Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Guojing]

In the Parable of the Weeds, the Lord said:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up the weeds first and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

The Rapture takes place after the Resurrection:

1Th 4:15-16 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

This sounds so clear and straightforward.

Most of us generally use the Bible to confirm what we already hold to be true. You can easily find Scripture to support many different doctrines.

 

[keras]

Most of us generally use the Bible to confirm what we already hold to be true. You can easily find Scripture to support many different doctrines.

But with the question of what will happen first, Andrewn is correct. Many prophesies confirm that the Lord will destroy His enemies before He Returns to reign.

In three stages: The enemies who conspire to attack the Israel there now. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12; the Sixth Seal event.
Next will be the Gog/Magog attack onto the new nation in all of holy Land. Ezekiel 38 to 30, Joel 2:20
Then; at His Return, Armageddon and Satan is chained up.

Finally; the attack from all the nations, Satans last gasp.
Then Jesus will hand the Kingdom back to the Father, after having disposed of all who oppose Him. 1 Corinthians 15:24

 

[Timtofly]

But with the question of what will happen first, Andrewn is correct. Many prophesies confirm that the Lord will destroy His enemies before He Returns to reign.

In three stages: The enemies who conspire to attack the Israel there now. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12; the Sixth Seal event.
Next will be the Gog/Magog attack onto the new nation in all of holy Land. Ezekiel 38 to 30, Joel 2:20
Then; at His Return, Armageddon and Satan is chained up.

Finally; the attack from all the nations, Satans last gasp.
Then Jesus will hand the Kingdom back to the Father, after having disposed of all who oppose Him. 1 Corinthians 15:24

Revelation 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

How do you get two Gog and Magog events?

 

[Blade]

You quote Mat 13:30 then say "The Rapture takes place after the Resurrection:"

Then you post 1Th 4:15-16.. thats it? This is and please no offense the classic "what that verse really means/ what Jesus was really saying". Thats taking Gods word out of context.

Strange.. not the right word but..well that this verse was used. A few nights ago I had a dream. All I saw was this plant and a weed growing with it. And He said "you have to let them grow up together". You know about what that plant is and what the weed is right? Yet you took that out of context and applied it caught up.

The simple fact Christ was not talking to any Christians or Church. Caught up before the great tribulation was talked about preached about 100-400Ad. And then after blah blah blah. Does not in any way prove pre trib but.... it seems to oddly never get talked about. Any one can read the scrolls.

Jesus went to make us a home. And He said.....not me.. He will come back and get us so where He is we will be. I know where He is.. He is coming and will take those that are watching ready to where He is. So no one was promised tomorrow.. why not be thinking about Him.. always watching what your doing, living always ready now.

The sad truth is.. if you/we can't live for Jesus now...you never will during a time unlike any other in history. I think some Christians think its going to be as it is now. A nope. The AntiChrist will be out in the open.. doing wonders.. lying wonders that no one alive has ever seen. Just be ready now. Don't follow some man when it comes to this. No one knows. You were given this moment right now.. so live it for HIM! Always thinking about Him.. always pleasing Him by FAITH! In this moment. Doubt will never get you anywhere ever with God.

 

[keras]

Revelation 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

How do you get two Gog and Magog events?

You quote the answer yourself; the armies in Rev 20:8 come from everywhere on earth.
The armies of Ezekiel 38 to 39, come from the far reaches of the North.

 

[Timtofly]

You quote the answer yourself; the armies in Rev 20:8 come from everywhere on earth.
The armies of Ezekiel 38 to 39, come from the far reaches of the North.

At the end of 1000 years, yes. Not immediately after the 6th seal. That is why I asked are there 2 battles with the same name?

 

[keras]

At the end of 1000 years, yes. Not immediately after the 6th seal. That is why I asked are there 2 battles with the same name?

The attack that will happen at the end of the Millennium, uses 'Gog and Magog', as an adjective; to describe a similar uncountable multitude of soldiers, as in the attack prophesied in Ezekiel 38-39.

