30+ Bible verses that support universal salvation

[Strong in Him]

There is no such animal!

That's not what Scripture says.

Eternal death - those who don't believe will perish.
Not; well they'll die for a bit but then one day they'll be a "heavenly gulp" and they'll find themselves in God anyway sinners absorbed by a Holy God.

 

[Strong in Him]

The salvation of the Living God is centered wholly within Himself. It is NOT in the possibility dimension of might or could or maybe depending on you!

The identical many made sinners are the many made righteous: every last one!

So there's no point in preaching repentance, the Gospel or Christ dying for sin, then.
We might as well all live exactly as we please, looking after number 1 - we'll all be forgiven and in heaven one day anyway.

Still not answered a post I made several pages ago.

 

[mlepfitjw]

So there's no point in preaching repentance, the Gospel or Christ dying for sin, then.
We might as well all live exactly as we please, looking after number 1 - we'll all be forgiven and in heaven one day anyway.

Still not answered a post I made several pages ago.

What made you decide to turn to the Good news? Anything at all? Was it just to save your self from hell ? Maybe it was the belief that everything was going to come to a great end ?

 

[Jord Simcha]

Of course.
Not marriage though.

I wasn't arguing that here. Here we were talking about love for others in general, in relation to empathy for those who allegedly would be tormented forever.

The wages of sin is death - eternal death; separation from God. Adam and Eve DID die when they ate the fruit; they were separated from God; spiritually and physically.
That will be the punishment, imo; knowing without doubt who God is and that it is too late to get to know him, become his child etc, because you are still unforgiven and dead in your sins.

First part, ok, that is scripture. But to add eternal to it, is questionable in my opinion.

Has it ever occurred to you that if you can't harmonise an idea with the rest of Scripture, that idea is false?

Absolutely. The idea of eternal hell.

If you start with the principle that because God is love then everyone must get a "happy ever after" ending; I'm sure you can find Scriptures to support that.
Love is patient, kind, not rude and a whole host of other things, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7.
Love also does not force, make someone do something they don't want or ignore/disrespect their own choices. If you invited someone for a meal and they said "I'm a vegetarian", I doubt you would say, "tough; everyone eats meat in this house/I've made it, you're going to eat it." A good host would ask beforehand if they had any dietary requirements - that's showing love, respect and hospitality."

And love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8

You find it easy to have perfect thoughts and desires 24/7? To never ever speak in anger or get irritated with someone? To give to everyone, and never fail to do good or show compassion?

Easier than you'd think, yes. I could do better in the charity department, though, for sure.

And perfect thoughts, well no, but that is why we have to take every thought captive to Jesus Christ.

Does that apply to you too - if you are wrong?

Of course.

Or maybe it's not the truth?
If I held a belief that all orthodox churches, most theologians and commentators, opposed; I hope I would at least begin to question if my understanding of Scripture was wrong.

Majority opinion has no effect with God.

The majority is wrong. That can be read. Though in the beginning of my walk with God I was more hopeful about other people's salvation and didn't think it was this bad.

I'm saying that I know I am saved and belong to God.
I might argue with other Christians on minor matters - for example, the ordination of women, and have done. In that case, yes, I do believe they've interpreted the Scriptures incorrectly. But they may very well still be saved - it's not a teaching that affects salvation.

Any other examples of doctrinal issues that you think people might differ on yet still might be saved?

Except that the Gospel doesn't say that all are saved.
Jesus said; "whoever believes has eternal life", and "unless you repent, you will perish", Luke 13:3. John also said, "whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son does not have life", 1 John 5:12, John 3:36.

I didn't say that here. I said all saved people are being lead into the truth by the Spirit of God. What follows from this is that they will be correct in doctrine (after abiding in Christ for a while). The fact that there are so many false preachers adds to the time it takes, in my opinion.

It's fairly easy to say good things and even quote Bible verses; it doesn't mean that someone is a Christian.

You might think that is easy, but it really isn't, at least not to find the Kingdom of Heaven.

"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." Luke 13:24

Hope? Surely you believe that all are going to be saved? So you WILL be with her in heaven - just not romantically, or married.

That is true. But unlike you I don't believe the abolition of marriage is the abolition of romance.

God forbid!

What if I add to it they have to go through the Lake of Fire if they don't repent?

