LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

[He is the way]

is it your experience that the tithes are paid directly to the bishop?
are special slips of paper involved, and are careful records kept?

during the temple recommend interview, will a bishop just take the person's word for it that they are a full tithe payer?
if so, why the slips of paper and careful record keeping (if that is done).

Doesn't the church you belong to keep donation records? The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints does keep donation records. A person can find out where their donations are being used. They can also decide where those donations are being used. Having been a financial clerk myself, I am aware of how those records are kept and how things are done. When a person declares their worthiness they are making a declaration before God. Those declarations should NOT be taken lightly.

 

[Hrairoo]

When a person declares their worthiness they are making a declaration before God. Those declarations should NOT be taken lightly.

I don't understand this. I was a member for 33 years and never simply "declared" my worthiness. Are you referring to the interviews with the Bishop?

 

[He is the way]

if you're referring to the story of the Rich Young ruler, he thinks he has kept all the commandments.
Jesus tells them there's still more.

imo, that's the difficulty with trying to get eternal life by following a set of rules.
no one ever does it fully or completely.
I think that's what the story of the Rich Young ruler tells us.

New Living Translation
Romans 3 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law (or any other set of rules, imo) commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

I would much rather be in the shoes of the Samaritan woman than the young ruler.
John 4:10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water."

(I think Jesus is using living water here to symbolize eternal life.)
the woman is not "living right" either by the "biggie" commandments or the "jots and tittles".

Jesus says,
"ask me".

There are actually at least two times when Jesus taught that keeping the commandments would lead to eternal life:

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

After this the lawyer, trying to justify himself, asked who his neighbor was. Jesus then told the story of the good Samaritan.

 

[He is the way]

I don't understand this. I was a member for 33 years and never simply "declared" my worthiness. Are you referring to the interviews with the Bishop?

I am referring to the interviews with the bishop or one of his councilors, and the interview with one of the stake presidency.

 

[Hrairoo]

I am referring to the interviews with the bishop or one of his councilors, and the interview with one of the stake presidency.

Thanks for clarifying. Defining terms is important in these kinds of discussions.

 

[Leaf473]

Bishops do not have copies of our paychecks.

well, now we have conflicting reports from two different Witnesses.

are you in a position to know what information LDS bishops have?
if so, what is your position?

 

[He is the way]

I don't care what you say. My brother in law was not a liar. Believe what you want. You were not there. I will take his word for it. His superiors were also Mormons. So, yah---I believe him. There was no reason for him to lie to me. You, on the other hand, would not admit this even if you had been the bishop doing it!!

If it happened as your brother in law stated, that bishop should have been reported for the misuse of his position.

 

[mmksparbud]

If it happened as your brother in law stated, that bishop should have been reported for the misuse of his position.

LOL!! To whom? It was a small Mormon town where even the cops were Mormon. No other Mormons cared. Power corrupts. I you can get away with it, you will do it. I imagine that over time, as more and more Non-Mormons came in, the practice ended. Are there still "closed" towns anymore? Haven't check on that.

 

[He is the way]

LOL!! To whom? It was a small Mormon town where even the cops were Mormon. No other Mormons cared. Power corrupts. I you can get away with it, you will do it. I imagine that over time, as more and more Non-Mormons came in, the practice ended. Are there still "closed" towns anymore? Haven't check on that.

The stake president.

 

[mmksparbud]

The stake president.

Have no clue what that means.

 

[He is the way]

Have no clue what that means.

The stake president is over the wards in the area. the bishop is over the ward. The bishop answers to the stake president. Bishops do not tell people whether or not they are paying a full tithe. The person tells the bishop if they are paying a full tithe or not.

 

[mmksparbud]

The stake president is over the wards in the area. the bishop is over the ward. The bishop answers to the stake president. Bishops do not tell people whether or not they are paying a full tithe. The person tells the bishop if they are paying a full tithe or not.

LOL! m I don't think that my in-laws where in this long enough to bother with that. They just wanted to move and get away from everyone. And they never dealt with them again. One child married a Mormon---didn't last long.

 

[He is the way]

LOL! m I don't think that my in-laws where in this long enough to bother with that. They just wanted to move and get away from everyone. And they never dealt with them again. One child married a Mormon---didn't last long.

If it was important enough for him to leave the church he should have reported it. By the way the Book of Abraham is true.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, and this was a small town in Utah---a Mormon town, even the cops were Mormon and closed. Meaning no alcohol was sold. Everyone got around that by going to the next town that was not closed! First time I had ever heard of a "closed" town. They said it was funny to drive down the streets on trash day, they'd have the bottles piled on top of the trash like a gigantic pyramid!! Nobody fessed up to the drinking. The sanitation guys knew, and reported them. But the just said it was the non-Mormon who drove by and emptied their bottles in their trash! There were very few non-Mormons, and they, like my brother-in-law and his wife, usually left. They came here, to Las Vegas! Definitely not "closed."

that's hilarious about the bottles being piled on top of the trash!

I believe it, not because I want to think poorly about Mormons, but because that's just human nature!

 

[Leaf473]

Doesn't the church you belong to keep donation records? The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints does keep donation records. A person can find out where their donations are being used. They can also decide where those donations are being used. Having been a financial clerk myself, I am aware of how those records are kept and how things are done. When a person declares their worthiness they are making a declaration before God. Those declarations should NOT be taken lightly.

yes, every church I have been in has had a system of keeping track of amounts people give.

the system was always optional.

it was presented as,
"if you want a receipt at the end of the year for tax purposes, use this system".

as far as being able to track how the money is being used, if I trust a person or organization, I don't worry about it.
if I don't trust them, I don't give the money.
if I donate and they squander it, that's between them and God, imo.
most churches I've been a part of produce a financial statement at the end of the year, if that's important to a person.


