Convince me of Continuationism.

[swordsman1]

Let's set aside Eph 2:20 for just one milisecond. What about cessationism on the whole? What are scholars saying about it today? Most biblical scholars of today, according to this pastor (who holds a Doctorate of Ministry from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary), stand opposed to cessationism - this appears to be a recent shift in opinion:

A quote from Gordon Fee, a Pentecostal theologian! Would you expect anything less from him. Give me a break. Of course with the explosion in the Pentecostal and charismatic movement in the last 100 years there are more people advocating continuationism. That doesn't make their theology correct. There are even more Muslims in the world - does that make them correct?

 

[JAL]

A quote from Gordon Fee, a Pentecostal theologian! Would you expect anything less from him. Give me a break. Of course with the explosion in the Pentecostal and charismatic movement in the last 100 years there are more people advocating continuationism. That doesn't make their theology correct. There are even more Muslims in the world - does that make them correct?

That's a laugh. A while back you claimed that if scholars do not function with scholarly integrity, they'd lose their jobs. Isn't it ironic how quickly you change the narrative? First of all, Gordon Fee wasn't commenting on a passage - he wasn't expressing his opinion on the doctrine of cessationism in that quote. He was telling us the STATUS of other scholars. Is he qualified to do this? Look at the Wikipedia article. He is one of the most esteemed theologians of the past century. Here's ONE example of his credentials:

In the 1990s, he succeeded F.F. Bruce to become the editor of the notable evangelical commentary series, the New International Commentary on the New Testament of which his commentaries on 1 Corinthians and Philippians are a part.

That's not a "Pentecostal" commentary. That's a mainstream evangelical commentary.

Nice try though.

 

[JAL]

You never made that clear in your original statement to which I responded, which was....

"The prophets tended to be the most mature - and therefore the most likely to exhibit miracles. God is too wise to put that kind of power in the hands of the spiritually immature. "​

And I proved it wrong. God gave prophecy in abundance to a spiritually immature church.

Now you're backpedalling and moving the goalposts after the goal was scored.

Yet more blatant dishonesty.

Stop telling lies. Your fundamental assertion here has been a point of dissent for me for over 15 years! How is it backpedaling for me to stay consistent for 15 years? Here's your assertion:

" God gave prophecy in abundance to a spiritually immature church."

I've denied that all along. My whole six-part series (which you refused to read) was a systematic refutation of that assumption. How is total ongoing consistency backpedaling? For at least 15 years, I have held, and demonstrated that God did NOT give the Corinthians superlative gifting due to their immaturity. What I have ALWAYS conceded - and I did so on this thread - is that the apostolic churches typically had the gifts in full DIVERSITY.

 

[Guojing]

A quote from Gordon Fee, a Pentecostal theologian! Would you expect anything less from him. Give me a break. Of course with the explosion in the Pentecostal and charismatic movement in the last 100 years there are more people advocating continuationism. That doesn't make their theology correct. There are even more Muslims in the world - does that make them correct?

Gordon Fee is well known for his doctrine that the Gospel of the Kingdom is still relevant today, and is meant for the Body of Christ to preach.

Those who hold on to that gospel, will naturally follow Continuationism.. Signs and wonders are an essential feature of that gospel.

 

[JAL]

@swordsman1

Again, Corinth had a full DIVERSITY of gifts. That's the kind of foundation that the apostles and prophets laid down, typically by the laying on of hands. They had NOT attained to the desired superabundance of giftings.

 

[JAL]

I've already refuted your bizarre interpretation of 1 Cor 13:8-13 back in this thread.

Link? Any specific post of yours on that thread?

On this thread you've been condoning the cessationist scholar Robert Thomas. Shall we do a quick side-by-side? Let's do so.
(1) My claim. Paul gauged spiritual maturity by charismatic abundance. For example in 1Cor 13, the gauge was prophecy, knowledge, and tongues.
(2) Now a quote from Robert Thomas:

“By what criteria may maturity in the body of Christ be gauged?…The criterion before Paul in 1Corinthians 13, however, centers in knowledge, tongues, and prophecy...for special revelation and [miraculous] signs for verification of this revelation (cf. Heb 2:3-4).” (Robert L. Thomas, "Tongues…Will Cease", Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, Vol 17:2 (1974), p 88).

