LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

[dzheremi]

You said: " I do remember once comparing the LDS' charitable giving to that of Christians more generally in the USA, and it not coming out looking too good for the LDS." Was that per capita?

No, not at the source, but we could approximate what it could look like per capita, if you'd like.

Assuming wikipedia is correct, there are 6,721,032 LDS in the United States. Assuming that they are responsible for 100% of the $63 million the LDS are calculated to have given per year since 1985 (which is not realistic, but sure does simplify the math, so let's go with it; we'll do the same with Christians later, to make sure no one gets an unfair advantage, but everyone reading this should keep in mind that the same caveat applies to the Christian data, as the survey from which that total was taken wasn't a survey of every congregation or parish of every particular Church in the country; it was meant instead as a representative sample), that would come out to a per capita gift of $9.37, with a significant undercount due to rounding, as 9.37 x 6,721,032 is 62,976,069.84, not 63,000,000. So let's boost it to $9.50, which would give the LDS Church a donation total of $63,849,804 (read: even more than what is calculated when you divide the $2.2 billion given over 35 years, as in the post at the link).

Again according to wiki, there are 213,000,000 Christians in the United States. The stats offered in the other thread claim that Christians give on the order of $50 billion per year (not over the last 35 years or whatever), so $50 billion / 213,000,000 would be approximately $234.74 per person.

I'm no math wizard, but I'm pretty sure $234.74 is greater than $9.50.

You do realize that the LDS Church is only 1.6% of the population of the United States while Christianity comprises 65%. So did Christians give 40 times as much to charity?

234.74 / 9.50 = 24.7, so no, they didn't give 40 times as much. Only about 25 times as much.

I suppose this could be spun as Christians ought to up our game, and actually I'd agree with that, despite living on a fixed income myself. At the same time, the motivation to somehow crush the Mormons in terms of generosity just seems mean-spirited, and not at all in keeping with the example and command of our savior Jesus Christ and His blessed apostles and honored disciples.

If you'll recall, I only responded the way that I did in the thread that I linked to because it had been brought up (by you, if I'm not mistaken) that Mormonism is so much better than Christianity with regard to the great work it supposedly does in providing charity to the needy of the world. Far be it for me to criticize any who give charity, but I felt the need to point out in that context that what you had claimed showed Mormonism to be in a better position than Christianity was not really true.

And now that we have broken it down to a per capita level to answer your questions, it seems it is still not really true.

I hope that in the light of this you will stop trying to use this sort of thing as a point in favor of Mormonism vis-a-vis Christianity, since it's not actually that. We're not in some kind of 'charity war' in the first place, but you'd think that if a person was going to go down this particular road they'd make sure to know where it ends before just assuming that it would make them look so good and their interlocutor look so bad.

 

[mmksparbud]

Why do you think we are not in the top ten?

Utah and Mormons are the most generous givers

You should know---you are listed as one of the top 10 richest, but not top 10 givers. Interesting.

 

[He is the way]

No, not at the source, but we could approximate what it could look like per capita, if you'd like.

Assuming wikipedia is correct, there are 6,721,032 LDS in the United States. Assuming that they are responsible for 100% of the $63 million the LDS are calculated to have given per year since 1985 (which is not realistic, but sure does simplify the math, so let's go with it; we'll do the same with Christians later, to make sure no one gets an unfair advantage, but everyone reading this should keep in mind that the same caveat applies to the Christian data, as the survey from which that total was taken wasn't a survey of every congregation or parish of every particular Church in the country; it was meant instead as a representative sample), that would come out to a per capita gift of $9.37, with a significant undercount due to rounding, as 9.37 x 6,721,032 is 62,976,069.84, not 63,000,000. So let's boost it to $9.50, which would give the LDS Church a donation total of $63,849,804 (read: even more than what is calculated when you divide the $2.2 billion given over 35 years, as in the post at the link).

Again according to wiki, there are 213,000,000 Christians in the United States. The stats offered in the other thread claim that Christians give on the order of $50 billion per year (not over the last 35 years or whatever), so $50 billion / 213,000,000 would be approximately $234.74 per person.