************

so, some questions I didn't see your answer to, if you wish to respond:

is it your experience that the tithes are paid directly to the bishop?

are special slips of paper involved, and are careful records kept?

during the temple recommend interview, will a bishop just take the person's word for it that they are a full tithe payer?

 

[Leaf473]

There are actually at least two times when Jesus taught that keeping the commandments would lead to eternal life:

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

After this the lawyer, trying to justify himself, asked who his neighbor was. Jesus then told the story of the good Samaritan.

(most people probably already know this, but just for clarity, the story of the Good Samaritan is completely separate from the story of the Samaritan woman.)

Jesus meets the lawyer where he is.
he asks the lawyer what the Law (the set of rules given through Moses) says to him.

the lawyer answers love God and the humans around you.

the lawyer has distilled the traditional 613 rules, some of which are very specific, into two general rules,
which point to a lifestyle.

Jesus then tells the story of the Good Samaritan, which confirms the idea that it is a lifestyle he is talking about, since clearly it is not only those who take that particular road and meet a wounded man that obtain eternal life.

as I read the scriptures, the approach Jesus takes to eternal life is:
forgive others (thus having faith that God will handle the situation his way)
be merciful to others (thus having faith that God likes mercy).

this fits well with Paul's quote
"the righteous will live by faith".

for Paul, the object of faith is God raising Jesus from the dead.

but both approaches focus on faith and who God is and what he has done / will do.

 

[mmksparbud]

If it was important enough for him to leave the church he should have reported it. By the way the Book of Abraham is true.

Well, he didn't and they are long dead now. And he didn't believe there was anyone to report this to who would do anything different. And it was not the only thing that drove him away from the church. They read your books and did not believe a word of them----certainly not the book of Abraham at all! But he did become a Mason. And then he said he knew where their so called rituals came from. At that time I did not really pay attention, many years later I came to Las Vegas and stayed with them for several months. I was divorced from my husband then, this was his oldest sister and her husband. They absolutely wanted nothing to do with LDS after their brief exposure to it.
They tried to tell the one child that married a Mormon but he was in love and didn't hear a word---until he was married to her and then realized what she actually believed in, read some stuff and ran for the hills, she had 6 kids from her previous marriages and he thought he wanted whatever she wanted, until he realized everything she wanted was nothing that he wanted and they could not live together! At least that is what I heard.
And BTW---the Book of Abraham is not true at all.

 

[He is the way]

yes, every church I have been in has had a system of keeping track of amounts people give.

the system was always optional.

it was presented as,
"if you want a receipt at the end of the year for tax purposes, use this system".

as far as being able to track how the money is being used, if I trust a person or organization, I don't worry about it.
if I don't trust them, I don't give the money.
if I donate and they squander it, that's between them and God, imo.
most churches I've been a part of produce a financial statement at the end of the year, if that's important to a person.


************

so, some questions I didn't see your answer to, if you wish to respond:

is it your experience that the tithes are paid directly to the bishop?

are special slips of paper involved, and are careful records kept?

during the temple recommend interview, will a bishop just take the person's word for it that they are a full tithe payer?

Tithing checks are made out to the ward, cash is put in an envelope and given to the bishop or one of his councilors. I think most people pay online now. Two part slips of paper are used with a copy for the donor for people who do not donate online. Careful records are kept and there are receipts handed out or many people get on line receipts.

 

[He is the way]

(most people probably already know this, but just for clarity, the story of the Good Samaritan is completely separate from the story of the Samaritan woman.)

Jesus meets the lawyer where he is.
he asks the lawyer what the Law (the set of rules given through Moses) says to him.

the lawyer answers love God and the humans around you.

the lawyer has distilled the traditional 613 rules, some of which are very specific, into two general rules,
which point to a lifestyle.

Jesus then tells the story of the Good Samaritan, which confirms the idea that it is a lifestyle he is talking about, since clearly it is not only those who take that particular road and meet a wounded man that obtain eternal life.

as I read the scriptures, the approach Jesus takes to eternal life is:
forgive others (thus having faith that God will handle the situation his way)
be merciful to others (thus having faith that God likes mercy).

this fits well with Paul's quote
"the righteous will live by faith".

for Paul, the object of faith is God raising Jesus from the dead.

but both approaches focus on faith and who God is and what he has done / will do.

Jesus said to the lawyer "this do, and thou shalt live." So what did the lawyer have to do? He had to LOVE God and his neighbor. In the story of the good Samaritan we learn who the neighbor was:

(New Testament | Luke 10:33 - 37)

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

These scriptures are NOT passive, they are action scriptures. There are indeed requirements to eternal life.

 

[He is the way]

Well, he didn't and they are long dead now. And he didn't believe there was anyone to report this to who would do anything different. And it was not the only thing that drove him away from the church. They read your books and did not believe a word of them----certainly not the book of Abraham at all! But he did become a Mason. And then he said he knew where their so called rituals came from. At that time I did not really pay attention, many years later I came to Las Vegas and stayed with them for several months. I was divorced from my husband then, this was his oldest sister and her husband. They absolutely wanted nothing to do with LDS after their brief exposure to it.
They tried to tell the one child that married a Mormon but he was in love and didn't hear a word---until he was married to her and then realized what she actually believed in, read some stuff and ran for the hills, she had 6 kids from her previous marriages and he thought he wanted whatever she wanted, until he realized everything she wanted was nothing that he wanted and they could not live together! At least that is what I heard.
And BTW---the Book of Abraham is not true at all.

The Book of Abraham is true and no one has proven otherwise. Too bad that the papyri used to write it was burned up.