Can you have a Premillennial Kingdom with an Amillennial Christ?

[Jamdoc]

I am an Idealist. They, Partial Preterists, and Historicists, reject the error of Futurism.

Futurism is the only thing NOT trying to read things INTO scripture, but reading OUT of scripture into the world.

 

[Jamdoc]

Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is reigning now! He is reigning upon high now! He is King! He is Lord. All power and authority belongs to Him now. Your false teaching causes you to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today.

He testified after His resurrection: “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18). This is sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

How much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth.” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises all power and authority today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father's divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne as God and upon David's throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

John says in Revelation 3:7, “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath (present active particle) the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as God.

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Saviour and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as Lord.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

1 Timothy 6:13-16 says, “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate (dunastes or ruler, great authority or mighty), the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

He is going to reveal to mankind, time, and to the natural, what He is now in heaven, the invisible realm and in eternity. He "is (indeed) the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.”

This all confirms my previous contention after years of debating this matter in my 13 major reasons why I abandoned the Premil doctrine: Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

If Christ is not already King of kings, then neither is He already Lord of lords. But Revelation 17:14 tell us: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

This doesn't say He will eventually become Lord of lords and King of kings. It rather says that He is already that.

He is sovereign, but He's given stewardship to someone else.
You're not seeing the difference between sovereignty and stewardship.

 

[sovereigngrace]

no ... He was the first fruits of the harvest (of the earth) to follow.

Berean Study Bible
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

I have news for you, regardless of what your Premil teachers have taught you: Jesus conquered death and the grave 2000 years ago. That is why we do not die or go temporarily to Abraham's bosom upon death. That is why we reign with Christ today on earth and in heaven. That is why our bodies are going to be raised at the general resurrection at the end of the world.

There is only one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

 

[eleos1954]

Exactly, He was the first to defeat sin, death, the grave and Hades. He is the first resurrection. After His glorious resurrection, He testified in Revelation 1:18: "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Death and Hades are now defeated. The grave has been conquered. God's people who die go now to be with Jesus.

Defeated by not yet destroyed.

1 Corinthians 15:26

26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

 

[sovereigngrace]

He is sovereign, but He's given stewardship to someone else.
You're not seeing the difference between sovereignty and stewardship.

Give me one single New Testament scripture that says Jesus has given Satan stewardship and control of this world? That is fanciful, erroneous and unscriptural.

Sadly, you dethrone Christ from His eternal throne and you strip Him of all His divine authority. Your theology requires this to let the proverbial square peg go into the biblical round hole. This is just another reason why the reader should reject your doctrine. Your response confirms what every Amil here has discerned: you are constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. You portray a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In your doctrine, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. You are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, you portray an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

As for Satan still accusing the elect before the throne of God, your Premil teachers have again taught you wrong. Premil teaches their error as if the sinless life, atoning death and victorious first resurrection of Christ has not occurred. Satan is calling the shots and Christ is a king in waiting. This is a false gospel that needs challenged. Thankfully, more and more people are catching unto the error of Premil.

Premil is always exalting the influence of Satan. It portrays a small impotent Jesus, a powerless Church and a big devil. Amil and Postmil on the other hand have a big Jesus, a powerful Church and a small devil. There is multiple Scripture that shows the redeemed have power over Satan in this new covenant period. There is not one that says he has power over us. As the light is shone through the great commission, Satan is dethroned in the lives of humans and blindfolds are removed. Christ gave the Church power over Satan and his minions. They have authority to bind Satan and spoil his goods. We are the Lord's voice, hands and feet on this earth to enforce His will!

If the fall was the greatest tragedy that hit mankind, the cross was the biggest blessing. It confronted everything that was arrayed against us.

Justice demanded:

· Christ had to defeat sin – the source of man’s enslavement.
· He had to defeat Satan the instrument used to tempt man to sin.
· He had to defeat death (or the grave) the penalty of sin.
· He had to defeat Hades (or Abraham’s bosom) the prison of the righteous dead.
· He had to defeat eternal punishment – the just reward for unrepentant sinners.

This meant that none of these had any power over God’s people.