I'm no math wizard, but I'm pretty sure $234.74 is greater than $9.50.



234.74 / 9.50 = 24.7, so no, they didn't give 40 times as much. Only about 25 times as much.

I suppose this could be spun as Christians ought to up our game, and actually I'd agree with that, despite living on a fixed income myself. At the same time, the motivation to somehow crush the Mormons in terms of generosity just seems mean-spirited, and not at all in keeping with the example and command of our savior Jesus Christ and His blessed apostles and honored disciples.

If you'll recall, I only responded the way that I did in the thread that I linked to because it had been brought up (by you, if I'm not mistaken) that Mormonism is so much better than Christianity with regard to the great work it supposedly does in providing charity to the needy of the world. Far be it for me to criticize any who give charity, but I felt the need to point out in that context that what you had claimed showed Mormonism to be in a better position than Christianity was not really true.

And now that we have broken it down to a per capita level to answer your questions, it seems it is still not really true.

I hope that in the light of this you will stop trying to use this sort of thing as a point in favor of Mormonism vis-a-vis Christianity, since it's not actually that. We're not in some kind of 'charity war' in the first place, but you'd think that if a person was going to go down this particular road they'd make sure to know where it ends before just assuming that it would make them look so good and their interlocutor look so bad.

You are not comparing apples to apples here:

• 49% of all church giving transactions are made with a card.
• 8/10 people who give to churches have zero credit debt.
• 60% are willing to give to their church digitally.
• Tithers make up only 10-25 percent of a normal congregation.
• Churches that accept tithing online increase overall donations by 32%.
• Only 5% tithe, and 80% of Americans only give 2% of their income.
• Christians are giving at 2.5% of income; during the Great Depression it was 3.3%.
• Only 3-5% of Americans who give to their local church do so through regular tithing.
• When surveyed, 17% of Americans state that they regularly tithe.
• For families making $75k+, 1% of them gave at least 10% in tithing.
• 3 out of 4 people who don’t go to church make donations to nonprofit organizations.
• The average giving by adults who attend US Protestant churches is about $17 a week.
• 37% of regular church attendees and Evangelicals don’t give money to church.
• 17% of American families have reduced the amount that they give to their local church.
• 7% of church goers have dropped regular giving by 20% or more.
• About 10 million tithers in the US donate $50 billion yearly to church & non-profits.
• 77% of those who tithe give 11%–20% or more of their income, far more than the baseline of 10%.
• 7 out of 10 tithers do so based on their gross and not their net income.

That 50 billion also includes members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.


"But compared to other religious Americans, the Romneys and other Mormons are fairly atypical when it comes to passing the plate. Across the rest of the religious landscape, tithing is often preached but rarely realized.

See All Articles
Research into church donations shows a wide range of giving, with Mormons among the most generous relative to income, followed by conservative Christians, mainline Protestants and Catholics last.

Over the past 34 years, Americans' generosity to all churches has been in steady decline, in good times and in bad, said Sylvia Ronsvalle, whose Illinois-based Empty Tomb Inc. tracks donations to Protestant churches.

Ronsvalle's research shows that since 1968, contributions have slowly slumped from 3.11 percent of income to 2.38 percent, despite gains in prosperity.

In her view, churches have failed "to call people to invest in a much larger vision." She believes that explains why giving to missions, distant anti-poverty programs or faraway ministries has sunk faster than giving for the needs of local congregations.

A recent poll by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life found that 79 percent of Mormons said they tithed to their church, a much higher percentage than in the Catholic and Protestant world."

From: Yes, Mormons tithe, but most others don't

 

[He is the way]

You should know---you are listed as one of the top 10 richest, but not top 10 givers. Interesting.

Do you have a list of the top 10 givers?

