LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

[Tra Phull]

What army was Joseph Smith a general in?

 

[Esperanza_Mia]

What army was Joseph Smith a general in?

The military unit was called the Nauvoo Legion.

 

[Tra Phull]

Thx

 

[Ironhold]

Thx

To be more specific, when Nauvoo received its charter from the state of Illinois, it was given the legal ability to raise its own militia, with the mayor being the default commander.

Critics of the church often try to make hay of images showing Joseph Smith in a gaudy officer's outfit for those instances where he led the militia in drills and parades. What they fail to realize is that as modern forms of communication and coordination did not exist back then, it was very common for military officers to wear gaudy outfits so that their soldiers could see them and recognize them on sight.

It's for this same reason that most units had someone carrying their flags (both the national flag and the unit flag) and some mix of musicians (like drummers, pipers, and fifers): they were means of communication and coordination. Movies made about the US Civil War often make a big deal of people trying to capture the other side's colors, and in reality that *was* a big deal as stealing the other side's flag could cause confusion and demoralize them. Several soldiers were in fact honored for ensuring that their unit's colors remained raised even at great risk to themselves.

During the American Revolution, at least one Continental unit - a group we today would regard as essentially being commandos - did make it a point to snipe at British officers simply because their gaudy outfits meant that they could be identified at a distance and the then-current structure of the British military meant that killing an officer could neutralize their entire unit. For obvious reasons, most of the more advanced world militaries quickly moved away from having their officers in gaudy combat uniforms as soon as improvements to communication systems allowed for it.

 

[He is the way]

Only as far as the LDS are concerned. No one else believes it. And people make up stories all the time, just head on down to your nearest library and check out the fiction section. There are far more intricately written stories. They still have libraries don't they?

It is a good thing the Book of Mormon is not fiction. Joseph Smith was indeed a true prophet of God.

 

[mmksparbud]

It is a good thing the Book of Mormon is not fiction. Joseph Smith was indeed a true prophet of God.

Like I said---only to the LDS.

 

[He is the way]

well, I think we have an interesting situation here!

I think Joseph Smith was a literary genius.
as I understand it, he had only a very basic education.
yet he wrote things in such a way that people still pour over them today.
this in itself, of course, is not proof of divine inspiration.
Mozart did similar things in the world of music.

and I think Smith was also very spiritually sensitive, such that he could write on spiritual topics in a way that people like to hear.
not necessarily the truth, but in a way that people's spirits will respond to.

I have a very strong interior sensation that the book of Abraham is not reliable history in the sense that we think of history today.

I would say that Smith's writings came from God in the sense that he had the God-given ability to "prophesy".
he probably did some good, but in some cases turned his gifts to his own ends, in much the same way that the prophet Balaam did.

Having studied the life of Joseph Smith, I know that most of his prophecies have come true and the rest will also come to pass. Many miracles also happened during his life, and many people saw those miracles happen. There have also been miracles after his death. I am grateful to God for all that He does to continue to bless our lives. I believe that things are going to change quickly now and the prophecies of the last days will be fulfilled.

 

[Leaf473]

Having studied the life of Joseph Smith, I know that most of his prophecies have come true and the rest will also come to pass. Many miracles also happened during his life, and many people saw those miracles happen. There have also been miracles after his death. I am grateful to God for all that He does to continue to bless our lives. I believe that things are going to change quickly now and the prophecies of the last days will be fulfilled.

as I'm sure you know, Balaam gave prophecies that blessed the children of Israel.
and he also used his skills for evil ends, things that benefited him.

Pharaoh's magicians performed miracles.

Moses spoke with God face to face, and then did things that prevented him from entering the promised Land.

is being led by the spirit the essence of Mormonism?
if so, it seems that the important thing would be following the spirit, not a particular person, whether Moses, Smith, or the current prophet.

would you agree with that?

 

[He is the way]

Only as far as the LDS are concerned. No one else believes it. And people make up stories all the time, just head on down to your nearest library and check out the fiction section. There are far more intricately written stories. They still have libraries don't they?

Have you seen the Bible or the Book of Mormon in the fiction section?

 

[He is the way]

as I'm sure you know, Balaam gave prophecies that blessed the children of Israel.
and he also used his skills for evil ends, things that benefited him.

Pharaoh's magicians performed miracles.

Moses spoke with God face to face, and then did things that prevented him from entering the promised Land.

is being led by the spirit the essence of Mormonism?
if so, it seems that the important thing would be following the spirit, not a particular person, whether Moses, Smith, or the current prophet.

would you agree with that?

