Atheism and nihilism

[Ken-1122]

There is much more to life than what kind of a day you are having. There is a point to the Christian's life. Unbelievers have no point. There is hope for the Christian. There is no hope for the unbeliever. Even the suffering a Christian endures has a good purpose. And one day, believers will be taken from the earth and move to their new home. My worst day as a Christian is better than my best day as an unbeliever.

Before I was born again, I had "good" times. Mostly it revolved around alcohol, movies, TV, friends and work. At the same time I had a deep down discontentment. There had to be more to life. And there is. Much more. I could not go back to my old way of life. It was empty and vain.

You seem to be making the mistake of assuming everybody is like you; that atheists are like you were when you were atheist, and Christians are like you now that you are christian. When I was Christian, I was miserable, full of self hatred, and spent more time angry and upset (mostly at myself) than I spent happy. But to assume this is the experience of all Christians because this was my experience would be absurd. It is just as absurd for you to assume that because you had no hope in your life, and your life was full of discontentment during your atheists years, that this is something all atheists experience. That being said, nothing you've said refutes anything I said from post #775 so I will assume my point was accurate

 

[Lord Vega]

The trouble is that these things tend to only be brought up to explain why these claims never stand up to scrutiny. Why don't believers ever say that we misunderstood Jesus' words when he said to love our neighbours?

If you were to pray to God tonight and ask him to reveal his existence, and the following day God showed himself to you, would you believe that constitutes evidence for the existence of a higher being?

 

[Ken-1122]

If you were to pray to God tonight and ask him to reveal his existence, and the following day God showed himself to you, would you believe that constitutes evidence for the existence of a higher being?

Why do you suppose God doesn't do this? What's the worse that can happen if God did reveal himself to the entire world using an audible voice in a language each of us can understand and cleared up all the misunderstandings everyone has of him? Why doesn't he do this?

 

[Kylie]

If you were to pray to God tonight and ask him to reveal his existence, and the following day God showed himself to you, would you believe that constitutes evidence for the existence of a higher being?

Yes. And the less likely that such evidence could have occurred naturally, the stronger I shall consider it.

 

[Lord Vega]

Yes. And the less likely that such evidence could have occurred naturally, the stronger I shall consider it.

So why haven't you tried it yet? If you don't seek God in the first place, you won't ever find him.

 

[Ken-1122]

So why haven't you tried it yet? If you don't seek God in the first place, you won't ever find him.

Trust me! It doesn't work.

 

[Kylie]

So why haven't you tried it yet? If you don't seek God in the first place, you won't ever find him.

And here we go.

You assume that just because I'm not a Christian that I haven't tried it yet. Because there's no way that anyone could try it and not get the results you think MUST come, right? Guess what? I HAVE tried it, and I got nothing.

It's very arrogant to think that what works for you MUST work for everyone.

 

[The One Reborn]

And here we go.

You assume that just because I'm not a Christian that I haven't tried it yet. Because there's no way that anyone could try it and not get the results you think MUST come, right? Guess what? I HAVE tried it, and I got nothing.

It's very arrogant to think that what works for you MUST work for everyone.

I am sure that in the afterlife God will recognize that you tried your best. I am sorry that there seem to be Christians who think criticizing you for trying is the way to go.

 

[Lord Vega]

And here we go.

You assume that just because I'm not a Christian that I haven't tried it yet. Because there's no way that anyone could try it and not get the results you think MUST come, right? Guess what? I HAVE tried it, and I got nothing.

It's very arrogant to think that what works for you MUST work for everyone.

Your faith must be genuine for it to work, and you must be receptive to God's voice. If you're putting God to a test, you'll fail each time at finding him.

 

[Ken-1122]

Your faith must be genuine for it to work, and you must be receptive to God's voice. If you're putting God to a test, you'll fail each time at finding him.

Still; it doesn't work!

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Your faith must be genuine for it to work, and you must be receptive to God's voice. If you're putting God to a test, you'll fail each time at finding him.

My faith was genuine, I was receptive. I was a Christian. Now I see that I didn’t have a good reason to be one.

 

[Lord Vega]

Still; it doesn't work!

Prove it, otherwise your argument is moot.