The attack that Ezekiel prophesies, will happen just a few years after the Sixth Seal.
Proved by how the inhabitants of the holy Land at that time, are not the people who are there now. Ezekiel 38:11

 

[iamlamad]

Most of us generally use the Bible to confirm what we already hold to be true. You can easily find Scripture to support many different doctrines.

This is of course done by pulling verses out of their context, or simply not understanding them, and imaging they say what they really don't say. A good example is the different way people read and understand the 2 Thes. 2 passage.

 

[iamlamad]

In the Parable of the Weeds, the Lord said:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up the weeds first and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

The Rapture takes place after the Resurrection:

1Th 4:15-16 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

This sounds so clear and straightforward.

The Rapture takes place after the Resurrection: WHICH resurrection?
1. Jesus' resurrection long ago
2. The resurrection of the dead in Christ: soon to come
3. The resurrection of the Old Covenant saints plus the two witnesses plus those beheaded.
3. The resurrection of the damned.

(all these will happen at a different time.)

 

[Guojing]

This is of course done by pulling verses out of their context, or simply not understanding them, and imaging they say what they really don't say. A good example is the different way people read and understand the 2 Thes. 2 passage.

True, but since each of us live in our own movie, we are always the protagonist, while the other the antagonist.

 

[iamlamad]

True, but since each of us live in our own movie, we are always the protagonist, while the other the antagonist.

Thanks: I learned a new word.

 

[Timtofly]

The Rapture takes place after the Resurrection: WHICH resurrection?
1. Jesus' resurrection long ago
2. The resurrection of the dead in Christ: soon to come
3. The resurrection of the Old Covenant saints plus the two witnesses plus those beheaded.
3. The resurrection of the damned.

(all these will happen at a different time.)

Why is the flesh and blood resurrected of those in Christ? Dust is not changed. The soul has already been changed. The Atonement on the Cross changed the church from death to life. No one in Christ has a dead soul, it has been quickened to life. The whole church is waiting to receive their spirit, the robe of white, a glorified body. The glorified body does not happen until all the church is complete and placed in the temple of God. Paul was not wrong, but very few people had died in Christ. Paul was present at the time Stephen died and claimed to go immediately to heaven. The Holy Spirit confirmed such an event in Paul's writings. But we know that dust is not resurrected. We also know that the soul is already in Paradise with Christ. Paradise is the temple of God. The view that John had was written for those 1st century Christians who would die in Christ as being under the alter. That is the only mention of the church in the 5th seal of Revelation 6. They have been under the alter for 1990 years. This group also includes all OT saints who died for their testimony of the coming Messiah.

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming.

yes it is.

"I will come again" - John 14:1-3 and in Rev 19 Jesus is seen coming again to Earth, with the armies of heaven and all the wicked on Earth are slain.

. All living will die, and there is no burials.

True that is what happens at the 2nd coming after the dead in Christ rise first and they along with the living saints are taken to heaven. Then as the saints are all removed - Christ and His army wipe out all the living on Earth .. no one to bury the dead as Rev 19 points out. This is the point in time of the "first resurrection". As Rev 20:5 clearly states... the time when the "Dead in Christ rise first".

 

[iamlamad]

Why is the flesh and blood resurrected of those in Christ? Dust is not changed. The soul has already been changed. The Atonement on the Cross changed the church from death to life. No one in Christ has a dead soul, it has been quickened to life. The whole church is waiting to receive their spirit, the robe of white, a glorified body. The glorified body does not happen until all the church is complete and placed in the temple of God. Paul was not wrong, but very few people had died in Christ. Paul was present at the time Stephen died and claimed to go immediately to heaven. The Holy Spirit confirmed such an event in Paul's writings. But we know that dust is not resurrected. We also know that the soul is already in Paradise with Christ. Paradise is the temple of God. The view that John had was written for those 1st century Christians who would die in Christ as being under the alter. That is the only mention of the church in the 5th seal of Revelation 6. They have been under the alter for 1990 years. This group also includes all OT saints who died for their testimony of the coming Messiah.

