Suppose we gave you abortion.

[Xenophon]

You must be a Yankee.

Nope. I'm Appalachian.

 

[Albion]

Apparently, for conservative Christians--it's socialism, don't you know.

I think that was the point.

You proposed giving up state-sanctioned murder, which is obviously a moral issue, in return for a choice of political concessions you labelled "Christian issues" as though Christianity were essentially a political movement rather than a religion.

 

[Belk]

Are you implying I’m old?

Implying? No. Statements of fact are never implied.

 

[cow451]

Implying? No. Statements of fact are never implied.

A poster is deeply lacerated.

 

[Belk]

I think that was the point.

You proposed giving up state-sanctioned murder, which is obviously a moral issue, in return for a choice of political concessions you labelled "Christian issues" as though Christianity were essentially a political movement rather than a religion.

<Looks at US politics and the intersection of religion over the last 30 years>. Yes, that is what it looks like from my point of view.

 

[jgarden]

Suppose the Left was willing to give you abortion--no questions asked, you could write any laws about it you wanted. Which of the other "hot button" Christian issues would you be willing to give in return? Gun control? Single-payer health care? Amnesty for Central American refugees? Politics is the art of compromise. What have you got to offer?

Countries Where Abortion Is Illegal 2020

The World Health Organization (WHO) has reported on the number of abortions performed in all countries, whether abortion is legal or illegal. According to the findings of the World Health Organization, the legality of abortion across the world has little to no effect on how many abortions take place every year. The legality of abortion, however, does affect the number of safe abortions women are having.

Countries Where Abortion Is Illegal 2020
*************************************************************************************************************
The train has already long since left the station on this issue and even if the Supreme Court were to overturn Roe v Wade tomorrow, America's young women are not about to grant elderly, wealthy white, conservative politicians in Washington, who know nothing their personal circumstances, have control over their lives!

International studies have also concluded that making abortion illegal has had no significant impact on the abortion rates in those jurisdictions - all it achieves is driving abortion underground where the medical safeguards no longer exist!

The current economic situation, where millions of American families who remain unemployed through no fault of their own, starts a 3rd week of living without benefits - such instability and political indifference can only serve to reinforce decisions being made by the nation's young women that now is not the time to proceed with a full-term pregnancy!

 

[jgarden]

Abortion Law: Global Comparisons
October 28, 2019

Abortion rates are relatively similar between countries with highly restrictive abortion laws and those where the procedure is permitted without restriction, at between 34 and 37 per 1,000 women annually [PDF], but the safety of the procedure diverges widely: almost 90 percent of abortions in countries with liberal abortion laws are considered safe, compared with only 25 percent of those in countries in which abortion is banned.

Abortion Law: Global Comparisons
**************************************************************************************************************
What Life is Like When Abortion is Banned
June 10, 2019

Research from around the world has shown that banning abortion doesn’t stop it from happening — it just drives it underground.

What Life is Like When Abortion is Banned
**************************************************************************************************************
The 9 countries with the most draconian abortion laws in the world
Dec 15, 2016

CHILE - The risk of spending time in prison doesn't seem to stop women from illegally, and unsafely terminating their pregnancies. A national study in 1990 estimated that 160,000 women terminated their pregnancies, and more recent numbers range between 60,000 and 300,000 abortions each year.

The 9 countries with the most draconian abortion laws in the world

 

[cow451]

I think that was the point.

You proposed giving up state-sanctioned murder, which is obviously a moral issue, in return for a choice of political concessions you labelled "Christian issues" as though Christianity were essentially a political movement rather than a religion.

Evangelical Christianity appears to be primarily a political movement, unfortunately.

 

[cow451]

Nope. I'm Appalachian.

Ok. West Virginia?

 

[Speedwell]

I think that was the point.

You proposed giving up state-sanctioned murder, which is obviously a moral issue, in return for a choice of political concessions you labelled "Christian issues" as though Christianity were essentially a political movement rather than a religion.