That's my whole point - why would anyone need to repent and give up things which they find pleasing, like sin, if they are bound to go to heaven anyway?

Do you know not that it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance? (Romans 2:4)

Would such an approach be popular? Sure, people have itching ears - "here is the Gospel and what God has done for you. Here's how he wants you to live for him. But if you don't accept either, if you throw his love back in his face; you'll be in heaven one day anyway."

Perhaps. But I think a church like that is at risk for being peresecuted a lot.

My question is; why?
If you believe that everyone will be saved one day and in heaven one day; what reason do they have to turn from sin, accept God and change their lives NOW?

Because of repentance. If they start to believe, they'll change their ways.

I've never heard a preacher with unorthodox beliefs like yours, no; most likely they'd be stripped of their right to preach.

See, that's what I mean by expected persecution.

You've said that you are allowed to judge someone's salvation; you must have a view.

I do. We can discuss it in private if you want.

His testimony and his sermons.
Anyway, even if he wasn't at the time, he will be now.

I think he wasn't saved. Forgot what I based it on (a quote I think).

Yes; but people can still say the "right Christian things", or sing hymns about God's goodness, and not believe it.

True faith shows.

People report the news to let others know what is going on - and because they get paid for it.
I have gone for days without listening to the news; no big deal.

There is a point to preaching the Gospel, because Jesus told us to. He is the only Way to the Father and the only One who can save us. Even you, in this thread, have been talking about being saved.
But if everyone is going to be in heaven with God one day, whether they have been saved and lived for God or whether they have rejected him and died as sinners - there's no point in preaching the Gospel. In fact, there's no Gospel to preach.
Look how many wars are cause by religion. You could stop all that by saying "cool it guys; you're all going to the same place."

Not sure what you're arguing here. If I'm right there is no Gospel, but it could stop all wars if true?

 

[Strong in Him]

What made you decide to turn to the Good news? Anything at all? Was it just to save your self from hell ? Maybe it was the belief that everything was going to come to a great end ?

I went to Sunday school from the age of 4, and heard "God loves you" from an early age.
Gradually I came to accept that this was really true - I was telling myself "he loves the world but not me." Actually, I still believe that I heard him speak to me one night, saying just that; "Jesus loves you." But because I felt worthless, it took a long time to sink it.

I rededicated myself many times, learnt things, repented of things, grew in faith and had prayer answered. But I was never aware of saying "I have been living a sinful life; I am now choosing a life with God."
Some friends and I often wished we had a dramatic road-to-Damascus type conversion; they are often more impressive as a testimony and real turning from darkness to light, type moments.

 

[mlepfitjw]

I went to Sunday school from the age of 4, and heard "God loves you" from an early age.
Gradually I came to accept that this was really true - I was telling myself "he loves the world but not me." Actually, I still believe that I heard him speak to me one night, saying just that; "Jesus loves you." But because I felt worthless, it took a long time to sink it.

I rededicated myself many times, learnt things, repented of things, grew in faith and had prayer answered. But I was never aware of saying "I have been living a sinful life; I am now choosing a life with God."
Some friends and I often wished we had a dramatic road-to-Damascus type conversion; they are often more impressive as a testimony and real turning from darkness to light, type moments.

Thank you Strong In Him for getting back with me. I would like to share my experience with you now in turn.

I had a similar experience. Heard about God, and Satan at very early age in life. Discovered Satanism at the age of 14 and had stayed in the darkness for a long time, even mocking believers in Jesus Christ, there where times I laid in bad just asking for forgiveness cause I was so scared of going to hell and being cast away for ever because the God I grew up knowing did that people as far I was concerned. I was a very mean human being, and only desired my own selfish ways, and had bad relationships. Went in and out of churches off and on.

Then at the age of 25 or 26 when I had struck a point in my life where nothing was fulfilling to me any more so I decide to watch people preaching on youtube. Then I was give a bible by someone who was very nice, and caring towards me, was the NIV.

I started reading more of the bible and learning about who Jesus Christ was but when I first became a christian I was still a babe in christ, and I was in my flesh and I would judge people just like the pharisees would look and mock Jesus because I was looking at everyone else around me sin, and not my own sin which was causing a huge conflict in my life.