Dust is not changed.
You really need to grab your dictionary and look up "resurrection."
Question: did Jesus body turn to dust - or was it resurrected? You KNOW His body was resurrected: He had the nail holes in His hands and feet. And Jesus, as the "firstfruits" was the prototype: all the rest would follow Him.

Resurrection: "(in Christian belief) the rising of the dead at the Last Judgment."
": to bring (a dead person) back to life. : to cause (something that had ended or been forgotten or lost) to exist again, to be used again, etc."
"Resurrection or anastasis is the concept of coming back to life after death."

The spirit and soul (mind, will, emotions) of a human never die, so never need to be resurrected. It is the body that dies.

What am I saying" The "DUST" will indeed rise again! Read in Matthew 27:

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

What part of them? Their BODIES.

No one in Christ has a dead soul, it has been quickened to life. Sorry, even this is wrong. It is our human spirit that is quickened. Our soul, that is our mind, our will, our emotions, memories, affections do not get born again. That is why a war starts inside every human that gets born again.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.


2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Ephesians 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2 Timothy 4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.

Philemon 1:25 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

As you can read, it is our human spirit that is born again - our "inward man."

receive their spirit, the robe of white, a glorified body. Wrong and right. It is the spirit and soul of a believer that goes to heaven upon death. Jesus will bring them back with Him to the air, call up their bodies, and they will once again JOIN with their bodies and be whole (spirit, soul and body) once again.

But we know that dust is not resurrected. Why do you keep writing ERROR? OF COURSE it is the body turned to dust that gets resurrected. That is why the "graves" must be "opened." This just shows again how powerful our God is: He can turn dust into a human body again. I suspect it is on the quark level - or even smaller particles.

We also know that the soul is already in Paradise It is the SPIRIT of man with his her her soul. The spirit of a man is the real man, but it is the soul that makes every spirit different.

That is the only mention of the church in the 5th seal And that is a very small subset of the church: only those who were murdered or martyred. Not to worry: John saw the raptured church in chapter 7.

 

[iamlamad]

Paul declares a pre-trib rapture because the church has already been judged on the cross. Calling a pre-trib rapture a heresy is calling Paul a heretical teacher. The tribulation is the harvest of the sheep and goats, and the wheat and tares. This is the time of harvest Jesus taught in the Gospels. The church is not on earth when the Lamb is on the earth. Yes, 11 disciples remained to start the NT church. In the tribulation after the church leaves, only the sealed 144K Jewish male virgins are the Lamb's disciples on earth during the harvest of those alive on the earth. That is evident in Revelation 7 and Revelation 14. To deny that the Lamb is present, is to deny all of Jesus' teachings in the Gospels. This time of tribulation is the harvest at the end, after the gathering of the church. It happens now. The only events at the other end of the last 1000 years is the battle of Gog and Megog and the GWT. The false teaching is that the earth will end soon. What verse says the earth is going to end soon?

Time to fly: let me see if I am understanding you: we have ahead of us (not really "us" but the world - the 70th week of Daniel: a period of 7 years or a WEEK of years.

Are you dividing that week up into "Sunday" as the first year, "Monday" as the second year, etc?
If so, the midpoint would be on a "wednesday." If so, Jesus does not return on the Saturday that ends the week. Many think so, but it is not truth. The events of chapters 17 and 18 and the marriage come between the end of the week and His coming.

By the way, please tell us your thinking about His Rev. 19 coming NOT being His "second" coming.

 

[BobRyan]

Time to fly: let me see if I am understanding you: we have ahead of us (not really "us" but the world - the 70th week of Daniel: a period of 7 years or a WEEK of years.

Are you dividing that week up into "Sunday" as the first year, "Monday" as the second year, etc?
If so, the midpoint would be on a "wednesday." If so, Jesus does not return on the Saturday that ends the week. Many think so, but it is not truth. The events of chapters 17 and 18 and the marriage come between the end of the week and His coming.

