Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Timtofly]

Only if you have erased the time of the judgment of the dead from Revelation 11:15-18, and Christ coming as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16...

These passages prove the book cannot be chronological.

I have no issues with how John wrote the book of Revelation. These passages can only prove that you think the book is not in chronological order. Your interpretation is your own opinion. If you think a thought, I cannot stop you from that thought. Do you ever question any of your thoughts? I am not being personal, and no, I am not going to erase any verses and change the order around. I understand what John is witnessing, and I would have written it the same way, because it all makes sense to me and it is all in chronological order. As pointed out, a lot happens in 8 days. If one is rooting for Satan, and all this one world stuff, 3.5 years are crammed into those 8 days.

 

[iamlamad]

And the verse below proves the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found in chapter 5.'
It proves the two chapters are connected.



1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

.....................................................................


The word "But" connects the two chapters.
.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(See Revelation 16:15-16)


.

OF COURSE they are connected: chapter 5 comes right after chapter 4. But what is Paul teaching us? That the rapture: HIS (Paul's) gathering will come just before wrath and as the trigger for wrath, and JOhn proves that wrath starts at the 6th seal in chapter 6, NOT IN CHAPTER 16.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, but that is only the rest of those who came to Armageddon, not the rest of all living.

1. It says no one is left to bury the dead - so the "feast of the birds" is seen in Rev 19.
2. "The rest" is after talking about wiping out all the armies. So it is the rest of mankind.
3. The feast of the birds is also predicted in the OT - where the corpses cover the entire earth and no one is there to bury them. Jer 25:33

==========================================
DESOLATE Earth during Millennium.. due to the Second Coming:

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
...21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.

20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

This will be rectified on the first day of the Millennium. The first (and only) resurrection of physically living humans.

The "first resurrection" according to Rev 20:5 is that of the saints and this is what starts the millennium. The above texts do not describe Christ coming and killing the saints.

Rather the saints are raised at the second coming. First the saints are "reaped" from the Earth and then the wicked are all reaped-slain... see Rev 14. There is no resurrection after that total wipe out of all humans on planet Earth at the 2nd coming - - "untll the thousand years are over"

 

[iamlamad]

I have no issues with how John wrote the book of Revelation. These passages can only prove that you think the book is not in chronological order. Your interpretation is your own opinion. If you think a thought, I cannot stop you from that thought. Do you ever question any of your thoughts? I am not being personal, and no, I am not going to erase any verses and change the order around. I understand what John is witnessing, and I would have written it the same way, because it all makes sense to me and it is all in chronological order. As pointed out, a lot happens in 8 days. If one is rooting for Satan, and all this one world stuff, 3.5 years are crammed into those 8 days.

And you say this after John told us 1260 days TWICE, and 42 months TWICE, and then time, times and half of time once? I don't know how you read, but I read this as five PROVES that the last half of the week will be 3 1/2 years, or 42 months or 1260 days.

 

[iamlamad]

1. It says no one is left to bury the dead - so the "feast of the birds" is seen in Rev 19.
2. "The rest" is after talking about wiping out all the armies. So it is the rest of mankind.
3. The feast of the birds is also predicted in the OT - where the corpses cover the entire earth and no one is there to bury them. Jer 25:33

==========================================
DESOLATE Earth during Millennium.. due to the Second Coming:

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
...21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.

20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.



The "first resurrection" according to Rev 20:5 is that of the saints and this is what starts the millennium. The above texts do not describe Christ coming and killing the saints.

Rather the saints are raised at the second coming. First the saints are "reaped" from the Earth and then the wicked are all reaped-slain... see Rev 14. There is no resurrection after that total wipe out of all humans on planet Earth at the 2nd coming - - "until the thousand years are over"

1. Quit making stuff up! It does not say there is no one alive to bury the dead. You assume that.

2. Don't make stuff up!

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. [Beast, kings, armies.]

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. [scratch 2 from this huge number of people now there are left the kings and their armies - probably millions of soldiers]

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
[So we are left with kings and their armies for "the remnant." So NOT all the people in the world, NOT all the people left in Israel, ONLY the kings and their armies]

3. How do you know Jer. 25:33 is talking about this event? Verse 30 says "against all the inhabitants of the earth." This immediately differentiates it from the Battle of Armageddon that will take place in ONE VALLEY in Israel.
Then in verse 31 it says, "A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh" Again this is not the Battle of Armageddon, which is fought ONLY in Israel.

Perhaps this is the parable of the tares. Perhaps it is a battle Revelation does not cover. God can certainly have more than one battle. There is also the Eze. 38 and 39 battle.

the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
He defines what he means by "all mean." His meaning is all levels of men: free and slave both; small and great both. Then he goes on for more definition: "I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army."

