Abortion and politics?

[johneb]

Are there any christians out there that vote for politicians that support abortion? How do you justify this?

 

[Fantine]

No one "supports abortion." There are politicians who believe it is more effective to promote policies that support families--universal health care, child care, higher minimum wages, family and medical leave, good educational systems, including preschool--than to count on a prohibitive law.

Did prohibition work? Did the anti-cannabis laws work?

Case in point: my niece has a profoundly disabled son due to her husband being the carrier of a genetic disease. He left when her son was about four. This young adult has had many millions of dollars of medical expenses and educational expenses. Her home state (a red state) has told her she cannot earn more than $15 an hour or her son will lose Medicaid. Duh???? If she earned $16 an hour could she pay for .0001% of his medical expenses? If she earned $40K a year could she pay for more than 1% of his medical expenses? Probably not.

How do family policies like that encourage women who learn they will have profoundly disabled children to continue their pregnancies? Even families with comfortable incomes could never handle medical expenses like that without lots of help.

And so Republicans want laws that say "no abortion." And then they turn around when a disabled baby is born and say, "BTW, if you earn more than $15 an hour you will have to beg, borrow, steal, or immigrate to Canada for him to get the medical care he needs?

Laws are cheap. Follow-through is expensive. I think the real pro-lifers are the ones whose policies are there to help families afterwards.

Any more questions?

 

[thecolorsblend]

No one "supports abortion."

This is usually the preamble to a lengthy, circuitous explanation as to why someone actually is, in fact, pro-abortion.

Did prohibition work? Did the anti-cannabis laws work?

Irrelevant questions. The purpose behind prohibition, ultimately, was to create a safer home environment for married women. This was not completely successful (A) because beating one's wife was still legal at the time and (B) most in government weren't actually interested in banning alcohol.

I understand the farcical strawman you're attempting to build here, but anybody who has cracked open a real history book probably sees the fallacy in comparing prohibition to the banning of abortion.

In any case, to actually answer the silly premise, at present, abortion has social imprimatur. It is broadly legal. The purpose behind banning abortion is to make it illegal. And to hold accountable those who break the law. Thus, if abortions occur after the ban goes into effect, the guilty parties can be held to account for their actions and dealt with accordingly.

Muh poverty, muh childcare, blah blah blah, murder is murder no matter how many outlier cases and personal anecdotes you cite. Abortion can and will be banned. Make book on that.

 

[Fantine]

Are you telling me you support the follow through? To set up a ban and punish the women who abide by the ban--abandoning them and their children to lives of poverty and helplessness--is hypocritical and immoral.

I can't support hypocritical and immoral politicians, ambitious and lacking in compassion. I always wonder why so many pro-lifers ask so little of their candidates--not even expecting them to insure that helpless children aren't hungry, homeless, or sick and untreated.

Chevy on the River said:
Abortion can and will be banned. Make book on that.

I have no doubt that the party that keeps children in cages on the border or sends them home unaccompanied to countries where they might be killed; a party that coerces or forces migrant women into getting hysterectomies; a country that regularly deports fathers to Mexico, leaving children fatherless; a country where 20% or more of children live in poverty and hunger will ban abortion if they can.

As I often say, banning abortion is the only thing, the one and only thing, that Republicans can point to to indicate that they have a tiny soupcon of good in their hearts and policies. They point with pride about being compassionate 1% of the time. Why do voters settle for so little?

I am sure that most religious leaders agree with Pope Francis, who writes that the church has “been called to form consciences, not to replace them”;

As a matter of fact, the Bishop of LaCrosse, WI censured a priest who suggested otherwise.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

I vote for candidates who will advance the policies that I support. Abortion and other hot-button social issues play no role in that one way or the other. I don't believe they are important matters to be concerned with right now, particularly in the midst of a pandemic.

 

[childeye 2]

Are there any christians out there that vote for politicians that support abortion? How do you justify this?

I am a male, but I can imagine that a woman desiring abortion is facing a great fear. One I will never have to face, at least not in the same way. I truly believe that if she faces that fear and brings the child to term, she will someday be very glad she never had an abortion. Nonetheless, I don't think I have the right to force the issue.

The politics of this are sometimes used to judge who is for God and who isn't. That bothers me since I don't believe making sin illegal is actually how God destroys the works of sin. It's possible it could bring greater wrongs.

Finally, and most of all, I figure if God would be willing to forgive a woman who had an abortion, I don't like how I would look wanting to see her in prison. Perhaps in heaven there is a soul of an aborted child that will meet their Mother. I don't want to believe the child will hate her, but will forgive her and embrace her with understanding and mercy. Somehow my wanting to see her as a murderer will look self righteous at that point.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Are you telling me you support the follow through?

When you click that button, it alerts the member to whom you are replying that you are replying.

As to your actual point (inasmuch as one was ever made), I am not sure what you mean by "follow through". Sounds like a cheap emotional appeal tho.

