Deathbed Confessions

[Mountainmanbob]

I don't know what you mean by cheesy. The lie would likely cause the mother to feel great peace and satisfaction as she dies. That may be noble, as her son sets aside his need to feel understood and respected for his beliefs.

Think the Bible God's Word teaches against lieing.
M

 

[Tinker Grey]

Think the Bible God's Word teaches against lieing.
M

So turn Anne Frank over to the Nazis. Got it.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

So turn Anne Frank over to the Nazis. Got it.

Different circumstances

 

[durangodawood]

Different circumstances

Gods word changes for Anne Frank?
.

 

[durangodawood]

...it's not permissible to lie to get what you want...

Is this an absolute that you must adhere to in every circumstance?

Or is it a strong moral rule that can be broken when it conflicts with a stronger one?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Usually we hear about a person confessing belief on their deathbed. But, imagine a non-believer at the bed of their mother who is a believer. She emotionally suffers because her son is not saved. He could make a false confession of faith before she dies and limit her emotional suffering by thinking he is now saved.

Is it moral or immoral for him to lie to her about his confession of faith in order to give her comfort before she dies?

It’s moral if your moral system allows for it.

In your scenario, is this a private conversation between mother and child, or are others present?

 

[Caliban]

It’s moral if your moral system allows for it.

In your scenario, is this a private conversation between mother and child, or are others present?

I suppose a mother and child--good question.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I suppose a mother and child--good question.

Then according to my moral system, it’s moral. For me, it would be necessary. And that’s taking into consideration the possible chance that Christianity is true.

 

[Caliban]

Then according to my moral system, it’s moral. For me, it would be necessary. And that’s taking into consideration the possible chance that Christianity is true.

It's interesting you said it would be necessary--why? You are the first person to say this.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

It's interesting you said it would be necessary--why? You are the first person to say this.

It would decrease her sadness at my atheism without any consequences. No one but me would know that it occurred.

 

[Caliban]

It would decrease her sadness at my atheism without any consequences. No one but me would know that it occurred.

I agree with you, but I'm not sure if I'd feel morally compelled to do it.

 

[com7fy8]

For the sake of this thread, our hypothetical nonbeliever is quite happy with his non belief and he feels pity for his confused mother.

Biblical believing brings clarity. So, if we are talking about a Biblical believer who is about to die and be with Jesus, and knows this, the believer can not be confused. It is written >

"For God is not the author of confusion but of peace," in 1 Corinthians 14:33.

Also, our Apostle Paul has prayed for us who are believers >

"And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment." (Philippians 1:9)

So, in God's love we become more and more clear in how we see. So, if you are talking about a true believer, she can not be confused.

So, may be he sees his mother, a true believer, as being confused. This would be fooling himself, which would not be moral; he would be the confused one; and Jesus has compassion for him . . . pit for him; and this is part of why Jesus came to this earth and so suffered and died for us . . . because of His compassion for us.

Among other things, mr. hypothetical is fooling himself, if not knowingly, and this might not be deliberate deception, but it still is wrong - - for him, to fool himself.

Also it can be wrong for others > in case he is going around showing off, even, that he is doing great and is happy, this is helping others to suppose they too don't need Jesus, and so they miss out on how they could have peace with God . . . because of him. And so they will suffer in this life and later, unless they get wise to him being so wrong.

He could be showing off a very inferior way of being happy, when anyone may trust in Christ and be the way God's way of loving makes us actually better than how selfish and self-dependent ones are capable of making themselves happy. So, he would be a bad example, immoral, by being happy in a way so inferior.

And you seem to say you object to people suffering torment in hell. So, if there is hell and he is helping people to suppose they don't need Jesus, that is very immoral because of how he is making it look as though people don't need Jesus who has so suffered and died so we do not go to hell.

So, yes it would be very immoral . . . even if he is in denial so he does not know this.

So, in case he is happy with this, yes this is a major problem, plus extremely conceited if he actually feels he is too good for Jesus who is God's own Son. But Jesus is so superior to and better than us, and yet Jesus left Heaven and came here in the flesh in order to reach us and share His own good with us, and even suffer and die for us, on the cross, so we would not suffer torment after we die. So, Jesus is not at all conceited . . . like humans who can pick and choose who is good enough for us to love.

And if he is happy while being a bad example in other ways . . . this is not helping children and older people to find out how to love.

For just one example > there are people who smoke, and act like they are doing great and they are cool people. But their example could help children to become smokers so later they could suffer and die from cancer, plus go through the financial and emotional havoc of that with those who care about them.

So, if someone is happy with that, and yet claims to object to people suffering torment . . . that person's bad example of smoking could be helping people to suffer. Meanwhile . . . on the other hand - - - if the mother has been a believer and a good example, she has not helped people to go to hell; so she would not have a moral reason to keep suffering in Heaven.

And there are people who directly disobey and dishonor how God's word says for us to relate in His love. For one example, God's word says >

"Do all things without complaining and disputing," (Philippians 2:14)

So . . . I see from this > arguing and complaining are anti-love. And so, if parents disobey God's love rule not to complain or argue, and if they do not find out how to love, their bad example can help to keep their children from knowing how to love in a close relationship. And the Bible has various scriptures which can help us how to find out how to relate intimately with another person > for examples > Ephesians 4:31-32, Ephesians 5:21, 1 Peter 5:3; plus any scripture can be used to help us become more real in how God has us love.