Revelation 12 takes us back to the First Advent and identifies the incarnation and glorious resurrection/ascent to give us a sense of timing. This is definitely not talking about, or concentrated upon, the second coming. The focus is the banishment of Satan from heaven and his ongoing defeat on earth by the scenes as they overcome him by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. Revelation 12 shows us what happened to Satan after sin, death, Satan and Hades had been defeated. It shows one major consequence for the devil. He lost his power of accusation. After all, sin had been paid for.

Before being cast out of heaven through Christ’s victorious assault on his kingdom the devil had access to both heaven and earth. He had the ability to come before God to accuse the brethren of their sins. When he was cast down he no longer had access to heaven but only to earth.

We know Satan is overcome because Christ overcame him. He can no longer accuse us before the throne of God, so he has to come to us direct down here and point the finger at us - that is if we listen him! Through the casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over.

The only power that Satan possesses is that which man gives him. If every single human being on this earth ignored him, he would be totally impotent. But, there is a twisted tendency within man that prefers the voice of Satan to the voice of God.

Revelation 12 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection / ascension: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Here, in correlation with Revelation 20, we see the end of Satan unchallenged deceiving of the Gentiles. John declares: "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ." How?

Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

Satan's defeat came after the resurrection. Here is when he got his eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

Christ predicted shortly before He destroyed the power of Satan at the cross, in John 12:30-33: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

Here was the time of his casting down - after the cross. Here was the time of the un-blinding of the nations (the Gentiles). Here Christ gloriously dethroned Satan from his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven. Satan’s movement, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.

 

[eleos1954]

I have news for you, regardless of what your Premil teachers have taught you: Jesus conquered death and the grave 2000 years ago. That is why we do not die or go temporarily to Abraham's bosom upon death. That is why we reign with Christ today on earth and in heaven. That is why are bodies are going to be raised at the general resurrection at the end of the world.

There is only one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Disagree ... the first general resurrection is yet to come.

Some of the saints (not all) were likewise resurrected.

Matthew 27
50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

It is clear in His Word there is 1,000 years in between the 1st & 2nd resurrections yet to come.

“The rest of the dead [those who were not saved] did not live again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).
“

 

[sovereigngrace]

Defeated by not yet destroyed.

1 Corinthians 15:26

26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

That occurs at the climactic second resurrection when Jesus returns in majesty and glory to usher in eternity.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Disagree ... the first general resurrection is yet to come.

Some of the saints (not all) were likewise resurrected.

Matthew 27
50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

It is clear in His Word there is 1,000 years in between the 1st & 2nd resurrections yet to come.

“The rest of the dead [those who were not saved] did not live again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).
“

Like Lazarus, they too would have still died physically. The redeemed are not raised physically until Christ returns. They are caught up at death in spirit to be with Christ until the climactic return of Christ to introduce everlasting perfection.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says, “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

The focus of 1 Thessalonians 4 is concentrated solely upon the Christian dead. The reason is: Paul was actually comforting the believers in regard to the fate and future of their dead brethren. This is seen in the four references to such in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 says, “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep … For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him … we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”

This in no way negates a general resurrection at the second coming. It is simply addressing one of many issues at the coming of Christ.

Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Please notice “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” We are not just looking at the righteous, we are looking at both the righteous and the wicked. The passage goes on to confirm: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” All that are in the graves will come forth when He comes. The righteous will be ushered into His glorious kingdom, the wicked shall be damned for all eternity in the lake of fire.

The righteous and wicked dead all rise in response to the same sovereign voice - Christ's. Christ’s description of the resurrection depicts a unitary event, albeit in two parts. Part 1 is the elect; Part 2 is the wicked. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

There is no 1,000 years’ separation mentioned or hinted at in here.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Disagree ... the first general resurrection is yet to come.

Some of the saints (not all) were likewise resurrected.

Matthew 27
50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

It is clear in His Word there is 1,000 years in between the 1st & 2nd resurrections yet to come.

“The rest of the dead [those who were not saved] did not live again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).
“

You have no grasp of what the first resurrection is. That is why you do not grasp Rev 20.

 

[Jamdoc]

Give me one single New Testament scripture that says Jesus has given Satan stewardship and control of this world? That is fanciful, erroneous and unscriptural.