(notice how I am a believer at this point but still have sin in my own life -- man I was such a babe in christ not realize these key factors of even believers still have their own sins they have to deal with)

Then one day the Lord sent me a teacher on youtube no-less but someone who was trying to discover the truth about what it was and what lied at the heart of the matter. He helped me understand that it was always about looking to Jesus Christ, and what He did for all people.

That God really loved the entire World (population), that He did send His son to die on the Cross and take away the sins of the world and not to condemn it but to save it through His shed blood.

It's not about point at people and mocking them for not being like the rest of us who decided to choose Christ, but to be humble and have humility among the lost, and sick who need a doctor, and we are unable to help anyone if we can't understand that we were once lost and broken at some point in life too, and the answers lied in Jesus which came and brought us peace by the spirit that is not of this world.

 

[Strong in Him]

Thank you Strong In Him for getting back with me. I would like to share my experience with you now in turn.

I had a similar experience. Heard about God, and Satan at very early age in life. Discovered Satanism at the age of 14 and had stayed in the darkness for a long time, even mocking believers in Jesus Christ, there where times I laid in bad just asking for forgiveness cause I was so scared of going to hell and being cast away for ever because the God I grew up knowing did that people as far I was concerned. I was a very mean human being, and only desired my own selfish ways, and had bad relationships. Went in and out of churches off and on.

Then at the age of 25 or 26 when I had struck a point in my life where nothing was fulfilling to me any more so I decide to watch people preaching on youtube. Then I was give a bible by someone who was very nice, and caring towards me, was the NIV.

I started reading more of the bible and learning about who Jesus Christ was but when I first became a christian I was still a babe in christ, and I was in my flesh and I would judge people just like the pharisees would look and mock Jesus because I was looking at everyone else around me sin, and not my own sin which was causing a huge conflict in my life.

(notice how I am a believer at this point but still have sin in my own life -- man I was such a babe in christ not realize these key factors of even believers still have their own sins they have to deal with)

Then one day the Lord sent me a teacher on youtube no-less but someone who was trying to discover the truth about what it was and what lied at the heart of the matter. He helped me understand that it was always about looking to Jesus Christ, and what He did for all people.

That God really loved the entire World (population), that He did send His son to die on the Cross and take away the sins of the world and not to condemn it but to save it through His shed blood.

It's not about point at people and mocking them for not being like the rest of us who decided to choose Christ, but to be humble and have humility among the lost, and sick who need a doctor, and we are unable to help anyone if we can't understand that we were once lost and broken at some point in life too, and the answers lied in Jesus which came and brought us peace by the spirit that is not of this world.

Thank you for sharing your experience and what God has been doing in your life.

I am not trying to mock anyone, and I am so sorry if my posts come across like that.
I really do not understand the position being put forward here, that God will one day save everyone - no matter what they believed on earth, whether they were a lifelong Christian, a Buddhist, JW or non believer who wanted nothing to do with God. If I understand their position correctly; all will be saved and in heaven with God.

That is not what the Bible teaches.
Jesus, and the early church, taught that he is the only way to the Father, and our only Saviour. There is nothing that says "you don't have to believe this now, you can repent after you die".

I can't make anyone believe anything; only God can do that. But I can't see that belief being taught without saying something to challenge it.

 

[Light of the East]

So there's no point in preaching repentance, the Gospel or Christ dying for sin, then.
We might as well all live exactly as we please, looking after number 1 - we'll all be forgiven and in heaven one day anyway.

Still not answered a post I made several pages ago.

I would bet that those who are undergoing the excedingly painful destruction of their sinful nature in the next life would highly disagree with you regarding living exactly as we please. You appear to be of the mind that Universal Salvation means that there is no suffering for sin. That is not what the Fathers who taught Universal Salvation taught. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, King Leopold of Belgium, etc. do not murder millions and millions and then just waltz up to St. Peter and say "Let me in." I have no problem thinking that the justice of God is still being worked out on them even right now, and much to their screaming displeasure.

Of course there are reasons to preach repentance. First of all, the Good News is that Jesus Christ has defeated death by His death, and His Resurrection guarantees that death is defeated. It is truly Good News to all who have been held in bondage by the fear of death.

Then there is the Kingship of Christ. We are called into a Kingdom and called to worship, adore, and honor the King with all that we have, giving Him what is rightly His due. He will rule and reign forever, and we are called to make disciples (subjects) of this Kingdom.