There is a way to know:

(Book of Mormon | Moroni 7:4 - 18)

4 And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men.
5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

 

[mmksparbud]

Have you seen the Bible or the Book of Mormon in the fiction section?

I never looked for the BOM in a Library. I read it on line. It would not be, for it would be filed under religion. Which, of course, most of the world considers the bi8ble to be fiction. But all books dealing with spiritual matters are filed under religion, including Buddhists, Hindu and so forth. I worked at a library once for about a year.

There is a way to know:

There definitely is a way, according to the bible.

Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Also every prophet must point to the scriptures for truth, and every prophecy must come true and no prophet ever points to himself or in any way exalts himself. JS is thoroughly lacking in all points. His angel of light was the 1st indication that he was not of God, for it declared the scriptures have been corrupted and he pointed away from them to the the exaltation of JS, not God. He should have run from those visions---if indeed they were that, and said "Depart from me Satan."
I once had a visitation as my husband was dying---I grabbed my bible and started reading out loud, as loud as I could (don't remember where, I just opened and read I believe from the Psalms). It was not an apparition, but a feeling of a presence. It went away shortly after I started reading. If it had been an angel of light I would have repeated what Jesus said to Peter. No angel from God would ever declare the scriptures corrupted. The priests certainly were, and they preached different from the scriptures, but the scriptures themselves were always maintained as God always had a remnant to do so. If JS had taken the time to read up on history of the church, he would have known this--the church always persecuted those that had the scriptures---Like the Waldenses. If the scriptures had been corrupted, there would have been no need to hide them and actually chain them down and only allowed Priests to read them. There were always some who kept the scriptures and died to give them to others. And there is enough of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS to know that Jesus read the same scriptures we have today. But then, he did not know about them yet.

 

[Leaf473]

There is a way to know:

(Book of Mormon | Moroni 7:4 - 18)

4 And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men.
5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

well, considering the test...
does it apply to people?
or words spoken or written, like a prophecy?

how would that test apply to Balaam or his prophecies?

 

[Dale]

Indeed, I believe Joseph Smith clearly came to understand how to get someone's attention, as with the translation of a chance discovery of papyri into scripture. Depending on whether you're a believer or not, you might consider it to be prophetic tongue or utter nonsense.

From the Joseph Smith Papers, his Appeal to the Green Mountain Boys, December 1843, the prophet declares these gifts:

General Joseph Smith’s Appeal to the Green Mountain Boys, December 1843, Page 3

Were I a Chaldean I would exclaim: Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah. (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.)

An Egyptian: Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?) A Grecian: Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.) A Frenchman: Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God A Turk. Ain shems: (The fountain of light.) A German: sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!) A Syrian: Zaubol. (Sacrifice!) A Spaniard: ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.) A Samaritan: Saunau! (O Stranger!) An Italian: Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!) A Hebrew: Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.) A Dane: Hyad tidende! (What tidings!) A Saxon: Hwaet riht! (What right!) A Sweede: Hyad skilia: (What skill!) A Polander: Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.) A Western Indian: She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.) A Roman: Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!) But as I am I will only add: when the wicked rule the people mourn.

Those of you who speak foreign languages can do the translation yourself. Smith was either wrong or unintelligible much of the time. I speak fluent Spanish, and what he proclaims to say in my language wasn't my language - even two centuries ago. And our Egyptian friends will tell you that Smith's Egyptian is meaningless.

Was the man gifted? In some ways. In total, hard to know what to make of it all...

Thanks for this info. I wasn't aware of this one.

 

[Dale]

Again, see post #106 for Dr. Ritner's explanation as to why this sort of thing is bunk. There is no reason to expect a much longer and altogether disconnected story to be present on any missing bits of the existing JS papyri, and as far as I can tell from watching interviews with Dr. Ritner on this topic, what we have now is basically the complete text, matching in content, style, and length other Egyptian funerary scrolls, and again containing absolutely nothing at all about Abraham.

So it's really a problem for the Mormon narrative that you apparently recognize this or that fragment of the existing scroll as being connected to the BOA, because what has been translated shows no connection to the Mormon text. So it wouldn't matter if we had 10%, 5%, or whatever percent of the scroll, because we can tell (thanks to academics like Dr. Ritner) what was on it, and compare it to the text of the BOA, and see that they do not match up at all. If you claim otherwise, you're quite simply wrong.

Dzheremi: "There is no reason to expect a much longer and altogether disconnected story to be present on any missing bits of the existing JS papyri, and as far as I can tell from watching interviews with Dr. Ritner on this topic, what we have now is basically the complete text, matching in content, style, and length other Egyptian funerary scrolls, and again containing absolutely nothing at all about Abraham."


