Deathbed Confessions

[Job3315]

I don't see the connection to this thread. Can you explain what you mean?

I apologize, I thought you said you were looking for answers from Christians. I just read you said humans.

 

[Caliban]

In thinking about the video more, I think that honesty in a radical, absolute type sense it can work. Basically, people like to come up with extreme case "thought experiments", dilemmas etc. But generally it never explored the notion of the path that got you there. Hitler and concentration camps did not just appear over night for instance. There is a gradual build up to that, and along that path there is lots of people doing things like "picking their battles", "taking the path of least resistance" etc. and kind of lying to themselves, turning a blind eye etc. that actually allows that sort of thing.

So the radical truth end of things can work, that is if you can stomach immediately standing up to it and being one of the first casualties of Totalitarianism or whatever Social Ill is running around. Martyred Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer being an example often cited for such things.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

I'm not confident that the radical or absolute truth ethic works. There are certainly times where the lie is preferred, if not morally necessary--hiding Anne Frank for instance.

Bonhoeffer might be a good example if it were not for the namesake of Lutheranism who help instigate antisemitism through Germany and Europe with the publication of On The Jews.

As a highly social species, truth telling is usually dependent on circumstances relating to whether the truth will lead to ostracization or reward.

 

[com7fy8]

she will find out.

Heaven must be unbearable if you know your eternity is matched by the eternal torment of people you loved on earth.

No, because she has warned him. Yes, she did love him, and he refused her love and the love of Jesus who so suffered for him so he would not go to hell.

We do what we can, but it is God's will for us to enjoy Him, and not allow evil people to have power to spoil this by how they ruin themselves by refusing God.

We offer our example of how we submit to God so we are living in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, we love people by offering this example in the sight of God. And if evil people refuse this . . . we need to not give up on our good example of living and loving in God's peace. Evil does not want us to do this; so evil does have volunteers to make this look bad, and accuse us of not caring, when they are the ones who do not care and have refused this.

So, the mother has offered the good which she can. It is not moral for her son to despise her by lying to her after she has done all in her love to help him. And I offer > it is not wise if you really love a wrong person, to allow him or her to decide if you love and have good and enjoyment with God. That is letting Satan and his people decide how we are, in Jesus. That would be . . . not smart, to say the least.

Now, of course, he might not realize how wrong he is. If he can lie to his own mother, like that, after all the time he has shared with her . . . if she has been a truly Christian example . . . he is deeply messed up in darkness. And however he supposes he loves her is some kind of a trick on himself, if he does not love her by wanting to share all the good of Jesus with her.

And ones like her lying son are already in torment . . . because of their own character which is so anti-Jesus and therefore anti-love. God's love gives us almighty peace > "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) We have this, already, now. And people can see our example of this. So, if she has been his Christian example, but he just values lying to her . . . he is choosing to stay in the torment he already is in. And suffering about him will not help her, to say the least. That would be letting him drag her down with him.

If you have food and you know someone refuses to share your food with you, you don't let that make you sit and starve to death!! lolololol

 

[Caliban]

No, because she has warned him. Yes, she did love him, and he refused her love and the love of Jesus who so suffered for him so he would not go to hell.

We do what we can, but it is God's will for us to enjoy Him, and not allow evil people to have power to spoil this by how they ruin themselves by refusing God.

We offer our example of how we submit to God so we are living in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, we love people by offering this example in the sight of God. And if evil people refuse this . . . we need to not give up on our good example of living and loving in God's peace. Evil does not want us to do this; so evil does have volunteers to make this look bad, and accuse us of not caring, when they are the ones who do not care and have refused this.

So, the mother has offered the good which she can. It is not moral for her son to despise her by lying to her after she has done all in her love to help him. And I offer > it is not wise if you really love a wrong person, to allow him or her to decide if you love and have good and enjoyment with God. That is letting Satan and his people decide how we are, in Jesus. That would be . . . not smart, to say the least.

Now, of course, he might not realize how wrong he is. If he can lie to his own mother, like that, after all the time he has shared with her . . . if she has been a truly Christian example . . . he is deeply messed up in darkness. And however he supposes he loves her is some kind of a trick on himself, if he does not love her by wanting to share all the good of Jesus with her.