Then there is the issue of our becoming gods, as St. Athanasius said. The whole purpose of the Crucifixion was that Christ took on human nature and healed it. By uniting with Him, our own nature can be healed and we become fully what we were meant to be. We become light as He is light. What He is by nature, we become by grace. These are marvelous promises.

Then there is the issue of reward in the next life. Who would not want to have Christ waiting for him with rewards for faithful and obedient service rather than a lash and stripes for disobedience?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Our "false God" is the trinitarian God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Our "false God" is the Good News that Christ died for all and that through death He has conquered death.

Our "false Christ" is the One who died and justified all people (Romans 5:18-19).

What "Good News" is it that Christ only died for a very small and limited few? How is that in any way, shape, or form a "Gospel of Good News?" How is it the true God (who is, according to proper theological understanding, omnipotent and omniscient) who in your view does not have the power to save even the most rebellious and lacks the wisdom to find a way which will bring them to repentance, either here or after earthly death? Is that the truly "all-wise God" of the Scriptures? Is that the truly "all-merciful God" of which the Bible speaks?

You hellists use words like "love" and "mercy" without really taking the time to seriously meditate upon the epistemological outcome of such words and their use. You create a God who in foreknowledge of all things, creates a cosmos and mankind, foreknowing the Fall of man, and then either refuses to have a solution to the destruction of the majority of them, or gets blindsided by the Fall and can't figure out a way to undo the damage.

But that is not the true and living God at all. He is love - all-powerful, all-knowing, all-compassionate. The picture you paint of Him is horrendous. No wonder people despise Christianity. How would a pagan wish to come to believe in a God who has sent all his ancestors, whom he loves, to eternal torment simply because the Gospel didn't come to his African village until 1500 years after Christ died? And then the missionary blames the people for going to hell when they had no chance to respond to the message of Christ because they never heard it. Yet this is what Western Christianity has taught for centuries.

Look scripture declares the TRUTH about 2 places in the afterlife with its membership in each place. Those in heaven redeemed by the blood of Christ receive eternal life and bliss with Jesus and those who have not been redeemed with receive eternal torment along with the devil and his angels in the lake of fire for all eternity.

BTW- I'm a staunch Trinitarian and defender of the 2 natures in Christ. So much for your theory about me.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

You just did exactly what you accused FineLinen of doing - tampering with the Word of God.

The Greek word thelo does not mean wish, as in sitting around sighing and wishing I had an ice cream cone on a hot July day.

to will, have in mind, intend

1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose

If you do a lexical search of this word and its uses in other scriptures, you find that it means a determined intent, not sitting around dreaming of something that will n and ever come to pass.

the facts remain not all are saved so it cannot mean what you think it means since the evidence points to opposite conclusion.

 

[Strong in Him]

First part, ok, that is scripture. But to add eternal to it, is questionable in my opinion.

Sorry, I meant 'spiritual death' - separation from God.
It is only eternal if we do not repent and accept Jesus.

Absolutely. The idea of eternal hell.

Then how do you deal with Scriptures that talk about eternal punishment - like Matthew 25:46?

And love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8

I know it doesn't.
But love doesn't mean turning a blind eye, or giving everyone everything they want.

Easier than you'd think, yes. I could do better in the charity department, though, for sure.

Well good for you! But no one's perfect 24/7.

Majority opinion has no effect with God.

Not always; no.
But if there are a billion Christians in the world, several million read Scripture in the same way with regard to salvation and the nature of God, and only a few thousand say otherwise, it's more likely to be the several million who are correct - especially when Jesus and the early church taught the same thing.

Any other examples of doctrinal issues that you think people might differ on yet still might be saved?

The ordination of women isn't doctrine.
People can believe it, or not; it makes no difference to a person's salvation.

What if I add to it they have to go through the Lake of Fire if they don't repent?

So if someone dies in their sins, without repenting and accepting Jesus, that have to go through the Lake of fire? Why? So that they'll either be completely destroyed, or come out saying "I surrender! Please, no more; I believe in Jesus"?
I hope the answer to that is 'no'. The idea that God tortures people after death until they are forced to submit and believe, is even worse."
Love respects people's choices, and God does not force anyone.