Sadly, you dethrone Christ from His eternal throne and you strip Him of all His divine authority. Your theology requires this to let the proverbial square peg go into the biblical round hole. This is just another reason why the reader should reject your doctrine. Your response confirms what every Amil here has discerned: you are constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. You portray a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In your doctrine, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. You are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, you portray an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

As for Satan still accusing the elect before the throne of God, your Premil teachers have again taught you wrong. Premil teaches their error as if the sinless life, atoning death and victorious first resurrection of Christ has not occurred. Satan is calling the shots and Christ is a king in waiting. This is a false gospel that needs challenged. Thankfully, more and more people are catching unto the error of Premil.

Premil is always exalting the influence of Satan. It portrays a small impotent Jesus, a powerless Church and a big devil. Amil and Postmil on the other hand have a big Jesus, a powerful Church and a small devil. There is multiple Scripture that shows the redeemed have power over Satan in this new covenant period. There is not one that says he has power over us. As the light is shone through the great commission, Satan is dethroned in the lives of humans and blindfolds are removed. Christ gave the Church power over Satan and his minions. They have authority to bind Satan and spoil his goods. We are the Lord's voice, hands and feet on this earth to enforce His will!

If the fall was the greatest tragedy that hit mankind, the cross was the biggest blessing. It confronted everything that was arrayed against us.

Justice demanded:

· Christ had to defeat sin – the source of man’s enslavement.
· He had to defeat Satan the instrument used to tempt man to sin.
· He had to defeat death (or the grave) the penalty of sin.
· He had to defeat Hades (or Abraham’s bosom) the prison of the righteous dead.
· He had to defeat eternal punishment – the just reward for unrepentant sinners.

This meant that none of these had any power over God’s people.

Revelation 12 takes us back to the First Advent and identifies the incarnation and glorious resurrection/ascent to give us a sense of timing. This is definitely not talking about, or concentrated upon, the second coming. The focus is the banishment of Satan from heaven and his ongoing defeat on earth by the scenes as they overcome him by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. Revelation 12 shows us what happened to Satan after sin, death, Satan and Hades had been defeated. It shows one major consequence for the devil. He lost his power of accusation. After all, sin had been paid for.

Before being cast out of heaven through Christ’s victorious assault on his kingdom the devil had access to both heaven and earth. He had the ability to come before God to accuse the brethren of their sins. When he was cast down he no longer had access to heaven but only to earth.

We know Satan is overcome because Christ overcame him. He can no longer accuse us before the throne of God, so he has to come to us direct down here and point the finger at us - that is if we listen him! Through the casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over.

The only power that Satan possesses is that which man gives him. If every single human being on this earth ignored him, he would be totally impotent. But, there is a twisted tendency within man that prefers the voice of Satan to the voice of God.

Revelation 12 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection / ascension: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Here, in correlation with Revelation 20, we see the end of Satan unchallenged deceiving of the Gentiles. John declares: "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ." How?

Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

Satan's defeat came after the resurrection. Here is when he got his eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

Christ predicted shortly before He destroyed the power of Satan at the cross, in John 12:30-33: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

Here was the time of his casting down - after the cross. Here was the time of the un-blinding of the nations (the Gentiles). Here Christ gloriously dethroned Satan from his previous, largely unchallenged, global earthly rule and his place of accusation in heaven. Satan’s movement, liberties and sway on earth and in heaven received a severe blow.

2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Who is Paul referring to as the god of this world? It's not Jesus, because the god of this world is opposed to the gospel.

Luke 4:5-6

5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Right there Satan says power over the earth was DELIVERED UNTO HIM. Someone gave him this power, who could give power over God's footstool to the enemy?

and if you want to say "well that was before the cross" then, like I posted above, Paul refers to Satan as god (note little g) of this world, and furthermore Revelation 13:2

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Under your erroneous historicist/preterist interpretation, Satan has no power to delegate, no authority to give. But here at the end of days scripture says he has power, a seat, and authority to delegate to someone, just as he offered to Jesus.

God gave Satan stewardship, and Satan will give it to the Antichrist, then God will pour his wrath on the earth and strip stewardship away from anyone else, it's His to reclaim and at the 7th trumpet that is what He does. there are no more stewards at that time, until the millennial kingdom in which some positions of authority will be granted to the saints.

