Temporal Salvation?

[Gr8Grace]

Amen, my brother. What I marvel at, is that one could possible read scripture and come to a different conclusion.

Doug

I have followed this thread and others that you guys are on...........If I believed as you do, I would be concerned that my conclusion is pretty much the same conclusion as every religion on this planet.............Man through his own efforts, trying to gain Gods approval.

 

[TibiasDad]

I have followed this thread and others that you guys are on...........If I believed as you do, I would be concerned that my conclusion is pretty much the same conclusion as every religion on this planet.............Man through his own efforts, trying to gain Gods approval.

Then, with all due respect, I think you have a strawman version of what we believe if you make such sweeping alliances so as to compare my thinking with every other religious belief on the winds! That is very shallow argumentation!

Doug

 

[GDL]

We can't even understand your list nor His word unless we are saved and have His Spirit.......let alone try to fulfill it!

And you miss the point entirely.

 

[TibiasDad]

Religion always puts the cart before the horse. Not one human being can do anything on your list unless one IS born again. We Have to be saved and sealed by the Spirit and operate under the filling of the Holy Spirit to do ANYTHING that is DIVINE good.
Yeah, we can try to make your list and a lot of us can fool many around us...........But our human good is like used menstrual rags to God.

We have to be saved, PERIOD. We have to be children of God BEFORE we can do ANYTHING that pleases Him.

We can't even understand your list nor His word unless we are saved and have His Spirit.......let alone try to fulfill it!

So what's your point? Do you think we are saying that we are saying anything different in principle? We are not! We can do nothing sans the Father extending grace to us, giving us understanding through the gospel, and without the death and resurrection of Christ. These are all the work of God, as well as giving us new life through the in dwelling of the Spirit.

Doug

 

[Gr8Grace]

Freegrace you mentioned it a while back......................Spiritual discernment is severely lacking in this day and age. Lots and lots of human good. Not much divine good.

It's sad to see that the majority of believers can't even get out of the gates(salvation/milk) and start the race(meat/Christian way of life.)

If we think the Christian way of life is about getting saved,maintaining salvation,keeping salvation,not losing salvation............we go NOWHERE in the Christian way of life.

 

[TibiasDad]

Freegrace you mentioned it a while back......................Spiritual discernment is severely lacking in this day and age. Lots and lots of human good. Not much divine good.

It's sad to see that the majority of believers can't even get out of the gates(salvation/milk) and start the race(meat/Christian way of life.)

If we think the Christian way of life is about getting saved,maintaining salvation,keeping salvation,not losing salvation............we go NOWHERE in the Christian way of life.

You have no idea what we believe or how we live our lives, or what our progress is in the faith! You misrepresent our arguments, stringing strawmen like piñatas at a birthday party to whack until the candy of self-satisfaction gives you a sufficient high that you can pat yourselves on the back for such an efficient slaying of the dreaded dragon!

I haven’t worried about loosing my salvation for over 40 years, and I am sure that those who have side with me in this thread will have similar testimonies! I know I am saved, because I know I presently believe and am seeking to honor and love my Lord with all my heart, mind, soul and strength and my neighbor as myself! I have no desire to forsake my Lord, and have no fear of being forsaken!

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

Freegrace you mentioned it a while back......................Spiritual discernment is severely lacking in this day and age. Lots and lots of human good. Not much divine good.

It's sad to see that the majority of believers can't even get out of the gates(salvation/milk) and start the race(meat/Christian way of life.)

If we think the Christian way of life is about getting saved,maintaining salvation,keeping salvation,not losing salvation............we go NOWHERE in the Christian way of life.

The Arminians have blocked me, so they won't see my posts. Because they can't defend their claims, nor show why or how my claims are unbiblical.

Their "read" of Scripture is just so appallingly inaccurate. But then, without spiritual discernment, how can it be otherwise?

Just keep on pointing out their errors and contradiction of Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have no idea what we believe or how we live our lives

Ha. In fact, Gr8Grace and I know exactly what Arminians believe, by what they post. It seems Doug must resort to denial though.

or what our progress is in the faith!