Do you know not that it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance? (Romans 2:4)

That wasn't what I asked.
I said "why preach repentance at all if everyone is going to be saved in the end?"

Perhaps. But I think a church like that is at risk for being peresecuted a lot.

For preaching a false Gospel - yes, possibly.

Because of repentance. If they start to believe, they'll change their ways.

Again, why does someone need to repent and change their ways if ultimately they are going to be saved anyway?

See, that's what I mean by expected persecution.

No, it's about making sure that preachers don't lead others astray with false doctrine.

I used to go to a Christian healing centre. One day I saw one of the younger members of staff in the town with a group of people, handing out leaflets that were definitely not in line with the Bible, or the teachings of the healing centre for whom he worked.
I showed one of the leaflets to a counsellor at the centre - next thing I heard, the young man was asked to leave.

No Christian church or group can have preachers and leaders who mislead the flock.

I think he wasn't saved. Forgot what I based it on (a quote I think).

Well I'm a Methodist and have read Wesley's biography and sermons - I'll take those over a half remembered quote.

By the way I am talking about the 18th century preacher and not anyone else of the same name.

Not sure what you're arguing here. If I'm right there is no Gospel, but it could stop all wars if true?

I'm saying that if your position is that everyone, no matter what their beliefs, is saved eventually then a) yes, you could stop all wars; all this "my god is better than your god" stuff that leads to killings and terrorism. And b) that there is then no Good News - or at least, it changes completely. "Here is the Good News folks; God couldn't care less what you believe, whether you go to church every week or never - you're all going to be saved anyway. Even if you think that you don't want to be; you don't have a choice."

There might well be people who would think "well if that's the case, it doesn't matter what I do down here on earth. I can live for me and be as selfish as I want - I'm still going to heaven."

 

[FineLinen]

Sorry, I meant 'spiritual death' - separation from God.
It is only eternal if we do not repent and accept Jesus.

All death, (thanatos), is swallowed in the Heavenly Patent of the Master of Reconciliation!

ALL thanatos is swallowed by Him in Zao Life.

 

[Jord Simcha]

Sorry, I meant 'spiritual death' - separation from God.
It is only eternal if we do not repent and accept Jesus.

Are we sure spiritual death is separation from God thoguh?

Isn't spiritual death a thing that brings us closer to God instead, thus actually the end of separation from God?

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
Romans 6:3

Then how do you deal with Scriptures that talk about eternal punishment - like Matthew 25:46?

I wouldn't claim I understand them well.

But there are a few things about them. What is translated as eternal is the word "aionios" (Greek) in the original. It is not always translated as eternal. So perhaps it isn't really eternal punishment.

I know it doesn't.
But love doesn't mean turning a blind eye, or giving everyone everything they want.

Well great. That's one step closer to believing in universal salvation. That love never fails. For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, that the world might be saved through him (combination of John 3:16 first half and John 3:17 second half).

Well good for you! But no one's perfect 24/7.

True. I do ask for forgiveness on a regular basis for any wrong thoughts mainly.

Not always; no.
But if there are a billion Christians in the world, several million read Scripture in the same way with regard to salvation and the nature of God, and only a few thousand say otherwise, it's more likely to be the several million who are correct - especially when Jesus and the early church taught the same thing.

I disagree with that.

And according to some other universalists that post here universal salvation is exactly what the early church taught.

Not that I really care about that, because there were probably already many false teachers back then as well.

The ordination of women isn't doctrine.
People can believe it, or not; it makes no difference to a person's salvation.

Yeah, it doesn't. Does that make it not doctrine? If so, my mistake. I was just curious what other things you might differ on with other Christians that you'd still consider your brothers and sisters though.

So if someone dies in their sins, without repenting and accepting Jesus, that have to go through the Lake of fire? Why?

You'd have to ask God that. I'm curious too (also how it will go).

So that they'll either be completely destroyed, or come out saying "I surrender! Please, no more; I believe in Jesus"?
I hope the answer to that is 'no'. The idea that God tortures people after death until they are forced to submit and believe, is even worse."
Love respects people's choices, and God does not force anyone.

I'm not sure. I do disagree though that forcing submission that way would be worse than eternally the same torture.

That wasn't what I asked.
I said "why preach repentance at all if everyone is going to be saved in the end?"