This is a good point. It is possible to sound out Ab-Ra-Ham in Egyptian hieroglyphs. At first glance, it looks like an entirely ideographic language but it does have a phonetic element. That is one reason it took European scholars so long to figure out how to translate it, they though it was ideographic and didn't realize that it is partly phonetic. I have read translations of some ancient Egyptian documents and they frequently contain puns, which are only possible in a language that is phonetic or partly phonetic.

It is possible to say Ab-Ra-Ham in hieroglyphs but this isn't found in the JS papyrus that we have.

 

[He is the way]

well, considering the test...
does it apply to people?
or words spoken or written, like a prophecy?

how would that test apply to Balaam or his prophecies?

Balaam was indeed a prophet and received revelation from God. He did make some mistakes as did Jonah who tried to run away. Balaam tried to leave early in the morning and was stopped by an angel of the Lord. He also asked God at least 3 times the same thing. Joseph Smith did a similar thing by asking the Lord a few times if Martin Harris, serving as his scribe, could let his wife see the manuscript. The manuscript, known as the Book of Lehi and referred to by Joseph Smith as written on 116 pages, was lost or stolen. As a result, Joseph Smith was rebuked by the Lord and lost the ability to translate for a time. That being said all three of them, Jonah, Balaam, and Joseph Smith, completed the work God gave them to do.

 

[Leaf473]

Balaam was indeed a prophet and received revelation from God. He did make some mistakes as did Jonah who tried to run away. Balaam tried to leave early in the morning and was stopped by an angel of the Lord. He also asked God at least 3 times the same thing. Joseph Smith did a similar thing by asking the Lord a few times if Martin Harris, serving as his scribe, could let his wife see the manuscript. The manuscript, known as the Book of Lehi and referred to by Joseph Smith as written on 116 pages, was lost or stolen. As a result, Joseph Smith was rebuked by the Lord and lost the ability to translate for a time. That being said all three of them, Jonah, Balaam, and Joseph Smith, completed the work God gave them to do.

Well, I don't think we know of the full work that God had intended for Balaam or Jonah.

I believe there is more to the story of Balaam:
Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to throw a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

so, using the test,
Moroni 7
"16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him."

so we see that in Balaam, things proceeded from him that were good and would then be from God,
and things that were evil, which would then be from the devil.

it seems that it would follow, then, that the same would apply to Joseph.

 

[He is the way]

Well, I don't think we know of the full work that God had intended for Balaam or Jonah.

I believe there is more to the story of Balaam:
Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to throw a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

so, using the test,
Moroni 7
"16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him."

so we see that in Balaam, things proceeded from him that were good and would then be from God,
and things that were evil, which would then be from the devil.

it seems that it would follow, then, that the same would apply to Joseph.

Many of the prophets faltered. Some did things that seemed to be against the word of God. Abraham was told to sacrifice his son. We know it was a test to see if he would do whatever the Lord commanded him to do. Even Jesus was tempted:

(New Testament | Matthew 4:1)

1 THEN was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Like Balaam, Joseph Smith also faced an angel with a sword:

"When God commands a difficult task, He sometimes sends additional messengers to encourage His people to obey. Consistent with this pattern, Joseph told associates that an angel appeared to him three times between 1834 and 1842 and commanded him to proceed with plural marriage when he hesitated to move forward. During the third and final appearance, the angel came with a drawn sword, threatening Joseph with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment fully.9"

From: Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo

 

[Leaf473]

Many of the prophets faltered. Some did things that seemed to be against the word of God. Abraham was told to sacrifice his son. We know it was a test to see if he would do whatever the Lord commanded him to do. Even Jesus was tempted:

(New Testament | Matthew 4:1)

1 THEN was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Like Balaam, Joseph Smith also faced an angel with a sword:

"When God commands a difficult task, He sometimes sends additional messengers to encourage His people to obey. Consistent with this pattern, Joseph told associates that an angel appeared to him three times between 1834 and 1842 and commanded him to proceed with plural marriage when he hesitated to move forward. During the third and final appearance, the angel came with a drawn sword, threatening Joseph with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment fully.9"

From: Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo

did Joseph falter?

did he make mistakes in his words or his actions?

 

[He is the way]

did Joseph falter?

did he make mistakes in his words or his actions?

Joseph Smith was not perfect and neither were the other prophets except for Jesus Christ. That being said, when Joseph Smith spoke in the name of God, it was scripture:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 68:4)

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

 

[Tra Phull]

Caint nobody EARN salvation or eternal life
C'mon, man!