And ones like her lying son are already in torment . . . because of their own character which is so anti-Jesus and therefore anti-love. God's love gives us almighty peace > "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) We have this, already, now. And people can see our example of this. So, if she has been his Christian example, but he just values lying to her . . . he is choosing to stay in the torment he already is in. And suffering about him will not help her, to say the least. That would be letting him drag her down with him.

If you have food and you know someone refuses to share your food with you, you don't let that make you sit and starve to death!! lolololol

There are too many unsubstantiated theological speculations here. Let's assume he is a non-believer for good reasons.

 

[com7fy8]

Let's assume he is a non-believer for good reasons.

. . . a good reason to live in torment of fear and the weakness of giving in to lust pleasures and the pain of selfish living . . .

instead of enjoying God in His peace while sharing with others who live in Jesus' way of loving . . .

I would say there is no good reason to not love with God and one another, caring for any and all people.

By lying to her, he is staying away from how only God is able to make us genuine in love and strong in His almighty peace so we can't be ravaged and tormented in unforgiveness and selfish angry reacting and the pain we are weak enough to keep on suffering while we stay weak for selfish pleasure seeking. I would say there is no good reason to stay in stuff like this which lurks in unbelief.

Jesus gives us "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) Biblical believing brings us to this. God's peace is almighty to guard our hearts and minds > Philippians 4:6-7 > there is no good reason to keep on staying weak so cruel and chaotic stuff can keep on getting the better of us. And we can be enjoying our Heavenly Father and loving as His family, instead. And our example of this can help others to join us. How we are can spread to others > so, staying in a mess can help only to spread my mess into others > there is no good reason for this.

 

[Caliban]

. . . a good reason to live in torment of fear and the weakness of giving in to lust pleasures and the pain of selfish living . . .

instead of enjoying God in His peace while sharing with others who live in Jesus' way of loving . . .

I would say there is no good reason to not love with God and one another, caring for any and all people.

By lying to her, he is staying away from how only God is able to make us genuine in love and strong in His almighty peace so we can't be ravaged and tormented in unforgiveness and selfish angry reacting and the pain we are weak enough to keep on suffering while we stay weak for selfish pleasure seeking. I would say there is no good reason to stay in stuff like this which lurks in unbelief.

Jesus gives us "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) Biblical believing brings us to this. God's peace is almighty to guard our hearts and minds > Philippians 4:6-7 > there is no good reason to keep on staying weak so cruel and chaotic stuff can keep on getting the better of us. And we can be enjoying our Heavenly Father and loving as His family, instead. And our example of this can help others to join us. How we are can spread to others > so, staying in a mess can help only to spread my mess into others > there is no good reason for this.

I think you are hearing the word unbeliever in my post and making a jump toward the pejorative. For the sake of this thread, our hypothetical nonbeliever is quite happy with his non belief and he feels pity for his confused mother.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I'm not confident that the radical or absolute truth ethic works. There are certainly times where the lie is preferred, if not morally necessary--hiding Anne Frank for instance.

Bonhoeffer might be a good example if it were not for the namesake of Lutheranism who help instigate antisemitism through Germany and Europe with the publication of On The Jews.

As a highly social species, truth telling is usually dependent on circumstances relating to whether the truth will lead to ostracization or reward.

That has been my position too, especially in the past. I'm sort of questioning it a bit in light of getting more into Stoicism and other philosophy for self improvement. I think it holds more water than what most think, but I do remember having some flash backs playing role playing games of my youth, especially things like Dungeons and Dragons where on the ethics and morality system, a very strict alignment, Lawful Good, could be nicknamed "Lawful Stupid" depending on how people role played the situation where they will be forthright even in situations where that means immediate suicide, even Jesus in the NT has a line for that when he talks about being "As wise as serpents and peaceful as doves."

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Usually we hear about a person confessing belief on their deathbed. But, imagine a non-believer at the bed of their mother who is a believer. She emotionally suffers because her son is not saved. He could make a false confession of faith before she dies and limit her emotional suffering by thinking he is now saved.