Well I said that because you asked "what is the need to repent?".

The need may be gone for eternal life consequences sake, but the goodness of God which speaks from that truth that all will be saved will convict the person that believes it of sin and will bring forth repentance.

For preaching a false Gospel - yes, possibly.

No doubt the persecutors would believe they'd have God on their side.

Again, why does someone need to repent and change their ways if ultimately they are going to be saved anyway?

Their conscience perhaps.

No, it's about making sure that preachers don't lead others astray with false doctrine.

I used to go to a Christian healing centre. One day I saw one of the younger members of staff in the town with a group of people, handing out leaflets that were definitely not in line with the Bible, or the teachings of the healing centre for whom he worked.
I showed one of the leaflets to a counsellor at the centre - next thing I heard, the young man was asked to leave.

No Christian church or group can have preachers and leaders who mislead the flock.

Right. But I don't see you protesting other churches that you might have differences with.

edit: Correction. Apparently you protested this leaflet after all.

Well I'm a Methodist and have read Wesley's biography and sermons - I'll take those over a half remembered quote.

By the way I am talking about the 18th century preacher and not anyone else of the same name.

Yes, that John Wesley.

I just went and googled some of his quotes, to see if he said something that is false according to me.

This is what I came up with:

"When a man becomes a Christian, he becomes industrious, trustworthy and prosperous. Now, if that man, when he gets all he can and saves all he can, does not give all he can, I have more hope for Judas Iscariot than for that man!"

I disagree with that. (Though it's ironic to note that he has some hope for Judas.)

You have to "give all you can", or you lose your salvation?

Nonsense. Sounds like works salvation-leaven got into his salvation doctrine.

I'm saying that if your position is that everyone, no matter what their beliefs, is saved eventually then a) yes, you could stop all wars; all this "my god is better than your god" stuff that leads to killings and terrorism.

Hmmm. In heaven maybe. After the fact.

And b) that there is then no Good News - or at least, it changes completely. "Here is the Good News folks; God couldn't care less what you believe, whether you go to church every week or never - you're all going to be saved anyway. Even if you think that you don't want to be; you don't have a choice."

Except God does care what we believe.

There might well be people who would think "well if that's the case, it doesn't matter what I do down here on earth. I can live for me and be as selfish as I want - I'm still going to heaven."

Yes, I realise that's a common sense thing to think, but the Word of God says that the goodness of God leads to repentance, so the effects will probably be godly.

Thanks for your reply. I'm enjoying the discussion.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE Strong in Him. Then how do you deal with Scriptures that talk about eternal punishment - like Matthew 25:46?

The Greek does not say that. The word "aionios" is mistranslated as "eternal." It does not mean that. There is a specific Greek word for eternal - axios. That is only used in two places in the whole NT.

Not always; no.
But if there are a billion Christians in the world, several million read Scripture in the same way with regard to salvation and the nature of God, and only a few thousand say otherwise, it's more likely to be the several million who are correct - especially when Jesus and the early church taught the same thing.

The Early Church had five separate theological schools that taught three different eschatological ideas: eternal torment (1 school) annilihation (1 school) and universal salvation (3 schools). The schools teaching universal salvation continued until Emperor Justinian shut them down because he hated the idea.

Justinian was a politician first and foremost. He inherited a fractured empire in which warring factions of Christians were rioting in Jerusalem over the Council of Chalcedon and pagan tribes had taken over parts of the Empire because of weakness in the outlying parts. His desire was to united all the factions, take the lost lands back from the pagans, and restore Rome as a glorious world leader among empires.

It is interesting to note that in the 500 years prior to Justinian, not a single council was convened because universal salvation was considered to possibly be a heresy. Most heresies in the Church were dealt with in a far quicker fashion than that. Major saints in the Church openly taught Apokatastasis: St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Isaac the Syrian, and others. Your information is simply wrong.

So if someone dies in their sins, without repenting and accepting Jesus, that have to go through the Lake of fire? Why? So that they'll either be completely destroyed, or come out saying "I surrender! Please, no more; I believe in Jesus"?

First of all, the "Lake of Fire" is a metaphor. I find it bizarre how people will read the Book of Revelation, accept that there is highly symbolic language in it (aka "apocalyptic language") and read the book as such, but when they get to certain points, they insist upon a literal reading, believing that there is a literal lake with physical fire in it. That is lazy scholarship at best.