Don't blame me if you volunteered for it. All of those issues are championed by Trump's right wing Christian supporters and few others. But maybe it's just a coincidence. As I said above, you can think of them as Social Conservative issues instead, if you like.

 

[Albion]

Don't blame me if you volunteered for it. All of those issues are championed by Trump's right wing Christian supporters and few others.

They're political issues, not religious ones.

And here's something to think about for a moment...religion is a characteristic of political conservatism, so it's not a big surprise that many Christians are also political moderates or conservatives.

 

[Speedwell]

They're political issues, not religious ones.

And here's something to think about for a moment...religion is a characteristic of political conservatism, so it's not a big surprise that many Christians are also political moderates or conservatives.

No, it's not a surprise, nor is it a surprise that under those circumstances biblical justification is used to promote those issues. It is somewhat disappointing that those on the other side of any of them are denounced as not "real" Christians. Altogether I would have to say that if any of those issues have been identified as specifically Christian issues in the present political climate it is Trump's Christian supporters who have created that impression. Yes, it is possible to be a Christian, even a conservative Christian, without insisting that Jesus hates gun control or thinks global warming is a hoax, but we are talking political reality, not theoretical considerations of doctrine.

 

[Albion]

Yes, it is possible to be a Christian, even a conservative Christian, without insisting that Jesus hates gun control or thinks global warming is a hoax, but we are talking political reality, not theoretical considerations of doctrine.

I didn't think the OP could be made even less in synch with reality, but this modification does it. All that this change does is insert Jesus into the still-political question being asked.

 

[Speedwell]

I didn't think the OP could be made even less in synch with reality, but this modification does it. All that this change does is insert Jesus into the still-political question being asked.

It's not me who is inserting it. I personally believe that all of the issues I mentioned except for abortion and LGBTs are secular political issues. It's not me who has made them a litmus test of Christianity.

 

[Albion]

It's not me who is inserting it.

You did write Post #32, right?

Yes, it is possible to be a Christian, even a conservative Christian, without insisting that Jesus hates gun control or thinks global warming is a hoax, but we are talking political reality, not theoretical considerations of doctrine.

 

[Speedwell]

You did write Post #32, right?

It's an observation of a certain political faction, not something I am imposing on them.

 

[Albion]

It's an observation of a certain political faction, not something I am imposing on them.

Aside from the fact that "a certain political faction" was not the subject of the OP...

...of course it was the case that the concessions you suggested be made by Christians in general were all political POVs and policies, not religious ones.

See both points in this excerpt from the OP--

Which of the other "hot button" Christian issues would you be willing to give in return? Gun control? Single-payer health care? Amnesty for Central American refugees?

 

[Speedwell]

Aside from the fact that "a certain political faction" was not the subject of the OP...

...of course it was the case that the concessions you suggested be made by Christians in general were all political POVs and policies, not religious ones.

See both points in this excerpt from the OP--

Don't be coy--we both know that we are not talking about Christians "in general."

 

[driewerf]

The "wish list" of Trump's Christian Right supporters:

No abortion
No "out" LGBTs
No amnesty for Central American refugees
No gun control
No single-payer health care
No action on global warming
No DACA
...etc.

At least two points on your list are not just yes-no, or on-off subjects.With gun control and global warming action there could be -- and would be -- a lot of discussion about how much and what type of control / action would be given. There is a whole broad continuum of measures possible with these subjects

 

[Speedwell]

At least two points on your list are not just yes-no, or on-off subjects.With gun control and global warming action there could be -- and would be -- a lot of discussion about how much and what type of control / action would be given. There is a whole broad continuum of measures possible with these subjects

I understand the positions to be that with gun control, any control at all is part of a conspiracy to disarm the populace entirely and with global warming that it's nothing but a hoax to allow the imposition of an atheist totalitarian government. So in a way those are yes/no questions as well.