In part six of my series I cited other cessationist scholars who reached the same conclusion. THEY are the ones who were then forced to backpedal, not I, sir.

 

[JAL]

You're lying again. You plainly said....

Um...And I stand by those words. Do you NOT understand that the cornerstone is PART of the larger foundation?

Anyone monitoring this thread - can you please find a way to explain to this to him? He's not getting it.

 

[JAL]

@swordsman1;

I find it laughable how you've utterly failed to muster a point-by-point rebuttal of my analysis of 1Cor 13:8-12. You may have fooled some spectators on this thread for a while, but I don't think you're fooling them anymore. You don't have any claims or rebuttals of substance in this debate. Cessationism boils down to ONE argument (and no Scripture), "I don't see any prophets or miracle-workers in my vicinity today. Must not be biblical anymore." That's the "argument". It's wholly empirical.

 

[Radagast]

Can you also make a good case for Continuationism?

After 28 pages of more heat than light, the answer is a very clear no.

 

[JAL]

So you're sitting on the fence again. Last time you did that and I refuted your argument you shifted the goalposts (after the goal was scored ) by saying oh that was only "one facet" of your thinking and instead had the gall to accuse me of misrepresenting you! That was when I left the thread in disgust at your blatant dishonesty.

Let me know when you've stopped moving the target and made up your mind on your interpretation of Eph 2:20. Then we can continue discussing it. Otherwise you're wasting my time.

Stop telling lies. My understanding of Eph 2:20 hasn't changed. I'll admit that I adduced ADDITIONAL SUPPORT for my reading of it when I realized that TWO modes of the Greek genitive noun (not just one) were harmonious with my view. Two out of three ain't bad. It's a majority position. Shame on me for corroborating my own position.

Is everyone seeing how much empty rhetoric is being sprayed around here? No real rebuttals?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

After 28 pages of more heat than light, the answer is a very clear no.

I am inclined to agree (although I still label it as a mystery so as not to condemn myself). The safer play in my book is to not get mixed up in the Continuationist movement. Sure, I don't mind having a Continuationist friend or brother, but if comes to accepting practices of Continuationism, I will have to refrain.

If I focus on loving God and loving others, spreading the gospel, helping the poor, loving the brethren, and preaching the Word, my mission in life is complete. What can the sign gifts offer me? Granted, I know that they did serve a purpose for the early church, and if I lived during that time, I would be seeking them earnestly because I would have seen things like Pentecost, etc.; I would have desired to want the Jews to be able to see at that time the upcoming destruction of their temple (So that they could believe in Jesus Christ).

Also, the Scriptures always seem to keep swinging back towards Cessationism, as well; Things that are hard to deny. For me, Sola Scriptura or having a complete Bible along with Revelation 22:18 is one of the biggest proofs for Cessationism. If new prophecy is still happening, then we should be adding these prophecies in an official written form to the back of our Bibles. But not even many Continuationists would not dare do something like that. Yet, they are still saying their prophecy is from God. This to me sounds contradictory. If the prophecy is from God, then it should be added to the Bible.

 

[Albion]

I am inclined to agree (although I still label it as a mystery so as not to condemn myself). The safer play in my book is to not get mixed up in the Continuationist movement.

It's your decision, of course. But what you say seems wise.

After all, even if the Continuationists were correct, the gifts may be given to anyone of the Holy Spirit's choosing. It's not as though only members in good standing of one of the avowedly Pentecostal denominations are eligible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It's your decision, of course. But what you say seems wise.

After all, even if the Continuationists were correct, the gifts may be given to anyone of the Holy Spirit's choosing. It's not as though only members in good standing of one of the avowedly Pentecostal denominations are eligible.