 

[eleos1954]

Like Lazarus, they too would have still died physically. The redeemed are not raised physically until Christ returns. They are caught up at death in spirit to be with Christ until the climactic return of Christ to introduce everlasting perfection.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says, “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

The focus of 1 Thessalonians 4 is concentrated solely upon the Christian dead. The reason is: Paul was actually comforting the believers in regard to the fate and future of their dead brethren. This is seen in the four references to such in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 says, “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep … For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him … we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”

This in no way negates a general resurrection at the second coming. It is simply addressing one of many issues at the coming of Christ.

Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

Please notice “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” We are not just looking at the righteous, we are looking at both the righteous and the wicked. The passage goes on to confirm: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” All that are in the graves will come forth when He comes. The righteous will be ushered into His glorious kingdom, the wicked shall be damned for all eternity in the lake of fire.

The righteous and wicked dead all rise in response to the same sovereign voice - Christ's. Christ’s description of the resurrection depicts a unitary event, albeit in two parts. Part 1 is the elect; Part 2 is the wicked. Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” Evidently there is only one resurrection albeit involving two separated aspects: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

There is no 1,000 years’ separation mentioned or hinted at in here.

Revelation 20 .... satan is bound (to a desolate earth) for the 1,000 years the saved are in heaven .... THEN the 2nd resurrection of the condemned happens.

Revelation 20

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit (abyss), and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Disagree ... the first general resurrection is yet to come.

Some of the saints (not all) were likewise resurrected.

Matthew 27
50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

It is clear in His Word there is 1,000 years in between the 1st & 2nd resurrections yet to come.

“The rest of the dead [those who were not saved] did not live again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).
“

You are locating the first resurrection at the first advent.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 20 .... satan is bound (to a desolate earth) for the 1,000 years the saved are in heaven .... THEN the 2nd resurrection of the condemned happens.

Revelation 20

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit (abyss), and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Everything you say here reinforces the Amil position.

 

[eleos1954]

You are locating the first resurrection at the first advent.

Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection (the saved)! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead (the lost) did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

*If there is a first .... there is a second.

17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[sovereigngrace]

2 Corinthians 4:4


Who is Paul referring to as the god of this world? It's not Jesus, because the god of this world is opposed to the gospel.

Luke 4:5-6


Right there Satan says power over the earth was DELIVERED UNTO HIM. Someone gave him this power, who could give power over God's footstool to the enemy?

and if you want to say "well that was before the cross" then, like I posted above, Paul refers to Satan as god (note little g) of this world, and furthermore Revelation 13:2


Under your erroneous historicist/preterist interpretation, Satan has no power to delegate, no authority to give. But here at the end of days scripture says he has power, a seat, and authority to delegate to someone, just as he offered to Jesus.

God gave Satan stewardship, and Satan will give it to the Antichrist, then God will pour his wrath on the earth and strip stewardship away from anyone else, it's His to reclaim and at the 7th trumpet that is what He does. there are no more stewards at that time, until the millennial kingdom in which some positions of authority will be granted to the saints.

2 Corinthians 4:4


Who is Paul referring to as the god of this world? It's not Jesus, because the god of this world is opposed to the gospel.

Luke 4:5-6


Right there Satan says power over the earth was DELIVERED UNTO HIM. Someone gave him this power, who could give power over God's footstool to the enemy?

and if you want to say "well that was before the cross" then, like I posted above, Paul refers to Satan as god (note little g) of this world, and furthermore Revelation 13:2


Under your erroneous historicist/preterist interpretation, Satan has no power to delegate, no authority to give. But here at the end of days scripture says he has power, a seat, and authority to delegate to someone, just as he offered to Jesus.

God gave Satan stewardship, and Satan will give it to the Antichrist, then God will pour his wrath on the earth and strip stewardship away from anyone else, it's His to reclaim and at the 7th trumpet that is what He does. there are no more stewards at that time, until the millennial kingdom in which some positions of authority will be granted to the saints.

He is the god of this world, not the world of believers. He rules in their realm, not ours. Satan reigns over the wicked world out there. 1 John 4:4 explains it well: "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."