 

[mmksparbud]

You are not comparing apples to apples here:

• 49% of all church giving transactions are made with a card.
• 8/10 people who give to churches have zero credit debt.
• 60% are willing to give to their church digitally.
• Tithers make up only 10-25 percent of a normal congregation.
• Churches that accept tithing online increase overall donations by 32%.
• Only 5% tithe, and 80% of Americans only give 2% of their income.
• Christians are giving at 2.5% of income; during the Great Depression it was 3.3%.
• Only 3-5% of Americans who give to their local church do so through regular tithing.
• When surveyed, 17% of Americans state that they regularly tithe.
• For families making $75k+, 1% of them gave at least 10% in tithing.
• 3 out of 4 people who don’t go to church make donations to nonprofit organizations.
• The average giving by adults who attend US Protestant churches is about $17 a week.
• 37% of regular church attendees and Evangelicals don’t give money to church.
• 17% of American families have reduced the amount that they give to their local church.
• 7% of church goers have dropped regular giving by 20% or more.
• About 10 million tithers in the US donate $50 billion yearly to church & non-profits.
• 77% of those who tithe give 11%–20% or more of their income, far more than the baseline of 10%.
• 7 out of 10 tithers do so based on their gross and not their net income.

That 50 billion also includes members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.


"But compared to other religious Americans, the Romneys and other Mormons are fairly atypical when it comes to passing the plate. Across the rest of the religious landscape, tithing is often preached but rarely realized.

See All Articles
Research into church donations shows a wide range of giving, with Mormons among the most generous relative to income, followed by conservative Christians, mainline Protestants and Catholics last.

Over the past 34 years, Americans' generosity to all churches has been in steady decline, in good times and in bad, said Sylvia Ronsvalle, whose Illinois-based Empty Tomb Inc. tracks donations to Protestant churches.

Ronsvalle's research shows that since 1968, contributions have slowly slumped from 3.11 percent of income to 2.38 percent, despite gains in prosperity.

In her view, churches have failed "to call people to invest in a much larger vision." She believes that explains why giving to missions, distant anti-poverty programs or faraway ministries has sunk faster than giving for the needs of local congregations.

A recent poll by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life found that 79 percent of Mormons said they tithed to their church, a much higher percentage than in the Catholic and Protestant world."

From: Yes, Mormons tithe, but most others don't

LOL!! Look, bottom line, LDS Church among the 10 richest churches, they are not among the 10 to give the most, by check, coins, paper money, debit cards, or chickens---anything that is translatable to income, they are not on the list of the 10 greatest charities! But they are sure on the list of those that rake it in the most. You don't seem to get the difference. Bring down to---The top 10 churches rake in $10.00---your church rakes in $10.00---the top 1o give just for kicks say---$3.00---the LDS is still not listed amongst those that give the $3.00 to the poor. They rake it in, they do not give anywhere near what they rake in to the poor. Get it?? You can say you give $25.00---doesn't matter. The amount the church rakes in, compared to what they are giving to the poor, is actually very little. If you get 200 million and give away to the poor, 1 million---not exactly being generous, is it? You all may be giving millions to the church, but the church is not giving millions to the poor.

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you have a list of the top 10 givers?

I already gave the link to the 10 greatest charities. You are obviously not reading.

 

[He is the way]

LOL!! Look, bottom line, LDS Church among the 10 richest churches, they are not among the 10 to give the most, by check, coins, paper money, debit cards, or chickens---anything that is translatable to income, they are not on the list of the 10 greatest charities! But they are sure on the list of those that rake it in the most. You don't seem to get the difference. Bring down to---The top 10 churches rake in $10.00---your church rakes in $10.00---the top 1o give just for kicks say---$3.00---the LDS is still not listed amongst those that give the $3.00 to the poor. They rake it in, they do not give anywhere near what they rake in to the poor. Get it?? You can say you give $25.00---doesn't matter. The amount the church rakes in, compared to what they are giving to the poor, is actually very little. If you get 200 million and give away to the poor, 1 million---not exactly being generous, is it? You all may be giving millions to the church, but the church is not giving millions to the poor.

How much does your church give to the poor after paying for the clergy, buildings, etc.? You seem to think all your donations go to the poor, they don't. We don't give just money, we give food and other things including service.

 

[mmksparbud]

How much does your church give to the poor after paying for the clergy, buildings, etc.? You seem to think all your donations go to the poor, they don't. We don't give just money, we give food and other things including service.