What is the Lake of Fire. Scripture itself gives us a clue. In Hebrews the writer states that our God is a "consuming fire." God, who fills the universe, is fire. I believe if we had spiritual eyes, we could see that we exist in this lake of fire. And what is the fire? It is nothing less than the passionate love of God which He has for all that exists. God is love. And God is fire.

What is the purpose of this fire? Is it to torture a soul until it cries "Uncle!" No. Again, the Scriptures give us clues. It is a refiner's fire. Jesus spoke of the wicked being cast into a "furnace of fire" When you look up the Greek word used here, you find that this word describes a refiner's (or smelting) furnace. It is a fire used to burn away impurities. I fully expect to experience this fire myself because of the many impurities in my soul. Of all the creatures created by God, only the Blessed Virgin Mary was without impurity. All the rest of us are going to need the impurities of our souls cleaned up - burned away by the smelter's furnace. Exactly how this takes place no one knows, but the Scriptures point to it.

I hope the answer to that is 'no'. The idea that God tortures people after death until they are forced to submit and believe, is even worse."

It is not about being forced to submit. It is about the soul being changed so that it willingly turns to God and away from its self-preoccupation, just as a flower turns to the sun. Your view shows that you are locked into the Western view of God as torturer. Try thinking instead of healing.

Love respects people's choices, and God does not force anyone.

Horsefeathers! Love never respects a choice that leads to self-destruction or harm. That's like saying that a father, seeing his small daughter walk out towards a busy highway with cars flying by would say "I must respect her choice." Do you see how utterly stupid this idea is? Yes, God wants love from a free choice, but until we are cleansed, our sin inhibits our ability to return God's love freely and fully.

That wasn't what I asked.
I said "why preach repentance at all if everyone is going to be saved in the end?"

I answered this a few posts back. We are commanded to. (Matthew 28) We do so out of love so that people can be freed from being enslaved to the passions which are killing them. We do so to announce that Jesus Christ is Lord of all and all must respond to Him. We do so to keep people from experiencing the severe pains of God's chastizement before they enter into union with Him. The more you repent down here, the more you cooperate with God and change in your very being, the better it will be for you in the next life. There are many reasons.

No, it's about making sure that preachers don't lead others astray with false doctrine.

I would concur with you on this. Not that Apokatastasis is a false doctrine, but rather that people would respond to it in the wrong way. Human nature, being selfish and blinded with sin, could very well say "Well, if I'm going to make heaven anyway, I'll just keep doing what I am doing now. No need to repent and all that other stuff." The Early Fathers hid the teaching of Apokatastasis from the newly converted and the world for just this reason, only sharing it with the spiritually mature.

There might well be people who would think "well if that's the case, it doesn't matter what I do down here on earth. I can live for me and be as selfish as I want - I'm still going to heaven."

Two seconds into the chastening fires of God's scourging love and they will deeply regret ever thinking that way!!

 

[nolidad]

I agree, doesn't it sound like Gnosticism as well? Something revealed only to them?

Well one of them actually had the chutzpah to say what is in between the lines of written Scripture reveals more than what is written!!!

 

[Strong in Him]

I would bet that those who are undergoing the excedingly painful destruction of their sinful nature in the next life would highly disagree with you regarding living exactly as we please.

If in fact they are.
I see no Scriptural teaching which says that we may submit to Christ and have our sinful natures changed after death.

You appear to be of the mind that Universal Salvation means that there is no suffering for sin. That is not what the Fathers who taught Universal Salvation taught. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, King Leopold of Belgium, etc. do not murder millions and millions and then just waltz up to St. Peter and say "Let me in." I have no problem thinking that the justice of God is still being worked out on them even right now, and much to their screaming displeasure.

You mean, submit to Christ voluntarily now, or you will be punished for your sins after death; and that punishment will refine you so that you can be saved?

Of course there are reasons to preach repentance. First of all, the Good News is that Jesus Christ has defeated death by His death, and His Resurrection guarantees that death is defeated. It is truly Good News to all who have been held in bondage by the fear of death.

Yes; but everyone dies physically. Repentance doesn't mean that a person won't physically die.
And if your belief is true, than everyone will be saved whether they repent or not.