In the United States where I am, there is something like a little more than a fifty-percent divorce rate for marriages. And there can be a household culture of independence so spouses and the children spend much time and commitment energy on each one's own interests, instead of doing more sharing and learning how to relate, with one another. And this can feed into how ministers later do their ministering and neglect their own families and time to enjoy God and to refresh with Him > so selfish independence, which can start in the home, is effecting even how relating is in church ministry.

So, such parents into such stuff are a bad example helping kids to not know how to love. So, if your hypothetical believer grew up to become a confused person, possibly she was a product of American independence which isolates spouses from one another and isolates Bible claiming people from God so they are tormented by stress and burnout in their self-dependent pursuits.

In case this is why she is confused, his lying to her will not help her, I would say. If he truly cares about himself and what she feels, the time of her deathbed is too late . . . especially, if all he has to give her at her deathbed is a lie!!

If he loves her, genuinely, he needs to start before then, so he can help her become a clear person of God's love, so she is not confused at the end of her life.

 

[Caliban]

Biblical believing brings clarity

This statement is confusing because people on this forum do not share clarity about what the Bible seems to say. There is even more confusion in the broader culture of believers. I don't see how that leads to moral consistency or truth. Isn't everyone just engaging their own understanding of morality and employing Post Hoc biblical rationalizations?

 

[com7fy8]

Isn't everyone just engaging their own understanding of morality and employing Post Hoc biblical rationalizations?

Yes, any of us can adjust the Bible to fit with what we want and therefore what we may dictate is true.

But, about how to relate in a close relationship . . . God's word has put me through major correction, along with how my mother confronted how I related. And still plenty of people confront me . . . though they do not use the Bible to back themselves up. But there are plenty of times when I get confronted, but then Bible things come to mind to back those people up.

And it is not what I started out thinking and wanting. The correction of the Bible has been grievous, for me, but afterward I have been very glad and I enjoy loving the way the Bible says to relate: it has helped me to get my lady friend who does not only confront me but is an example for me. Sharing with her and evaluating how I relate, by the Bible, has helped me go into relating in ways I never thought of, beforehand.

Just for one practical example > I would try to help her with some practical thing, and she would say no and I would get bent out of shape that I was being there for her and she was refusing me. But I would see how I was getting into bitterness, and God's word says >

"Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them." (Colossians 3:19)

So, I knew that right away I first needed to fight that bitterness and get into loving her gently and humbly, before I went any further with her. And do not try to control her, because it also is written >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

And I could see yes I was trying to lord myself over her, to change how she did things practically. Then, when I had prayed and got cleared of the negative and nasty stuff, it came to me, once, "Ask her why she does that." And her reason was very thoughtful for someone else, not only practical. She had compassion in her reasoning!!!

But I can be so practical but ready to judge and criticize; so her answer helped me to see how I need to function more first with compassion and patience and staying kind no matter how others react to me.

And this was not how I used to be. I still can get into only using people and criticizing people, first. So, in my case, the Bible has not catered to how I wanted to see myself and tended to relate with people.

 

[Caliban]

Yes, any of us can adjust the Bible to fit with what we want and therefore what we may dictate is true.

But, about how to relate in a close relationship . . . God's word has put me through major correction, along with how my mother confronted how I related. And still plenty of people confront me . . . though they do not use the Bible to back themselves up. But there are plenty of times when I get confronted, but then Bible things come to mind to back those people up.

And it is not what I started out thinking and wanting. The correction of the Bible has been grievous, for me, but afterward I have been very glad and I enjoy loving the way the Bible says to relate: it has helped me to get my lady friend who does not only confront me but is an example for me. Sharing with her and evaluating how I relate, by the Bible, has helped me go into relating in ways I never thought of, beforehand.

Just for one practical example > I would try to help her with some practical thing, and she would say no and I would get bent out of shape that I was being there for her and she was refusing me. But I would see how I was getting into bitterness, and God's word says >

"Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them." (Colossians 3:19)

So, I knew that right away I first needed to fight that bitterness and get into loving her gently and humbly, before I went any further with her. And do not try to control her, because it also is written >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

And I could see yes I was trying to lord myself over her, to change how she did things practically. Then, when I had prayed and got cleared of the negative and nasty stuff, it came to me, once, "Ask her why she does that." And her reason was very thoughtful for someone else, not only practical. She had compassion in her reasoning!!!

But I can be so practical but ready to judge and criticize; so her answer helped me to see how I need to function more first with compassion and patience and staying kind no matter how others react to me.

And this was not how I used to be. I still can get into only using people and criticizing people, first. So, in my case, the Bible has not catered to how I wanted to see myself and tended to relate with people.

It is good that you have something that provides you guidance and comfort. I personally find a high degree of mixed messages in the Bible (if you consider it as a unified whole). For example, The NT says to hate your mother and father. Now I understand the difference context makes, and that passage is in relation to Christ, but it still does not elevate family. Other passaged however do elevate family. It requires a lot of cherry picking for me.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I agree with you, but I'm not sure if I'd feel morally compelled to do it.

To me, not doing it would be tantamount to cruelty.

 

[Caliban]

To me, not doing it would be tantamount to cruelty.

I think you are right.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Don't get hung up on lieing.
Best not to do it.
M

 

[Caliban]

Don't get hung up on lieing.
Best not to do it.
M

Sometimes it is the right thing to do--the moral thing.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Sometimes it is the right thing to do--the moral thing.

Must be a very fine line
when calling lieing the moral thing to do.

Seems the devil might often use that tool?

M