Anyway, whether it's private charity or as government assistance, I do believe in the social safety net, welfare and helping the poor and down on their luck. On economic issues, I am somewhere on the left. But socially, I am pretty far to the right. I believe in protecting the unborn.

Honestly, mentioning poverty and whatnot in relation to abortion policy is really just a step away from:

Finally, writing "Are you telling me you support the follow through?" is putting words in my mouth. Don't do that.

To set up a ban and punish the women who abide by the ban--abandoning them and their children to lives of poverty and helplessness--is hypocritical and immoral.

It might be best if I avoid mentioning the legal penalties I would prefer for violations of the abortion ban (which is coming, be sure of that).

The section immediately above tho points to one of the bigger divides between the left and the right. The moral foundations theory tends to suggest that the right generally has a pretty well developed and well balanced morality.

The left, however, is so morally shallow as to be funny. The left appears to operate on a paradigm drawing exclusively upon the Care and Fairness while all other elements are essentially ignored.

But the right, as above, draws just about equally from all of the moral foundations. Therefore, I might suggest that a complete explanation of the moral philosophy underlying this issue would be incomprehensible to virtually anybody on the left. They simply do not possess the tools to keep up with the conversation.

I can't support hypocritical and immoral politicians, ambitious and lacking in compassion.

More emotional appeals, yay.

I always wonder why so many pro-lifers ask so little of their candidates--not even expecting them to insure that helpless children aren't hungry, homeless, or sick and untreated.

The emotionalism is piling up so fast I need wings to stay above it.

 

[SkyWriting]

Are there any Christians out there that vote for politicians that support abortion? How do you justify this?

I'd never know if your daughter got pregnant, if you did it, or who was involved and when.
Is it really my business to legislate all that for your daughter? Do I get to make up other
rules on her life too? Can I pick how late she's out on dates and force her to carry condoms?
Should I decide who she dates?

 

[thecolorsblend]

I'd never know if your daughter got pregnant, if you did it, or who was involved and when.
Is it really my business to legislate all that for your daughter? Do I get to make up other
rules on her life too? Can I pick how late she's out on dates and force her to carry condoms?
Should I decide who she dates?

These are interesting questions.

I oppose abortion, full-stop. I want nothing to do with it. And yet, there's a political movement in this country who want to use tax monies to fund abortions. My personal opposition to abortion is apparently not enough to prevent my taxes from directly or indirectly funding abortions.

Strictly speaking, it's really nobody's business if somebody has an abortion. But when I have a financial stake in the matter (as I do vis a vis taxation) then, yes, it is absolutely my business what stronk, independant waman do with their bodies.

A wholesale abortion ban (which is coming, you be certain of that) would likely prevent my tax monies from being used to fund abortions, thereby reducing (if not eliminating) any personal interest I have in what others do with their free time, if you catch my drift.

So until abortion is banned (which it will be), yes, what other people's daughters do and who they date is absolutely my business.

 

[johneb]

I vote for candidates who will advance the policies that I support. Abortion and other hot-button social issues play no role in that one way or the other. I don't believe they are important matters to be concerned with right now, particularly in the midst of a pandemic.

This would be a good thing for you to see, https://www.unplannedfilm.com/

 

[SkyWriting]

So until abortion is banned (which it will be), yes, what other people's daughters do and who they date is absolutely my business.

What will happen is that artificial wombs will be available for men and women and you have a moral obligation to save every pregnancy and bare the children yourself no matter the cause of the pregnancy.

Until then (soon) it never will ever be your business, you won't have knowledge of it, you will not be involved, and the ladies will not be inspecting your underwear and taking DNA samples to see who you've been with. There is no plausible technology for you to ever have the needed information to monitor others. And the facts bear that out.

As the self-proclaimed fornication policeman, you are guilty of neglect and these babies lives are all on you, at your request:

-Yelizaveta Pantueva [ru] (Liza) was 5 years old when her 70-year-old maternal grandfather raped and impregnated her. She had her 6th birthday several days before giving birth. Pantueva's parents did not want the obstetricians to perform a cesarean section, as it was considered dangerous at the time. She gave birth in Kharkiv, with the aid of forceps and retractors. The 3 kg (6.6 lb), 52 cm (20 in) infant girl died during labor due to an early placental tear; she had been born at full term and apparently of good constitution and, according to doctors, would have survived if she had been extracted more quickly, revived, and oxygenated. After the incident, the family emigrated to Vladivostok, taking the girl's grandfather with them.[7]

-An unidentified 8-year-old girl in Kashmir reportedly died in labor along with her child. The girl's mother, a destitute widow, said she had been forced to accept an offer of marriage for her daughter.[15]

-An unidentified girl's pregnancy was revealed by a policeman who became suspicious in early September 2004 when he noticed the girl's swollen abdomen and thought she was being exploited by drug smugglers. After the girl had X-rays done, the officer told her mother that the girl was pregnant; the hospital confirmed she was at her 32nd week of pregnancy. The girl revealed that when she had gone to a pharmacy in Ciudad Bolívar, to fetch her sick mother's medicine, an employee there raped her. She gave birth at the Meissen Hospital.[21]

 

[.Mikha'el.]