Ha. By what Arminians post, it is clear they have no idea about what spiritual growth even is. To them, there are only 2 statuses; saved or lost. Through sin, believers become lost. Kinda like yo-yos. In and out.

They have NO concept of growing in grace. In fact, by their own theological notions, they have NO idea what grace really is.

You misrepresent our arguments, stringing strawmen like piñatas at a birthday party to whack until the candy of self-satisfaction gives you a sufficient high that you can pat yourselves on the back for such an efficient slaying of the dreaded dragon!

Yea, sure. Nice DENIAL of truth. We have REFUTED their arguments, so they make up stuff about strawmen.

I haven’t worried about loosing my salvation for over 40 years, and I am sure that those who have side with me in this thread will have similar testimonies! I know I am saved, because I know I presently believe and am seeking to honor and love my Lord with all my heart, mind, soul and strength and my neighbor as myself! I have no desire to forsake my Lord, and have no fear of being forsaken!
Doug

I'm pretty sure every Pharisee thought the same thing in Jesus' day.

This just shows how out of touch the Arminian theology is.

 

[Gr8Grace]

I'm pretty sure every Pharisee thought the same thing in Jesus' day.

This just shows how out of touch the Arminian theology is.

Yeah, they are 'secure' because of what they are doing. Not one mention of what the Lord Jesus Christ did for them.

The Armin~~~I am secure because of I,I,I.....

The Believer who advances a bit in His Grace and Word(knowledge)~~~I am secure because of the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

He Sealed believers for the day of redemption.
He promised not to forsake believers.
He gave believers eternal life.
Nothing can separate believers from His Love........And many more.


It's all about creature credit in their religion and nary a word about the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yeah, they are 'secure' because of what they are doing. Not one mention of what the Lord Jesus Christ did for them.

The Armin~~~I am secure because of I,I,I.....

The Believer who advances a bit in His Grace and Word(knowledge)~~~I am secure because of the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So true!! From their own posts. So, of course we KNOW EXACTLY what they believe, contrary to what the poster claimed.

He Sealed believers for the day of redemption.
He promised not to forsake believers.
He gave believers eternal life.
Nothing can separate believers from His Love........And many more.

Arminians do NOT believe any of this. It all depends upon what THEY DO to stay saved.

 

[GDL]

We can't even understand your list nor His word unless we are saved and have His Spirit.......let alone try to fulfill it!

I agree with you.

But then we need to deal with the fact that once we are under subjection to His Grace, through belief in Him & His Son, this is how His Children are described in His Word by His Apostle as inspired by His Spirit. And we need to deal with the fact that there are +/- 1,000 commands in His Word in His New Covenant alone that present to our volition what He wants us to think and how He wants us to act as He works in us by His Grace both to will & to do what pleases Him.

Yes, what we now live is by Christ who lives in us, but we are commanded to do our part.

You'd think this would be simple to understand and would prevent the infantile personal attacks and camp labels thrown at fellow Christians. But such is camp mentality and the growth process until we all come to the unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God - maturity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Gr8Grace said: ↑
We can't even understand your list nor His word unless we are saved and have His Spirit.......let alone try to fulfill it!

I agree with you.

Well, that is a start.

But then we need to deal with the fact that once we are under subjection to His Grace, through belief in Him & His Son, this is how His Children are described in His Word by His Apostle as inspired by His Spirit. And we need to deal with the fact that there are +/- 1,000 commands in His Word in His New Covenant alone that present to our volition what He wants us to think and how He wants us to act as He works in us by His Grace both to will & to do what pleases Him.

And we agree with this.

However, none of the +/- 1,000 commands are about how to retain salvation.

Yes, what we now live is by Christ who lives in us, but we are commanded to do our part.

Again, we agree with this.

You'd think this would be simple to understand and would prevent the infantile personal attacks and camp labels thrown at fellow Christians.

Please provide any examples of what you are calling "infantile personal attacks", if you actually have any. Thanks.