I can assure you he is not in control of my world. Christians are not of the world, they are of the true believing blood-bought Church!!! We are in the world but not of this world. Jesus said in John 15:19, "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."

God warns in I John 2:15, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”

James 4:4 agrees, saying, “know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”

The god of this world is Satan.
The God of the Church is Yahweh.

The world is under the control of the devil and is completely in wickedness.
The Church is NOT of this world – it is holy and separated unto God – as His purchased possession.

Christ rules as king over all principalities and powers today since the first resurrection.

To sustain the Premil doctrine you have to ignore/reject the injury Satan sustained through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. You have to ignore/reject the victorious New Testament message that Satan is a defeated foe that has been stripped of his previous power and influence through the spiritual binding in spiritual chains. You have to ignore/reject the Gospel expanse to the Gentiles in the great commission. You have to present an unrestrained Satan being able to do whatever he wants (including thwart the Gospel). You have a BIG devil and a small god, a powerful kingdom of darkness and a weak kingdom of God.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

The Gospel influence was completely curtailed among the nations by “the god of this world” (who is Satan) who “blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The door of opportunity was tightly closed to the Gentile people.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection (the saved)! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead (the lost) did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

*If there is a first .... there is a second.

17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Rev 20 relates to the intra-Advent period.

Do you believe in corroboration?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection (the saved)! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead (the lost) did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

*If there is a first .... there is a second.

17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

You highlight the statement “the dead in Christ shall rise first” as proof that “the first resurrection” occurs at the second coming. The only problem is: there is another group here outside of “the dead in Christ” who Premils insist are actually participants in “the first resurrection” that are not included in “the dead in Christ” and who are actually raised second – those “which are alive and remain.” The very usage of “first” is used to simply distinguish between the raising of the dead in Christ at the second coming and the raising of the live in Christ, not between the resurrection of the righteous when Jesus comes and the raising of the wicked 1,000 years+ after Jesus comes. Premil is faced with a major conundrum here: those “which are alive and remain” when Jesus comes are excluded from the Premil “first resurrection” and therefore the only expressed means of victory over “the second death.”

What they need to see is: there are two parties here. The "first" are "the dead in Christ" alone! The second are the 'live in Christ' alone! The word "first" is simply to show order at the general resurrection. The dead rise first and the “live” rise second. 1 Thessalonians 4 is simply showing order.

 

[Timtofly]

You have no grasp of what the first resurrection. That is why you do not grasp nRev 20.

You do not either. Why would we have to physically die twice? That is an impotent amil god, that declares we physically die twice. Those were the righteous that were given incorruptible bodies and ascended to Paradise. The Premill God already allows those in Christ to have the incorruptible body, Paul says belongs to those in Christ in Paradise. That is who God brings back in the Second Coming. Amil has a god that leaves souls in a state of death waiting for their incorruptible body.

All power is given to the church over the spiritual and physical rulers of darkness. Premill acknowledges those facts more than Amil who leave those in Christ in death without a bodily resurrection. The OT believers have incorruptible bodies and had a bodily resurrection at the Cross, and every NT believers is immediately in bodily form in Paradise, upon physical death. That is the might and sovereignty of the Premill God. There is no second death that can have power over them. That is the meaning, not that the church has to wait for a bodily resurrection.

Premill also accepts the Sovereignty of God and a final Sabbath of 1000 years, as promised in Revelation 20. There will be incorruptible bodies physically living on earth, separate from the church. Amil god cannot stand Satan actually bound in sheol for 1000 years way above and beyond current conditions, because amil god only last 2000 years instead of 3000.

It is not because God is weak, that sinful humanity grows more wicked. It is because God limited sin to 6000 years. However that time is coming to an end very soon. When sin is finished, this current condition can have a Holy Sabbath, that all will remember, then the NHNE. Amil limit their god. Premill give God all the credit and glory, including Revelation 20 where God keeps his promise to Adam and Abraham. Premill God has had Christ in full authority spiritually and physically. It is all the harlot churches theology, heresy, denying God’s Word, and teaching their own human understanding that has let God down. They have been the unfaithful stewards listening to Satan who will be punished accordingly. Denying God His final Sabbath is a travesty that goes way beyond those wicked servants in the OT, who forgot the weekly Sabbath. God will not be mocked. Whatever a man sows, that will he also reap. Let God be true, and those who deny the Millennium Sabbath held accountable for their unwise stewardship.