This would be a good thing for you to see, https://www.unplannedfilm.com/

I tell you that the question of abortion plays no role in how I vote and you throw an anti-abortion film at me. Okay then...

 

[johneb]

I tell you that the question of abortion plays no role in how I vote and you throw an anti-abortion film at me. Okay then...

I am sorry you feel this way. https://christianliferesources.com/2018/04/15/u-s-abortion-statistics-by-year-1973-current/
This makes the covid 19 virus, look trivial.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Chevy on the River said:
Abortion can and will be banned. Make book on that.

You are lying about me and what I said. Or in this case DID NOT SAY.

 

[thecolorsblend]

As the self-proclaimed fornication policeman, you are guilty of neglect and these babies lives are all on you, at your request

Cheap emotional appeals failed to persuade me when that other member used them against me.

Why did you think that more emotionalism would be successful now? Here's me answering emotional arguments:

 

[SkyWriting]

Cheap emotional appeals failed to persuade me when that other member used them against me.
Why did you think that more emotionalism would be successful now? Here's me answering emotional arguments:

"Success" is not my goal.

Ok, then. My wife got pregnant and doctors confirmed that she was unable to carry a baby to term as she had Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis and had been in a wheelchair since she was 10 years old.

Her decisions were not your business.

Later my wife's roommate got pregnant and she eventually had three children. Being hit by a truck as a child she was a parapalegic but with a body brace and arm braces she was able to walk across a room with effort. Mosly she used a wheelchair for transportation and her kids often hung on the three-wheeler riding to the grocery store.

Her decisions were not your business.

My wife teaches at a middle school and one of her students returned to class to visit with her baby. The student was 13 at the time and her "Father" was in jail for raping her. So her mom decided she would now be raising two children, a 13 year old and the baby. My point being that the welfare of the 13 year old and the decision to bring the rape-baby to term was the adult's decision and you were not involved and will never be consulted. It's hard to imagine your boyfriend raping your own child and then deciding to raise that baby. But society will never be involved in those personal decisions.

Her decisions were not your business.

My point is that it's impossible to outlaw abortion because it's physically impossible to involve the public in these decisions, which might be taking place in your own family right now, who knows.

 

[SkyWriting]

Why did you think that more emotionalism would be successful now? Here's me answering emotional arguments:
View attachment 284761

The Red truck is the Pro-Life position of no abortions for any reason and the cars are pregnant women.

 

[SkyWriting]

Cheap emotional appeals failed to persuade me when that other member used them against me.

My response is entirely fact-based with no emotions attached. I didn't intend to make you feel anything.
Pro-Life people often complain that these girls are sleeping around with too many men. My response is that they are ignoring which world we live in. This is not a world where women have total control over intercourse partners and events. And we all know they don't.

- A 9-year-old girl gave birth by cesarean section to a boy at a clinic in Afyonkarahisar.[38] According to the surgeon who assisted the birth, Dr. Mehmet Telek, the mother is officially 9 years old "but, in our opinion, in fact she is a few years older than that."[39]

- María, from Candelaria de la Frontera, gave birth by cesarean section to a boy she named José Manuel. María stated that her stepfather repeatedly raped her, and that he had impregnated her at 9 years old.[44][45]

- In La Esperanza, the daughter of Andrés Gabriel Gabriel and María Valentina Lorenzo became pregnant at age 9. Her father began sexually abusing her when she was 6. Upon discovering the pregnancy, Lorenzo tried to persuade her to tell to the authorities that she was 13 years old rather than 9 1⁄2, and that her father was actually her stepfather. The young girl gave birth to a daughter by cesarean section in Tegucigalpa.[57]

- A orphan girl "Zeina" was from a neighborhood in Dakar, Senegal, and brought up by her grandmother. The grandmother had a tenant. The tenant's uncle, nearly 60 years old, raped the orphan girl. Noting the absence of her menstruations and her weight gain, her grandmother and her aunt became aware of her pregnancy in June, when she was 5 months pregnant. Ten year old Zeina gave birth by cesarean section at the Grand Yoff Hospital,[64] to a daughter she rejected.[65]

Relationship of victim to rapist before the incident[27]
Current or former intimate partner 26%
Another relative 7%
Friend or acquaintance 38%
Stranger 26%

 

[chevyontheriver]

Are there any christians out there that vote for politicians that support abortion? How do you justify this?

You will find there are many. I don't know how they have justified this to themselves.

 

[thecolorsblend]

My point is that it's impossible to outlaw abortion

Where there's a will, there's a way. Abortion will be banned. Be sure of that.