Thank you for the kind words. Yes, I have two Continuationist friends or brothers. But I simply do not agree that it is safe spiritually to practice Continuationism (Just in case they are wrong). But as I said, I label it as a mystery and leave a very small percentage (like 1-5%) that I could be wrong so as not to condemn myself, either.

If I were to go by looking at Scripture and what we see in the real world today, Cessationism is the position that makes the most sense to me.

 

[Radagast]

If new prophecy is still happening, then we should be adding these prophecies in an official written form to the back of our Bibles. But not even many Continuationists would not dare do something like that. Yet, they are still saying their prophecy is from God. This to me sounds contradictory. If the prophecy is from God, then it should be added to the Bible.

Well, if it's infallible prophecy, then that applies.

Most Continuationists claim instead to have fallible prophecy from God. To me, that has a different problem: it makes no sense.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

On this issue: I am reminded of the story in 1 Kings 13. The man of God was killed for not listening to the Word of the Lord. He instead listened to a false prophet and chose to disobey God (Which led to his own death).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, if it's infallible prophecy, then that applies.

Most Continuationists claim instead to have fallible prophecy from God. To me, that has a different problem: it makes no sense.

Right, the Bible does not teach fallible prophecy. If men did not get a prophecy correct in the OT, they would be killed. If a Continuationist teaches fallible prophecy, then they would be instantly disqualified in my view as being a genuine Continuationist.

 

[Radagast]

But I simply do not agree that it is safe spiritually to practice Continuationism (Just in case they are wrong).

I'm not quite sure what you mean. If God genuinely grants you one of the "sign gifts," then (a) Continuationism is probably true, and (b) you should exercise your gift.

What you should actively resist is anybody who instructs you on how to "fake" a sign gift.

At best, such fakery would be a form of lie; at worst it would be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Edit: inserted "probably" after feedback from other members.

 

[Hawkins]

I am on the fence between Cessationism and Continuationism.

It is almost a wrong premise. It's not about whether they continue. It's more about which ground humans can stand on nowadays as a measurement of how close they can be to God.

In 30s last century, how much nudity humans can get in touch through the media? 99.99% humans (including Christians) don't stand a chance to touch any nudity. Take a look at today's world, 99.99% humans in a modern society are inevitably in touch with inappropriate contentography. That reflects how fast this world goes corrupt, mostly in a gentile world. God's great effort was once on the Jews. In a nutshell, Jesus is in on time before the whole world went corrupt.

When Jesus said to the Jews,
Matthew 17:20-21 (NIV2011)
He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

When the Jews (they don't have Internet back then, I must say) having faith as a mustard seed, then how about gentiles in today's world?! We need a mirror much more than a miracle or healing or tongue.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. If God genuinely grants you one of the "sign gifts," then (a) Continuationism is true, and (b) you should exercise your gift.

What you should actively resist is anybody who instructs you on how to "fake" a sign gift.

At best, such fakery would be a form of lie; at worst it would be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

But see, there's the rub. How do I know the sign gifts have truly continued? I don't. Scripture appears to lean heavily in favor towards Cessationism, but it is not exactly 100% clear on the matter, either. There is no clear words in Scripture saying something like.... “and then the sign gifts had ended by all believers that day, and God's purpose was fulfilled for them.” Yet, there are many other verses that do seem to imply Cessationism. If these verses on Cessationism are true, then there would be no sign gifts in this period or era to receive. For God cannot contradict His Word.

 

[Radagast]

Right, the Bible does not teach fallible prophecy. If men did not get a prophecy correct in the OT, they would be killed.

If Pentecostal churches did that (or even something milder, like excommunication), there would be a lot fewer "prophets."

If a Continuationist teaches fallible prophecy, then they would be instantly disqualified in my view as being a genuine Continuationist.

To the best of my knowledge, all Continuationists teach fallible prophecy. That's how they justify the fact that "prophecies" are so often wrong. One of my dashed hopes for this thread was clarity on whether it was really all Continuationists.

But see, there's the rub. How do I know the sign gifts have truly continued? I don't.

But I think that if you personally had been given a genuine sign gift, you would know.