We MUST keep verses and phrases in their context. Anyone can make the bible say anything if they break this rule. One could make this argument:

Judas Iscariot went out and hung himself.
Go thou and do likewise.
Be of good cheer, for this is the will of the Father for you.

All these words come from scripture, but they are not meant to be put together.

 

[BobRyan]

==========================================
DESOLATE Earth during Millennium.. due to the Second Coming:

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
...21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.

20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

1. Quit making stuff up! It does not say there is no one alive to bury the dead. You assume that.

2. Don't make stuff up!

The mere quote of the texts - is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to them


Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

1. It says no one is left to bury the dead - so the "feast of the birds" is seen in Rev 19.
2. "The rest" is after talking about wiping out all the armies. So it is the rest of mankind.
3. The feast of the birds is also predicted in the OT - where the corpses cover the entire earth and no one is there to bury them. Jer 25:33

==========================================
DESOLATE Earth during Millennium.. due to the Second Coming:

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
...21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.

20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.



The "first resurrection" according to Rev 20:5 is that of the saints and this is what starts the millennium. The above texts do not describe Christ coming and killing the saints.

Rather the saints are raised at the second coming. First the saints are "reaped" from the Earth and then the wicked are all reaped-slain... see Rev 14. There is no resurrection after that total wipe out of all humans on planet Earth at the 2nd coming - - "untll the thousand years are over"

That is what I said. As long as your "saints" do not include the church. Then you have to prove where God kills all the souls from the OT until now, the second time. The church is not harvested (killed). It is raptured alive before all humanity is all killed. The Rapture does not happen on the first day of the Millennium. It happens in seal 6. Seal six is when the Lamb shows up to start the harvest during the trumpets and the thunders. The first 3.5 years cannot be the 8 day Second Coming. The Second Coming is the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Including the 6th seal as the second coming is not "in spirit" wrong. There literally has to be a harvest before victory can be declared. The Lamb as the Lord of the harvest and Lord of the earth is doing the harvest personally as Jesus Christ taught in the Gospels during the first coming. John declares the church leaves first, then those living of the house of Jacob, and then the wheat and tares of the remaining nations. Then the harvest "should" be complete. There is the little well known event allowed by God, for Satan. People want to insert this 3.5 years before the Second Coming or after the Second Coming. No, it interrupts the week of the Second Coming.

Yet it takes up the book from Revelation 10:5 to Revelation 20:3. The 5th verse is the declaration of the end of time and the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The Second Coming celebration starts when the 7th Trumpet starts to blow. When the 7th Trumpet stops, Satan is bound, one way or the other, no matter how the week goes.

Since this is the thread against: we are not subjected to be harvested. The point about escape is mute. No one escapes. This living body dies in the air and is changed. The church is done enduring death at that moment. Next the sheep and goats are literally slaughtered from this body of sin. Last the wheat is harvested and the tares are burned. Then the celebration starts. We can argue this point and never get any where. There is a problem with too many people left. If they had been raptured, they would not be left. Does it say they get raptured? NO!!! Satan gets his 3.5 years with them. Not because the church endured. It was because the apostate church condemned millions to live 3.5 years with Satan. Now it can be argued that Satan has to have 3.5 years. In fact that is what Reformed theology declares. At the end the elect will still be raptured. God knew it would happen and planned for it????

God’s plan was that the church would spread the Gospel. God declares the church will disobey and become apostate. No where does God say disobedience was God’s plan and will. That has been Satan's deception since Eve listened to him in the Garden. Why give the church the NT as a pattern to live by and a warning of things to come, if God just elected it all to happen a certain way? God declares He is longsuffering and patient and has waited for all this to come to pass. It has always been humans and their willingness to cooperate with God or not. God did plan the outline, but humanity filled in the majority of the details, just by living. Now we may just be over thinking it too much. We need to be prepared, and patient. We need to repent from apostasy, and turn from our wickedness. Trusting God and not leaning on our own understanding. Acknowledge God in everything. Stop doing that which we cannot see God blessing. Instead of trying to kill millions of lost souls, pray for them.

 

[Timtofly]

And you say this after John told us 1260 days TWICE, and 42 months TWICE, and then time, times and half of time once? I don't know how you read, but I read this as five PROVES that the last half of the week will be 3 1/2 years, or 42 months or 1260 days.

Do you want Satan to have control?

I am not saying it will not happen. I am saying shame on the church if it does. If it happens it is going to split the Second Coming week in half. It is an interruption, not a blessing.

 

[keras]

until you read 2 Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Jesus will not be revealed to all the world on His Day of fiery wrath. He is revealed to His own people; 2 Thess 1:10 Not the the world, as yet. Rev 1:7

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

The Hebrew word 'eratz', means 'land'. Only all the earth, if the context indicates that.
In the REB, CJB, and others say: Zephaniah 1:14-18, eratz is translated as; land, meaning just the holy Land.
That it is not and cannot be the whole earth, is proved by many scriptures showing people on earth after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath.

