Abortion and politics?

[Arcangl86]

Are there any christians out there that vote for politicians that support abortion? How do you justify this?

To answer your question, I'm not a single issue voter. And I would like to point out that one can believe something should be legal without inherently supporting that thing. But to get back to your question, abortion is here to stay legal or not. The bans aren't going to stop them and will just make it more dangerous for the women involved. And many of the pro-life politicians support bans, but not programs that have been shown to lower the actual rate of abortions. We are never going to eliminate it, but we can make it much less common by supporting certain policies. But there is a sort of implicit, and sometimes explicit, underpinning to many anti-abortion laws and activists of it being punishment for having sex outside of marriage. That's the only reason I can think of that stuff like comprehensive sex ed and universal access to free and effective birth control aren't key policy platforms for right to life groups.

And like i said earlier, I'm not a one issue voter. I look at the balance of the policies that a candidate holds and figure out which candidate as a whole are closer to my values. Does it work out that many cases the policy positions i support would probably decrease abortions? Yes. But that's not the whole reason I support them.

 

[Halbhh]

...

Why is it you think that abortions fell so sharply downward for the 8 years of Obama, but rose in 2018 under Trump?

I know a reasonable explanation for why abortions fell at an unusually fast rate under Obama --

Obama modeled a stable marriage with fidelity and love and affection.

That's a good influence, and helps young adults make better decisions and avoid casual sex.

Some portion of young adults are influenced by the culture and the examples set by prominent people like a president.

See?

So, I have an explanation for why abortions stopped falling and rose in 2018 (in 6 of the 7 states where I looked to see the numbers).

 

[The Barbarian]

I know a reasonable explanation for why abortions fell at an unusually fast rate under Obama --

Obama modeled a stable marriage with fidelity and love and affection.

That's kind of a cheap shot, considering how Trump betrayed three wives, one after another,with floozies,and paid off one of them he got pregnant, telling her to abort his child.

It's just fascinating how some (not all) fundamentalists regard Trump as praiseworthy for his defiance of God's commandments, and regard Obama as despicable for keeping those commandments.

 

[Fantine]

Do pro-life voters ever wonder why Republicans never go the distance on abortion? They tinker around the edges, and now, in the last case that came before the Supreme Court, Justice Robert failed to uphold it.

I think I know the reason. If Republicans couldn't hold that carrot in front of voters' noses, they might have to stop attacking the Affordable Care Act so that people could afford health care. Or increase the minimum wage? Or give tax breaks to the people who need them most, instead of the top 1%.

They don't want to do that---so they need that carrot, the promise of overturning Roe v. Wade--to keep their voters in line.

Don't let yourselves fall prey to the tyranny of low expectations.

 

[The Barbarian]

Do pro-life voters ever wonder why Republicans never go the distance on abortion? They tinker around the edges, and now, in the last case that came before the Supreme Court, Justice Robert failed to uphold it.

I think I know the reason. If Republicans couldn't hold that carrot in front of voters' noses, they might have to stop attacking the Affordable Care Act so that people could afford health care. Or increase the minimum wage? Or give tax breaks to the people who need them most, instead of the top 1%.

They don't want to do that---so they need that carrot, the promise of overturning Roe v. Wade--to keep their voters in line.

Don't let yourselves fall prey to the tyranny of low expectations.

Part of the reason is, that you won't end abortion by force of law. The huge decline in abortion rates came about by lots of work by pro-life people, changing hearts and minds, not by changing laws.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Do pro-life voters ever wonder why Republicans never go the distance on abortion? They tinker around the edges, and now, in the last case that came before the Supreme Court, Justice Robert failed to uphold it.

I think I know the reason. If Republicans couldn't hold that carrot in front of voters' noses, they might have to stop attacking the Affordable Care Act so that people could afford health care. Or increase the minimum wage? Or give tax breaks to the people who need them most, instead of the top 1%.

Pretty much, actually. For a lot of years (or even decades) there, most Republicans liked campaigning with pro-life talking points but they didn't actually care about the issue. All they were interested in was infinity tax cuts for zillionaires because that's who fund their campaigns.