So what??/!!! Like I said---if you pull in 200 million but only give 1 million to the poor---so What?? The members are giving the 200 million, what is the church doing with it? It's hard to find out about any church---look it up---you can't post what your church does with it's money, you can't find it!!

 

[He is the way]

I already gave the link to the 10 greatest charities. You are obviously not reading.

I am not surprised that "The Top 10 Most Amazing Christian Charities" would not include The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. That site most likely does not include us as Christians. Nor does it include how much was given.

 

[mmksparbud]

I am not surprised that "The Top 10 Most Amazing Christian Charities" would not include The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. That site most likely does not include us as Christians. Nor does it include how much was given.

And what have you got against the site that states you are in the top 10 richest churches?

So, why don't you post how much your church has given?

 

[dzheremi]

You are not comparing apples to apples here:

• 49% of all church giving transactions are made with a card.
• 8/10 people who give to churches have zero credit debt.
• 60% are willing to give to their church digitally.
• Tithers make up only 10-25 percent of a normal congregation.
• Churches that accept tithing online increase overall donations by 32%.
• Only 5% tithe, and 80% of Americans only give 2% of their income.
• Christians are giving at 2.5% of income; during the Great Depression it was 3.3%.
• Only 3-5% of Americans who give to their local church do so through regular tithing.
• When surveyed, 17% of Americans state that they regularly tithe.
• For families making $75k+, 1% of them gave at least 10% in tithing.
• 3 out of 4 people who don’t go to church make donations to nonprofit organizations.
• The average giving by adults who attend US Protestant churches is about $17 a week.
• 37% of regular church attendees and Evangelicals don’t give money to church.
• 17% of American families have reduced the amount that they give to their local church.
• 7% of church goers have dropped regular giving by 20% or more.
• About 10 million tithers in the US donate $50 billion yearly to church & non-profits.
• 77% of those who tithe give 11%–20% or more of their income, far more than the baseline of 10%.
• 7 out of 10 tithers do so based on their gross and not their net income.

What does any of this have to do with what you requested -- a per capita breakdown? I gave you that, and you're trying to throw all this other nonsense into the mix.

That 50 billion also includes members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

You tried this in the other thread, too. The problem is that you have no evidence whatsoever that all $7 billion received per year by the LDS corporate church go to charity, whereas we do have evidence for the $63 million/year number, since the Deseret News article gives us a figure of $2.2 billion over the last 35 years.

But okay, we'll take those $7 billion out of the Christian total, if that makes you feel any better.

43 billion / 213 million = $201.88

Still more than $9.50.

 

[Hrairoo]

If we are talking about tithing as part of "giving", it has already been explained that LDS Mormons are compelled to give tithing, otherwise, they don't get access to the sacred castles the church builds and they don't get eternal life. I'm also sure that other Christian churches have the doctrine, "It's not your money anyway. God made it, God gave it to you, so, the least you could do is give him the 10%, otherwise you're stealing from God." Nothing else counts as tithing either; it's a dollar amount written in the "tithing" slot on the proper paperwork. You can't just give to the poor or do service and have it count for LDS God. He demands your cold hard cash.

And yet there is no transparency. I wonder, if you did ask your Bishop where your money went and compared with others who asked, would it be a genuine answer or just something they tell everyone who asks? Like new names at the temple.

 

[He is the way]

And what have you got against the site that states you are in the top 10 richest churches?

So, why don't you post how much your church has given?

Why don't you post how much of your tithes go to pay clergy? I know how much of out tithes go to pay clergy 0%. What percent of your tithes go to the poor? Can you find out where your tithing money goes? I can find out where my tithing money goes.

 

[He is the way]

What does any of this have to do with what you requested -- a per capita breakdown? I gave you that, and you're trying to throw all this other nonsense into the mix.



You tried this in the other thread, too. The problem is that you have no evidence whatsoever that all $7 billion received per year by the LDS corporate church go to charity, whereas we do have evidence for the $63 million/year number, since the Deseret News article gives us a figure of $2.2 billion over the last 35 years.

But okay, we'll take those $7 billion out of the Christian total, if that makes you feel any better.

43 billion / 213 million = $201.88

Still more than $9.50.