Only if you have erased the time of the judgment of the dead from Revelation 11:15-18, and Christ coming as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16...

These passages prove the book cannot be chronological.

But the general thread is a sequence of following events.
Revelation 20:11-15 tells us exactly when the raising of all the dead for Judgment will happen. Rev 11:15-6 has to be just a prophecy for that to happen AFTER the Millennium.

Jesus WILL come as a thief at Armageddon; for that huge army gathered there. But not for the Christians, who will know what is about to happen!
The Day that will come unexpectedly to everyone, is the Lords Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal; at least 10 years before Jesus Returns.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus will not be revealed to all the world on His Day of fiery wrath. He is revealed to His own people; 2 Thess 1:10

Not according to the text.

2 Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, (NOT the saints)

7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (Not the saints)


9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (NOT the saints)

 

[BobRyan]

That is what I said. As long as your "saints" do not include the church.

1. Why would saints not include the church?

Then you have to prove where God kills all the souls from the OT until now, the second time.

You mean - the "second death" Rev 20? At the end of the millennium?

Rev 20:6 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

[Timtofly]

1. Why would saints not include the church?

You mean - the "second death" Rev 20? At the end of the millennium?

Rev 20:6 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Because the church already resurrected with Christ on the cross. They are in the temple of God. They have glorified bodies. They cannot be resurrected with glorified bodies. Glorified bodies do not need resurrection.

 

[iamlamad]

==========================================
DESOLATE Earth during Millennium.. due to the Second Coming:

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
...21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.

20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.



The mere quote of the texts - is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to them


Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Zeph 1:18

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Quoting texts is fine; telling us what you think they say, when they really don't, is not fine.

 

[iamlamad]

Because the church already resurrected with Christ on the cross. They are in the temple of God. They have glorified bodies. They cannot be resurrected with glorified bodies. Glorified bodies do not need resurrection.

Brilliant! Truth! Glorified bodies are ALREADY resurrected or changed.

 

[iamlamad]

Not according to the text.

2 Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, (NOT the saints)

7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (Not the saints)


9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (NOT the saints)

2 Thess 1 (NOT the saints) WHO then if not the saints? It is WHO Paul is addressing so OF COURSE it is the saints. "YOU" in these verses are the saints.

 

[iamlamad]

Do you want Satan to have control?

I am not saying it will not happen. I am saying shame on the church if it does. If it happens it is going to split the Second Coming week in half. It is an interruption, not a blessing.

This is all mixed up. It is GOD who will give the Beast 42 months of control. Would you try and go against God's plans? Anyway, the church will NOT BE HERE during the time Satan through the Beast has control.

Hmm. Split in half? Jesus will come pretrib FOR His saints, then post posttrib WITH His saints.
FOR His saints will be his second coming (only to the air).
WITH His saints will be His 3rd coming. He touches down.

 

[BABerean2]

But the general thread is a sequence of following events.
Revelation 20:11-15 tells us exactly when the raising of all the dead for Judgment will happen. Rev 11:15-6 has to be just a prophecy for that to happen AFTER the Millennium.

You have got it backwards.

Paul said the fire comes at the return of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and the fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

Paul said Christ judges both the living, and the dead, at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1, and the judgment of the dead comes at the end of Revelation 20.

.

 

[BABerean2]

OF COURSE they are connected: chapter 5 comes right after chapter 4. But what is Paul teaching us? That the rapture: HIS (Paul's) gathering will come just before wrath and as the trigger for wrath, and JOhn proves that wrath starts at the 6th seal in chapter 6, NOT IN CHAPTER 16.

Because Christ comes as a thief in Revelation 16:15-16, we know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

.

 

[BABerean2]

I understand what John is witnessing, and I would have written it the same way, because it all makes sense to me and it is all in chronological order.

Recapitulation in the Book of Revelation:

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[BobRyan]

Jesus will not be revealed to all the world on His Day of fiery wrath. He is revealed to His own people; 2 Thess 1:10

Not according to the text.

2 Thess 1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, (NOT the saints)

7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (Not the saints)


9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (NOT the saints)

2 Thess 1 (NOT the saints) WHO then if not the saints?

vs 6 "Those who afflict you" -- are NOT the saints and it is THEY who are meeting that payback at the second coming

vs 7 "dealing out retribution to those who do not know God " -- are most certainly NOT saints
yet it is they that will see Him dealing out retribution to THEM at the 2nd coming

retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction

All of that refers to "not the saints". which I think we all would agree is an obvious detail so far.

So not only are the saints being rewarded at the 2nd coming - but so also do the living wicked get their just reward - the reward of punishment.

Paul is telling the saints in 2Thess 1 - what will happen at the 2nd coming... as we all can see.