Then there is the Kingship of Christ. We are called into a Kingdom and called to worship, adore, and honor the King with all that we have, giving Him what is rightly His due. He will rule and reign forever, and we are called to make disciples (subjects) of this Kingdom.

Yes.
But if everyone is going to end up being saved anyway, why make disciples?

Then there is the issue of our becoming gods,

You what??
Not a chance. Even when we are like Jesus and in heaven with him, we won't be divine.

as St. Athanasius said. The whole purpose of the Crucifixion was that Christ took on human nature and healed it. By uniting with Him, our own nature can be healed and we become fully what we were meant to be.

We can become what God made us to be, yes - which is not divine.
We are created beings; never have been eternal, never will be.

We become light as He is light. What He is by nature, we become by grace.

Never mind Athanasius; where does Scripture say that?

Then there is the issue of reward in the next life. Who would not want to have Christ waiting for him with rewards for faithful and obedient service rather than a lash and stripes for disobedience?

Again, where does Scripture say that if people are disobedient, Christ is waiting for them with a whip to beat them?

We should repent of our sins because we are sorry that they are hurting God, rebellion against him and preventing us from having a relationship with him and responding to his love. Not because we might get rewards.

 

[Strong in Him]

All death, (thanatos), is swallowed in the Heavenly Patent of the Master of Reconciliation!

ALL thanatos is swallowed by Him in Zao Life.

These are the words of Finelinen, not the words of God.

 

[Der Alte]

...

The Early Church had five separate theological schools that taught three different eschatological ideas: eternal torment (1 school) annilihation (1 school) and universal salvation (3 schools). The schools teaching universal salvation continued until Emperor Justinian shut them down because he hated the idea....

I have seen this copy/paste many times on this forum but I have never seen any credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence and I don't mean that tired old copy/paste from Schaff.

 

[nolidad]

No, this is not a strawman. I am asking you, and anyone else who feels as you do, to engage your thoughts on what it means for God to create Ex Nihlo, that is, out of nothing and with no external force making Him create. In other words, it is a totally free creation.

Now think. If God creates, then He creates to a purpose or telos (ending). A goal is in mind. What is that goal? Whatever it is, it is the will of God that this goal be accomplished, and as the catechisms of various denominations state, God can do all His holy will. There is nothing that can defy His will.

So answer my question, please. Was it the goal and intention of God to create with the purposeful end being that the vast majority of human beings would suffer eternally? If it was, then belief in an eternal hell is correct. But of what character is a Supreme Being who would create sentient beings with the goal being nothing more than their eternal and unending torment?

I await your answer.

It is a strawman you beat! God created Ex-Deo! He did create for a purpose! And He will accomplish His purpose according to the counsel of His own will! And what we can know of that will is found only in the pages of sCripture!

No where is Scripture does universalism play a part for mankind or creatures. Just the opposite. Universalists here have sought ot mislead people about teh definition of aionos, owlam, and simple verbs. They make implications from verses and falsely use Greek grammar pretending that all teh greek speaking world except their chosen few have been deceived abou ttheir own language.

I await one clear verse that shows that God who said those in the lake of fire will suffer torment for ever and ever (aionos kai aionos) will have the ability to repent and be saved! And why aionos is defined in koine and modern greek dictionaries as forever except when modified specifically in a sentence)

 

[Jord Simcha]

It is a strawman you beat! God created Ex-Deo! He did create for a purpose! And He will accomplish His purpose according to the counsel of His own will! And what we can know of that will is found only in the pages of sCripture!

No where is Scripture does universalism play a part for mankind or creatures. Just the opposite. Universalists here have sought ot mislead people about teh definition of aionos, owlam, and simple verbs. They make implications from verses and falsely use Greek grammar pretending that all teh greek speaking world except their chosen few have been deceived abou ttheir own language.

I await one clear verse that shows that God who said those in the lake of fire will suffer torment for ever and ever (aionos kai aionos) will have the ability to repent and be saved! And why aionos is defined in koine and modern greek dictionaries as forever except when modified specifically in a sentence)

I can play that game too.

Please give me one verse that shows that not all will be reconciled to God.

You started the post strong though. He will accomplish His purpose.

and what is God's purpose for Jesus Christ? Hint: it's found in John 3:17.