Is it moral or immoral for him to lie to her about his confession of faith in order to give her comfort before she dies?

So the last words spoken to a dieing one are a lie?
That's pretty cheesy.
M

 

[MehGuy]

Doesn't really matter to me.. although I think my parents would be wise to my lie and call me out on it and then our last conservation might be awkward.. lol.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Heaven must be unbearable if you know your eternity is matched by the eternal torment of people you loved on earth.

Ones in heaven will miss no one.
M

 

[durangodawood]

Ones in heaven will miss no one.
M

Ok. Problem solved.

 

[Caliban]

That has been my position too, especially in the past. I'm sort of questioning it a bit in light of getting more into Stoicism and other philosophy for self improvement. I think it holds more water than what most think, but I do remember having some flash backs playing role playing games of my youth, especially things like Dungeons and Dragons where on the ethics and morality system, a very strict alignment, Lawful Good, could be nicknamed "Lawful Stupid" depending on how people role played the situation where they will be forthright even in situations where that means immediate suicide, even Jesus in the NT has a line for that when he talks about being "As wise as serpents and peaceful as doves."

I like stoic philosophy also. I think our current incarnation of Western Philosophy and values are often an awkward mix of Greek and Christian thought. For example, Marcus Aurelius though martyrs were foolish and he couldn't understand why someone would throw away their only life for a cause. We have a blended view of martyrdom and morality now. It is not often consistent.

 

[Caliban]

Ones in heaven will miss no one.
M

Objection your Honor--speculation!

 

[Caliban]

So the last words spoken to a dieing one are a lie?
That's pretty cheesy.
M

I don't know what you mean by cheesy. The lie would likely cause the mother to feel great peace and satisfaction as she dies. That may be noble, as her son sets aside his need to feel understood and respected for his beliefs.

 

[Caliban]

I apologize, I thought you said you were looking for answers from Christians. I just read you said humans.

Yes, any human will do nicely. All are welcome.

 

[Caliban]

Doesn't really matter to me.. although I think my parents would be wise to my lie and call me out on it and then our last conservation might be awkward.. lol.

“No legacy is so rich as honesty.”

--Shakespeare from All’s Well That Ends Well

 

[zippy2006]

Why not?

Because it's not permissible to lie to get what you want. It's not permissible to do evil that good may come. Even on a weak consent-based ethics your hypothetical fails. Your mother would in no way give consent, in a general way, for people to lie to her about beliefs she considers to be of utmost importance in order that she might feel better. If she really cares that much about your religious beliefs then you shouldn't lie to her about them. That's called integrity.

The idea that this constitutes some sort of dilemma is just a symptom of an atrophied moral conscience.

 

[eleos1954]

Usually we hear about a person confessing belief on their deathbed. But, imagine a non-believer at the bed of their mother who is a believer. She emotionally suffers because her son is not saved. He could make a false confession of faith before she dies and limit her emotional suffering by thinking he is now saved.

Is it moral or immoral for him to lie to her about his confession of faith in order to give her comfort before she dies?

If he gives a false confession and she is comforted no problem ... his lie is between Him and God ... Judgement is totally up to the Lord.

 

[Caliban]

Because it's not permissible to lie to get what you want. It's not permissible to do evil that good may come. Even on a weak consent-based ethics your hypothetical fails. Your mother would in no way give consent, in a general way, for people to lie to her about beliefs she considers to be of utmost importance in order that she might feel better. If she really cares that much about your religious beliefs then you shouldn't lie to her about them. That's called integrity.

The idea that this constitutes some sort of dilemma is just a symptom of an atrophied moral conscience.

I don't think it reflects an "atrophied moral conscience," maybe a secular one. I don't consider that a negative since I oppose a moral system based on theistic beliefs.

Would your version of morality allow a family to lie to Nazi's in order to shelter Anne Frank?

 

[zippy2006]

I don't think it reflects an "atrophied moral conscience," maybe a secular one. I don't consider that a negative since I oppose a moral system based on theistic beliefs.

Would your version of morality allow a family to lie to Nazi's in order to shelter Anne Frank?

You really have no interest in defending the silly scenario of the OP, do you? I get it. Who would?