You can tell how much tithes were given by ALL Christian churches in the United States, but you can't tell me how much of those tithes went to pay clergy. I know that 0% of my tithing money went to pay clergy. How much of the Christian tithing money actually went to the poor? Was it 20%? I know that it was NOT 100% like you are claiming. Besides the 2.2 billion is NOT the total tithing paid to The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints by members. We pay in about 6 billion a year.
6 billion divided by 6,721,032 = $892
44 billion divided by 213,000,000 = $207

That is on total tithe payed.

 

[He is the way]

If we are talking about tithing as part of "giving", it has already been explained that LDS Mormons are compelled to give tithing, otherwise, they don't get access to the sacred castles the church builds and they don't get eternal life. I'm also sure that other Christian churches have the doctrine, "It's not your money anyway. God made it, God gave it to you, so, the least you could do is give him the 10%, otherwise you're stealing from God." Nothing else counts as tithing either; it's a dollar amount written in the "tithing" slot on the proper paperwork. You can't just give to the poor or do service and have it count for LDS God. He demands your cold hard cash.

And yet there is no transparency. I wonder, if you did ask your Bishop where your money went and compared with others who asked, would it be a genuine answer or just something they tell everyone who asks? Like new names at the temple.

How much transparency is there in other churches? Will they be able to tell you where the tithing money is spent? Here is something to think about, which church was most prepared for the pandemic? Why did The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints start the online "Come Follow Me" program in January and shorten the meeting schedule? Why are the Kinderhook plates a problem when Joseph Smith did not translate them? Just like the Bible, the Book of Abraham, the Book of Mormon, and the Pearl of Great Price, were given by revelation from God. Isaiah prophesied of the Book of Mormon:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 29:11 - 14)

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Many churches have for profit businesses.

And many churches are more open with their finances. Why isn't yours?

 

[He is the way]

And many churches are more open with their finances. Why isn't yours?

No, other churches are NOT more open with their finances. How much does your church pay their clergy? Do you know where your tithing money goes?

 

[BigDaddy4]

I'm no math wizard, but I'm pretty sure $234.74 is greater than $9.50.

43 billion / 213 million = $201.88

Still more than $9.50.

Like science, it looks like math is not a friend of the lds.

 

[dzheremi]

You can tell how much tithes were given by ALL churches in the United States, but you can't tell me how much of those tithes went to pay clergy.

I can't tell you how much went to pay janitorial staff, either, but these sorts of things were never the question. You made an assertion about LDS giving, and it was shown to be false.

And as Hrairoo has already shown in this thread, there are plenty of paid leaders in the LDS religion. You just don't call them clergy, nor their salary a salary.

And just by the way, I think it's a good thing that clergy are paid, in most cases. All this worry and unnecessary angst about 'priest craft' is just another thing that JS and Co. made up to try to bolster their phony baloney claims to authority.

Are some Christian clergy paid too much? Without a doubt. But most are not making very much at all. For instance, the average Catholic priest's salary (chosen because the RCC is the largest, richest Church in Christianity, and they're probably the one that most westerners think of when they think of a church with a clearly defined clergy) in the USA appears to be around $31,000 a year, which is well below the average salary in every U.S. state (note: I couldn't find a reported national average for this year, only widely varying estimates depending on who was doing the counting and what they included as part of their estimate).

I know that 0% of my tithing money went to pay clergy. How much of the Christian tithing money actually went to the poor? Was it 20%? I know that it was NOT 100% like you are claiming.

What? Where did I claim that 100% of tithing done in Christian churches goes to the poor? I never claimed that, and that was never what we were arguing about in the first place.

Geez Louise...so things don't go your way after you claim things about LDS tithing vs. Christian tithing, and your response is to try to trap me by claiming that I've said something I didn't say, and then tailoring your argument to that?

Why do you have to be so dishonest? Doesn't your religion teach you not to lie?

 

[He is the way]

Like science, it looks like math is not a friend of the lds.

If we are talking about total tithes, The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints by members. We pay in about 6 billion a year.
6 billion divided by 6,721,032 = $892
44 billion divided by 213,000,000 = $207

That is total tithes.