By the way, please tell us your thinking about His Rev. 19 coming NOT being His "second" coming.

I think you have that right as far as what he is saying in his post... but of course as we all know - all prophetic timelines in the Bible are contiguous .. that means all 70 years of Jeremiah's 70 years mentioned in Dan 9:1-3 are contiguous.

And it means that all 490 years of that 70 weeks timeline in Dan 9... are also contiguous and they point to Christ's first coming.

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

How do you get two Gog and Magog events?

resurrection of the dead at the end of the 1000 years. And the fact that Rev 20 starts off with a short summary after vs 5.

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. It is the last Sunday of the Second Coming week. Jesus returns after the 3.5 year interruption of Satan.

all prophetic timelines in the Bible are contiguous .. that means all 70 years of Jeremiah's 70 years mentioned in Dan 9:1-3 are contiguous.

And it means that all 490 years of that 70 weeks timeline also in Dan 9... are also contiguous and they point to Christ's first coming.

 

[JulieB67]

Therefore they have to be taken first. This is the mystery Paul talked about in 1 Cor. 15:51 'Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed'

Paul very clearly states the mystery. He says at the last trump, all will be changed. He didn't say a select few will be removed from the earth at that time.

And you have misunderstood the word "taken" as utilized in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

The word taken in this verse is Greek word 522 paralambano - to receive near, associate oneself with (as in a familair or intimate act or relation) -to learn -receive, take.

Common sense alone tells us these are the ones that receive and take the mark of the beast. That's the very definition of the word "taken" in this verse.

Here's another verse with the word "taken" in it.

Matthew 9:15 "And Jesus said unto them, "Can the children of the bride chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

The word "taken" in this verse is 522 apairo - to lift off, i.e. remove, -take (away)

If Matthew 24:40 were to mean some were actually physically taken from the earth as in the Bridegroom in Matthew 9:15, apairo would have been used, not paralambano.

The judgement of this world will start with the judgement of Christians. Who will be taken and who will be left behind.

This isn't what Christ or Paul taught. Christ says he comes immediately "after" the tribulation. And Paul is a second witness to his teachings. After 1st Thessalonians 4:17, if we read further into chapter 5 (the subject hasn't changed) he calls this event, "the day of the Lord" and wrote a 2nd letter to the Thessalonians because they had been confused about the timing and thought the day of Christ was at hand. He told them not to be confused or shaken in mind (even by their letter) that that day "shall not happen until a falling away and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. Christ and Paul say beware so that we are not deceived on this subject.

People will receive the mark of the beast

Again, the word "taken" in Matthew 24: 40 means exactly that, not the other way around. Remember it was the flood that "took" the wicked away. And Satan will bring on another type of flood, hoping to carry people away.

God knows how to protect his own in perilous times. That's what the ark is all about. The tribulation is shortened for the elect's sake and Christ says those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. We are to wait on the true Christ and not fall away to the fake one coming first. Anti in the Greek means "instead" of. He will be here instead of Christ. Christ says he comes at an hour many are not watching because many will believe he is already here. That's why Paul warns us about Satan being disguised as an angel of light.

We really need cling to Christ and Paul's warnings on this subject. And Christ says that with patience we are to possess our souls, it's very important.

 

[iamlamad]

I think you have that right as far as what he is saying in his post... but of course as we all know - all prophetic timelines in the Bible are contiguous .. that means all 70 years of Jeremiah's 70 years mentioned in Dan 9:1-3 are contiguous.

And it means that all 490 years of that 70 weeks timeline in Dan 9... are also contiguous and they point to Christ's first coming.

Bob, this is just one more opinion that I don't buy into. I know Daniel not only wrote in a gap, but gave us some events that happened in the gap.
Therefore, we DON'T "all know!" ;-) There are millions of believers that "don't know" "all prophetic timelines are contiguous."