The Millennium is not heretical. It is clearly spelled out in Revelation 20. If Amil are correct, all the OT saints are physically alive walking around on earth to this day, because of the first resurrection of Revelation 20, that happened 1990 years ago, by their false claims. They either claim they died again even though the second death is impossible. Or there is still that first resurrection of a physical incorruptible body, immediately following the battle of Armageddon. The one that fulfills the Resurrection to everlasting life, and everlasting damnation. This is not about the church, but the promise Jesus made to his disciples and the final harvest of all mankind.

There is a physical covenant with Adam and Abraham. There is a spiritual covenant with Adam and Abraham. The church will complete the spiritual covenant. The Sabbath Millennium which Amil reject, that physical cornerstone, which also fulfills the physical covenant. Yes some Premill, well most Premill, do not understand the whole truth, but amil and post-mill do not get to throw the baby out with the bathwater. They do not get to insert their own interpretation into God’s Word. They need to understand like all the rest of sin nature blinded humanity. The Word of God cannot be twisted, and glorify God at the same time. We are going to see it all play out in the coming years. Best be prepared.

 

[Jamdoc]

He is the god of this world, not the world of believers. He rules in their realm, not ours. Satan reigns over the wicked world out there. 1 John 4:4 explains it well: "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."

I can assure you he is not in control of my world. Christians are not of the world, they are of the true believing blood-bought Church!!! We are in the world but not of this world. Jesus said in John 15:19, "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."

God warns in I John 2:15, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”

James 4:4 agrees, saying, “know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”

The god of this world is Satan.
The God of the Church is Yahweh.

The world is under the control of the devil and is completely in wickedness.
The Church is NOT of this world – it is holy and separated unto God – as His purchased possession.

Christ rules as king over all principalities and powers today since the first resurrection.

To sustain the Premil doctrine you have to ignore/reject the injury Satan sustained through the life, death and resurrection of Christ. You have to ignore/reject the victorious New Testament message that Satan is a defeated foe that has been stripped of his previous power and influence through the spiritual binding in spiritual chains. You have to ignore/reject the Gospel expanse to the Gentiles in the great commission. You have to present an unrestrained Satan being able to do whatever he wants (including thwart the Gospel). You have a BIG devil and a small god, a powerful kingdom of darkness and a weak kingdom of God.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

The Gospel influence was completely curtailed among the nations by “the god of this world” (who is Satan) who “blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Corinthians 4:4). The door of opportunity was tightly closed to the Gentile people.

Okay I agree there's a spiritual kingdom that Jesus currently rules, I've never debated that.
You just confirmed that Satan rules on the physical earth though, delegated to do so by God.
I'm just telling you, that Jesus will reclaim rightful rulership of the physical Earth AS WELL. You deny that. When Jesus takes that rulership of the physical Earth, when he strips Satan and the beast of the delegated authority, He establishes a physical kingdom on this Earth, and everyone, believer or not, WILL Acknowledge Him as King of King and Lord of Lords. This isn't only believers, EVERYONE EVERY SINGLE ONE. They could be a totally committed Luciferian, but they WILL NOT BE ABLE to deny that Christ is THEIR King, when He returns and the kingdoms of the earth are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

EVERY Knee shall bow and EVERY tongue shall swear.

 

[eleos1954]

Everything you say here reinforces the Amil position.

no ..... not amil

The Second Coming of Jesus Christ marks the beginning of the Millennium. At the second coming, the righteous dead will be resurrected (the "first resurrection", Revelation 20:5), and both they and the righteous living at that time will be taken to heaven to reign with Christ for 1000 years.

The rest of mankind (the wicked, or unrighteous) living at His coming will be killed at the second coming, leaving the earth devoid of human life with the 2nd resurrection of the dead lost happening after the 1,000 years in heaven are spent.

The earth is desolate for the 1,000 years and satan has no one to tempt.

After the 1,000 years ... the 2nd resurrection happens ... the battle of Gog and Magog happens and God then destroys the earth and everything in it with eternal fire... including all the wicked lost, satan and his minions.

God then makes everything new.