 

[Kylie]

Your faith must be genuine for it to work, and you must be receptive to God's voice. If you're putting God to a test, you'll fail each time at finding him.

So I need to believe in order to get the proof.

Still requires me to believe without actually having any evidence to do so. I honestly don't understand how you are apparently incapable of seeing the flaw in this reasoning.

 

[Kylie]

Prove it, otherwise your argument is moot.

You are the one making the claim, you must prove that your claims are correct. That's how the burden of proof works.

 

[Ken-1122]

Prove it, otherwise your argument is moot.

I already did countless times! Back when I was a Christian, before giving up on Christianity I tried it countless times and it doesn't work

 

[Jok]

Yes. And the less likely that such evidence could have occurred naturally, the stronger I shall consider it.

I already did countless times! Back when I was a Christian, before giving up on Christianity I tried it countless times and it doesn't work

My faith was genuine, I was receptive. I was a Christian. Now I see that I didn’t have a good reason to be one.

Hello. Out of curiosity, so all three of you are saying that as Christians you pleaded many many times for God to “Reveal His existence” to you but it didn’t work. I’m not crystal clear on what “Reveal His existence” means to you three, but some questions that I was wondering about this is; would that include a surreal spiritual experience for you? Or would such revelation have to be more along the lines of something that would also cause a person standing next to you to be shocked/impressed as well?

I have heard different atheists complain about both. Some have told me that until they personally experience an unquestionable surreal spiritual experience inside of them then they will continue to think that “Spiritual experiences” are just over imaginations running wild. But some atheists won’t even entertain the possibility of that, they have just plainly told me that spiritual experiences are bogus period, and unless the revelation to them can objectively impress the person standing next to them it is nothing but active imagination. I can also give a third category of atheists that I have talked to, they WERE CONVINCED back when they were a Christian that they had true undeniable spiritual experience(s), but later on they came to the conclusion that it was just their overactive imagination. So three types;

1 - That’s wonderful that people talk about spiritual experiences, but until I have one personally (and it’s powerful enough to be convincing) it’s all bogus IMO.

2 - I THOUGHT that I had true spiritual experiences back when I was Christian, but I woke up to reality and realized that I was in self delusion.

3 - Give me a break with that spiritual experience crap, if you can’t detect it objectively then it’s all bogus.

It sounds like all three of you are saying that you are #1 but I could be wrong. Thanks

 

[Ken-1122]

Hello. Out of curiosity, so all three of you are saying that as Christians you pleaded many many times for God to “Reveal His existence” to you but it didn’t work. I’m not crystal clear on what “Reveal His existence” means to you three, but some questions that I was wondering about this is; would that include a surreal spiritual experience for you? Or would such revelation have to be more along the lines of something that would also cause a person standing next to you to be shocked/impressed as well?

I have heard different atheists complain about both. Some have told me that until they personally experience an unquestionable surreal spiritual experience inside of them then they will continue to think that “Spiritual experiences” are just over imaginations running wild. But some atheists won’t even entertain the possibility of that, they have just plainly told me that spiritual experiences are bogus period, and unless the revelation to them can objectively impress the person standing next to them it is nothing but active imagination. I can also give a third category of atheists that I have talked to, they WERE CONVINCED back when they were a Christian that they had true undeniable spiritual experience(s), but later on they came to the conclusion that it was just their overactive imagination. So three types;

1 - That’s wonderful that people talk about spiritual experiences, but until I have one personally (and it’s powerful enough to be convincing) it’s all bogus IMO.

2 - I THOUGHT that I had true spiritual experiences back when I was Christian, but I woke up to reality and realized that I was in self delusion.

3 - Give me a break with that spiritual experience crap, if you can’t detect it objectively then it’s all bogus.