But in the last ten years, the Republican Party has seen a nationwide influx of officials who really are committed to the pro-life agenda.

Meaning, those committed to the pro-abortion agenda should be gravely concerned about the future of abortions.

 

[The Barbarian]

Pretty much, actually. For a lot of years (or even decades) there, most Republicans liked campaigning with pro-life talking points but they didn't actually care about the issue. All they were interested in was infinity tax cuts for zillionaires because that's who fund their campaigns.

But in the last ten years, the Republican Party has seen a nationwide influx of officials who really are committed to the pro-life agenda.

Like Donald Trump who told a woman he got pregnant to go "get rid of it?"

Doesn't sound very pro-live to me. Do you think Joe Biden did that kind of thing?

 

[thecolorsblend]

Like Donald Trump who told a woman he got pregnant to go "get rid of it?"

Doesn't sound very pro-live to me. Do you think Joe Biden did that kind of thing?

If you happen to have Tara Reade's phone number, you could ask her. I wouldn't trust Joe's recollection of the event, if he even remembers it anymore.

 

[The Barbarian]

If you happen to have Tara Reade's phone number, you could ask her.

There's a reason the Trump campaign doesn't want to talk about Tara Reade any more. Can you guess what it is? Trump's busy enough trying to find a way to avoid being compelled to provide a cheek swab to settle the question about whether or not he raped a lady some time ago. Which is odd to me; if he's innocent, all he has to do is submit a cheek swab and she loses her case.

If he's innocent. That's not why Trump's campaign doesn't want to talk about Reade, though. Make a guess?

I wouldn't trust Joe's recollection of the event, if he even remembers it anymore.

That could be one reason Trump is reluctant. As you know, he's showing more and more problems with cognition. Maybe he can't remember if he raped that woman or not.

I would think one would remember something like that, though. And Trump has told us that when he was rushed to Walter Reed Medical Center, it wasn't for a series of mini-strokes. No one had mentioned mini-strokes before, which is also kinda odd.

Hard to say. It could be that he doesn't remember.

 

[Halbhh]

That's kind of a cheap shot, considering how Trump betrayed three wives, one after another,with floozies,and paid off one of them he got pregnant, telling her to abort his child.

It's just fascinating how some (not all) fundamentalists regard Trump as praiseworthy for his defiance of God's commandments, and regard Obama as despicable for keeping those commandments.

I'd not label those claiming the label politically that they are 'pro-life' as either 'fundamentalists' or even 'Christians' (some are, and some are not) -- since the broad diverse group isn't (as a whole group) always doing the fundamentals of 'pro life' in actual reality:

The fundamentals of 'pro-life' are to actually help unwed pregnant women be very well supported: to give money/time/energy to helping young unwed mothers be supported, so that they don't travel to the next state, or to Canada or Mexico, or wherever and get an abortion out of fear.

Laws will never stop abortions. A desperate woman will just travel and get one anyway....

So.... if a politician makes a lot of noise, claims, rhetoric about "pro life"....

Don't listen to words --salesmanship, rhetoric, claims -- don't listen to just words so much, but look at actions in their personal life.

It's not laws or signs or rhetoric that will reduce abortions. Instead, it's charity and love and good examples, like Obama's good example of a stable, happy, loving marriage.

@Fantine
@thecolorsblend
@johneb

 

[GodLovesCats]

Are there any Christians out there that vote for politicians that support abortion? How do you justify this?

Christians can and should support every woman's constitutional and human right to end her pregnancy as long as America is not a theocracy. Voting for a candidate only because he or she opposes abortion is not justified unless you happen to be clueless about the Fourteenth Amendment Section 1.

First of all, "pro-choice" and "pro-abortion" are not and never were interchangeable terms. Pro-life people made up that silly idea, just like they call zygotes "babies" and insist using medical terminology is how an abortion rights supporter dehumanizes them. Being "pro-choice" means exactly that: supporting a female citizen's right to decide for herself whether she will end her pregnancy with an abortion or live birth of her unborn offspring. If she wants to be a mom, pro-choicers fully support that decision.

