain other place ghosts in each of these groups.)

Since I started out as a skeptic of the paranormal while still a Christian (who gave the supernatural claims of my own faith a free pass), and was so for many years, I still find it remarkable not so much that people believe in Cat. 1 & 2 things, but that they connect them to Christian teachings.

In my old days (or youth, if you prefer) I would have found belief in cat. 2 items tantamount to accepting the claims of other religions and other gods and therefore a violation of the 1st commandment. This provided a strong psychological barrier to accepting any such claims. I was in those days occasionally credulous about some of the "cat 1" items from time to time, but, I suspect, this credulity was more possible because they *weren't* seen as blasphemous in my mind. (For example, telekinesis isn't the tenant of another religion, so contemplating a claim wasn't necessarily a sin.)

Since all of the supernatural things discussed in this thread are external to Christianity and are the kind of things I would have rejected for most of my Christian existence I find worry and fear about these things to be unnecessary and the kind of things good Christians can rid themselves of.

We seem to have reached a similar conclusion via a different route.

Back in post #127 I talked about 'God-based (i.e. Christian) supernatural and 'Generic' supernatural. You've taken it a stage further with your category for 'other religions'. I also had trouble placing ghosts in a particular category.

The boundaries between the 3 groups aren't always clear. It seems that the way to move something from group 1 or 2 into Group 3 is to add a demon and stir. The candles are a good example. Some Christian posters in this thread are seeing the candle as generic and unbelievable. Others are suggesting the candles posses some sort of evil power, by adding a demonic influence.

There's a phenomena I've seen in this thread, and in others, where the line between the God related supernatural (God, angels, demons etc.) and the 'generic' supernatural (fairies, elves, ghosts, leprechauns, crystal balls, Ouija boards etc.) seems to get fuzzy.

OB

 

[Hans Blaster]

The scripture clearly instructs us not to have worry and fear of these things...

Case in point - Proverbs 26:2 "An undeserved curse will not settle."

And the clear reference to seeing the angelic realm in 2 Kings 6 and not to be afraid.

15
When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early in the morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. So he asked Elisha, “Oh, my master, what are we to do?”16“Do not be afraid,” Elisha answered, “for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.”17Then Elisha prayed, “O LORD, please open his eyes that he may see.”

And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw that the hills were full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

So to reject the scriptural reality of these things, because some fear, goes against scripture itself.

I'm not quite sure why you quoted this scripture to me. This may provide comfort to the believers worried about the curses, etc., of other gods, but it has no meaning to me. If you were trying to show that the Bible supports the notion that other gods are demons or something, I don't see it here. Cheers.