It sounds like all three of you are saying that you are #1 but I could be wrong. Thanks

My personal experience; I was raised in a Christian family from birth. As a child I believed everything my parents and elders told me about God and everything else in life, at age 18 I decided I was going to try to find God for myself. At that time I was a regular in the Church pretending to be saved even though I knew I was not but everybody thought I was. My plan for finding God was to read the bible every day and pray to God for guidance and that he would save me. The problem with reading the bible every day was I read about a lot of the stuff in there I thought was unfair, could not be true, and morally wrong, but was afraid to admit it to myself. The problem with praying every day and asking for guidance, was I never received guidance, and I never felt my prayers were answered. After 4 years of trying at age 22 I gave up on trying to get saved; it was too painful, I hated myself because of my failure, and was confused and miserable. I prayed one final prayer explaining I will not be praying to get saved anymore, when you are ready for me, I am ready. After that prayer I felt a relief, and though I continued to go to church and fake it for a few more years, eventually I quit going, and eventually I quit believing. There are a lot of details I left out but that is the jest of my religious experience.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Hello. Out of curiosity, so all three of you are saying that as Christians you pleaded many many times for God to “Reveal His existence” to you but it didn’t work. I’m not crystal clear on what “Reveal His existence” means to you three, but some questions that I was wondering about this is; would that include a surreal spiritual experience for you? Or would such revelation have to be more along the lines of something that would also cause a person standing next to you to be shocked/impressed as well?

I have heard different atheists complain about both. Some have told me that until they personally experience an unquestionable surreal spiritual experience inside of them then they will continue to think that “Spiritual experiences” are just over imaginations running wild. But some atheists won’t even entertain the possibility of that, they have just plainly told me that spiritual experiences are bogus period, and unless the revelation to them can objectively impress the person standing next to them it is nothing but active imagination. I can also give a third category of atheists that I have talked to, they WERE CONVINCED back when they were a Christian that they had true undeniable spiritual experience(s), but later on they came to the conclusion that it was just their overactive imagination. So three types;

1 - That’s wonderful that people talk about spiritual experiences, but until I have one personally (and it’s powerful enough to be convincing) it’s all bogus IMO.

2 - I THOUGHT that I had true spiritual experiences back when I was Christian, but I woke up to reality and realized that I was in self delusion.

3 - Give me a break with that spiritual experience crap, if you can’t detect it objectively then it’s all bogus.

It sounds like all three of you are saying that you are #1 but I could be wrong. Thanks

#2 is closer.

 

[Jok]

My personal experience; I was raised in a Christian family from birth. As a child I believed everything my parents and elders told me about God and everything else in life, at age 18 I decided I was going to try to find God for myself. At that time I was a regular in the Church pretending to be saved even though I knew I was not but everybody thought I was. My plan for finding God was to read the bible every day and pray to God for guidance and that he would save me. The problem with reading the bible every day was I read about a lot of the stuff in there I thought was unfair, could not be true, and morally wrong, but was afraid to admit it to myself. The problem with praying every day and asking for guidance, was I never received guidance, and I never felt my prayers were answered. After 4 years of trying at age 22 I gave up on trying to get saved; it was too painful, I hated myself because of my failure, and was confused and miserable. I prayed one final prayer explaining I will not be praying to get saved anymore, when you are ready for me, I am ready. After that prayer I felt a relief, and though I continued to go to church and fake it for a few more years, eventually I quit going, and eventually I quit believing. There are a lot of details I left out but that is the jest of my religious experience.

Ok thanks, that’s definitely clear now. I like trying to understand people’s thoughts in here sometimes, and I noticed all three of you saying something that sounded similar.

Interesting experience for me just last month, a friend of mine has two daughters in college, die hard Christian family. Both daughters went to Christian schools as well. I always thought the entire family were Christians on pretty solid ground, I was shocked to learn that one of the daughters completely dumped the faith for a few years now. I did not grow up in a religious home like her or you, and I spent the entire day talking to her out of curiosity, just intrigued at what it must be like to go against a highly religious family. No doubt my intrigue was heightened because it was my friend’s family, and we had a long history of disagreements over a ton of things, and the thought of being his kid always made me laugh because he’s definitely the most intense and confrontational Christian that I know. Well she’s not thrown out of the house so that’s cool lol. Although his wife is the total opposite, the least confrontational Christian that I know.

 

[Jok]

#2 is closer.

Thanks. Yes I definitely know a lot of people who have said #2. For me personally I find that it’s a pretty even mixed bag of replies between 1, 2, or 3 when I ask people. I’m definitely interpreting Ken’s reply as a #1.