And, we also think this would be simple to understand as well. But Arminians do not understand that eternal rewards are earned, whereas eternal salvation is not earned, nor deserved, but is by grace alone. Why is that?

But such is camp mentality and the growth process until we all come to the unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God - maturity.

Those who believe that salvation can be lost are Arminian in their sotereiological theology.

Calling someone an Arminian isn't a personal attack. It's a fact, if they believe that salvation can be lost.

 

[Gr8Grace]

And, we also think this would be simple to understand as well. But Arminians do not understand that eternal rewards are earned, whereas eternal salvation is not earned, nor deserved, but is by grace alone. Why is that?

Because Grace goes against everything we know. All of angelic wisdom and all of human wisdom could and would NEVER come up with Gods plan for salvation.........It's a 'slap in the face' to our pride and self righteousness.

This deserves repeating. satans ace trump is our human good and self righteous side........Just be good,learn the vocabulary, do your 'good' works, say His name, praise Him.................But don't Trust in Him alone.

 

[TibiasDad]

Yeah, they are 'secure' because of what they are doing. Not one mention of what the Lord Jesus Christ did for them.

The Armin~~~I am secure because of I,I,I.....

The Believer who advances a bit in His Grace and Word(knowledge)~~~I am secure because of the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

He Sealed believers for the day of redemption.
He promised not to forsake believers.
He gave believers eternal life.
Nothing can separate believers from His Love........And many more.


It's all about creature credit in their religion and nary a word about the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You are clueless as to what Arminian beliefs truly are. If the personal actions of men were of no meaning or value then why are there commands and warnings against ignoring them?

These are not warnings and threats that we might be sent to bed without our supper, or be grounded or banned from playing our video games! This is eternal destiny and consequences on the line.

If I am saved, it is by his grace alone. No action of man can ever obligate God, whether before or after salvation! So there is no possible way that I am the securing agent of my faith! And no Arminian worthy of the name believes that they are! It is a strawman argument of the Reformed rank and file that is bantered mindlessly without any seriously honest study and investigation of what Arminians actual profess and practice!

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because Grace goes against everything we know. All of angelic wisdom and all of human wisdom could and would NEVER come up with Gods plan for salvation.........It's a 'slap in the face' to our pride and self righteousness.

This deserves repeating. satans ace trump is our human good and self righteous side........Just be good,learn the vocabulary, do your 'good' works, say His name, praise Him.................But don't Trust in Him alone.

Yes. Just what the Pharisees thought, too.

John 5:39 - You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me

While the Arminians claim they are saved by grace through faith, they only trust in what they DO in order to keep salvation.

Yet, Jesus did it all. There is nothing they can do to keep their salvation. It is sad they think there is. In fact, what they MUST DO to keep their salvation.

Quite a slap in the face of what Christ did for them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are clueless as to what Arminian beliefs truly are.

In fact, we both know exactly what Arminians beliefs, as Doug has made many posts that describe clearly what they believe.

If the personal actions of men were of no meaning or value then why are there commands and warnings against ignoring them?

Doug has me blocked so he won't see my answers. So someone needs to ask these questions to him.

The value is in receiving eternal reward, of course.

These are not warnings and threats that we might be sent to bed without our supper, or be grounded or banned from playing our video games! This is eternal destiny and consequences on the line.

Yes, the Arminian mind is quick to deprecate or minimize God's painful discipline as seen in Doug's comment about "going to bed without supper", or be "grounded", or "banned from playing our video games". How childish, since God's Word is very clear about losing reward.

If I am saved, it is by his grace alone.

Oh, but... You clearly claim that you KEEP saved by your own efforts to "continue to believe', etc.

No action of man can ever obligate God, whether before or after salvation! So there is no possible way that I am the securing agent of my faith!

This shows that even Doug doesn't understand his own theology. He has repeatedly said that if he ceases to believe, he ceases to be saved.

 

[TibiasDad]

This deserves repeating. satans ace trump is our human good and self righteous side........Just be good,learn the vocabulary, do your 'good' works, say His name, praise Him...

Well since we don't believe, teach, or practice this you must not be talking to me or anyone else you have been talking about.


Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well since we don't believe, teach, or practice this you must not be talking to me or anyone else you have been talking about.


Doug

What Doug actually does preach is that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish, which is in direct conflict with what the Lord Jesus said Himself.

"I give them (believers) eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH." John 10:28

And Doug cannot provide any explanation to show that Jesus didn't really mean what the verse plainly says.

Therefore, Jesus meant EXACTLY what He said.

Once given eternal life, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.

No if's, and's, or but's. No exceptions. Or Jesus would have included them in John 10:28.

So, what these clever Arminians do is try to force the description of what His sheep DO as requirements for receiving eternal life and never perishing.

But, as anyone who is fluent in the English language can easily see, there are NO conditions for anything in v.27 or v.28.

v.27 is a statement about what His sheep do, and v.28 is a statement what recipients of eternal life WON'T DO, which is to perish.

Very simple.

 

[Gr8Grace]

What Doug actually does preach is that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish, which is in direct conflict with what the Lord Jesus said Himself.

"I give them (believers) eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH." John 10:28

And Doug cannot provide any explanation to show that Jesus didn't really mean what the verse plainly says.

Therefore, Jesus meant EXACTLY what He said.

Once given eternal life, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.

No if's, and's, or but's. No exceptions. Or Jesus would have included them in John 10:28.

So, what these clever Arminians do is try to force the description of what His sheep DO as requirements for receiving eternal life and never perishing.

But, as anyone who is fluent in the English language can easily see, there are NO conditions for anything in v.27 or v.28.

v.27 is a statement about what His sheep do, and v.28 is a statement what recipients of eternal life WON'T DO, which is to perish.

Very simple.

Worth repeating so all can see.~~~~

What Doug actually does preach is that a recipient of eternal life CAN perish, which is in direct conflict with what the Lord Jesus said Himself.

"I give them (believers) eternal life, and they SHALL NEVER PERISH." John 10:28

And Doug cannot provide any explanation to show that Jesus didn't really mean what the verse plainly says.

Therefore, Jesus meant EXACTLY what He said.

Once given eternal life, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.

No if's, and's, or but's. No exceptions. Or Jesus would have included them in John 10:28.

So, what these clever Arminians do is try to force the description of what His sheep DO as requirements for receiving eternal life and never perishing.

But, as anyone who is fluent in the English language can easily see, there are NO conditions for anything in v.27 or v.28.

v.27 is a statement about what His sheep do, and v.28 is a statement what recipients of eternal life WON'T DO, which is to perish.

Very simple.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Well since we don't believe, teach, or practice this you must not be talking to me or anyone else you have been talking about.


Doug

Well you fooled me. Been following pretty close for quite some time now, And here is the list that you replied to and clicked "winner" for:

1. Jesus gave the capability to become CoG to whoever received Him – to those who believe in His name J1:12

2. CoG are those Jews & Gentiles (J11:52) who:

A. Confess Jesus Christ came in flesh 1J4:4

B. Do Righteousness 1J3:10

C. Keep God’s commandments/Love God 1J5:2

D. Love their fellow CoG; 1J3:10

E. Suffer together with Jesus Christ while being led by the Spirit & by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body Rom8:13—17

F. Are free from & thus no longer enslaved to corruption/depravity Rom8:21

G. Imitate God as His beloved Children Eph5:1

H. Obey Apostolic instruction to: (i) work to accomplish their Salvation in fear & trembling while God works in them to will & do what pleases Him, and; (ii) do all things to become blameless & innocent CoG without complaining & arguing as they hold fast the Word of Life Phil2:12—16

I. Will see Jesus Christ when He is revealed, and will be like Him 1J3:2

When I use this detail to let God explain to me who His Children are, it leaves little to no room for this immediate born again concept with no obedience to the commanded growth, or born again & walk away as warned & commanded not to do. As you said, there is an "ultimate fulfillment" to such terminology. The problem with the non-fulfillment theory is that when a Child of God is defined, the non-fulfilling do not fit the definition and would seem to be left out.