Second, there is absolutely nothing a POTUS can do to overturn SCOTUS rulings that proved women have the constitutional right to get abortions and sent third trimester abortion bans to the state level. All of the abortion restrictions and bans passed in the last two years were either blocked or overturned because the states made them unconstitutional and defied the Roe vs. Wade ruling on purpose. Donald Trump said he would appoint judges who opposed Roe vs. Wade, but Brett Kavanaugh later said from the bench he does not want to change court precedents. So his opposition to abortion has gone nowhere.

How can pro-lifers justify voting for a candidate only because of his or her position on abortion?

 

[jgarden]

ProLife supporters just don't get it - international studies around the world have shown that making abortion illegal doesn't impact the rate!

In the 21stC, young American women are not about to allow a group of wealthy, old, predominantly "white" politicians in Washington who know nothing of their of the most circumstances, impose their conservative moral standards and influence one of the most personal decisions in a woman's life!

I also don't see America's legal system having much enthusiasm when it comes to incarcerating millions of young women who would openly defy the law - given that the majority of Americans currently support a woman's right to choose, just how would governments enforce an unpopular law!

 

[HARK!]

just how would governments enforce an unpopular law?

The same way they always have to this day, with force.

 

[jgarden]

The same way they always have to this day, with force.

Laws imposed by a conservative Supreme Court that are out of touch with the beliefs held by the majority of Americans would be largely unenforceable - ProLife supporters appear oblivious to the simple fact that the Supreme Court exists to serve the people, the people don't exist to serve the Supreme Court!

 

[HARK!]

Laws imposed by a conservative Supreme Court that is out of touch with the opinions held by the majority of Americans would be largely unenforceable - the courts exist to serve the people, the people don't exist to serve the courts!

The opinion of the majority has little to do with what's enforceable. history demonstrates this time and again. The KGB, many Dictatorships, Imperialism, and even local property taxes, are examples of how the majority can be controlled.

 

[tulc]

the reason the Republican leadership wont actually allow abortion to be over turned is because they know the instant it's gone so is the Republican Party. They've known this for many years now and it's why they always seem to come "this close" to doing something but never quite get there. They've raised a generation of voters who simply stop thinking and get into lockstep to vote for what ever they are told to vote for when the "abortion bell" is being rung. And what politician is willing to give up that kind control over their voters?
tulc(realized that back in the 90's and stopped voting Republican)

 

[HARK!]

the reason the Republican leadership wont actually allow abortion to be over turned is because they know the instant it's gone so is the Republican Party. They've known this for many years now and it's why they always seem to come "this close" to doing something but never quite get there. They've raised a generation of voters who simply stop thinking and get into lockstep to vote for what ever they are told to vote for when the "abortion bell" is being rung. And what politician is willing to give up that kind control over their voters?
tulc(realized that back in the 90's and stopped voting Republican)

I believe the same tactics are being employed by the Democratic Party; and that most voters keep falling for the same tactics.

 

[johneb]

tulc(realized that back in the 90's and stopped voting Republican)

I can't say I stopped voting Republican, but I did switch to Independent when Alan Keyes lost the primary in 2000. But now the democrats have gone way too far left and given me no other choice : (

 

[tulc]

I believe the same tactics are being employed by the Democratic Party; and that most voters keep falling for the same tactics.

I have no doubt. The difference is I can see how Republicans manipulated those of us in the anti-abortion movement for years and years, because of that, it taught me to have no illusions about the Dems, it's just that they tend to actually do the things I need to get done...when we hold their feet to the fire of course.
tulc(and his friends have gotten pretty good at holding politicians feet to the fire...in Christian love of course)

 

[HARK!]

it's just that they tend to actually do the things I need to get done...when we hold their feet to the fire of course.
tulc(and his friends have gotten pretty good at holding politicians feet to the fire...in Christian love of course)

I'd like to believe that; but I find that difficult to believe. Still, I'd be interested in reading your techniques. Perhaps if enough people were more effective in their approaches; perhaps the People could reign in the Government to better represent us. If you start a thread on the subject; please give me a @HARK! to let me know.