Resurrection, First Resurrection and New Birth

[Zao is life]

Please read before you engage: we are "risen." We are resurrected "with" and "in" Christ. This comes through our spiritual union with Christ in salvation.

How did you come to be in spiritual union with Christ so that you could die with Him and be resurrected with Him?

By spiritual birth from above by the Spirit of Christ? Or by being made alive spiritually some other way? (You keep singing your "I did it my way" song), but your way will never come true - because God breathed life into you - He breathed your spirit into you when you were born from above by the Spirit of Christ). It was not "resurrected from death".

 

[rwb]

Yet until you and others with your theology changed the context, Paul was talking about physical resurrection from physical death from the beginning to the end of his talking about the resurrection in that passage, and nothing else.

If that were true, Paul would be a contradictory fool! He is saying no less here than what he has said elsewhere. Paul says here, the same thing he does in 1Co 15. He longs to be free from his mortal body of death, because he knows that it will not be the end of him, for he will be a spiritual body in the Kingdom of Heaven after he breathes his last on this earth.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Php 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
Php 1:21 ¶ For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Christ too, knowing in physical death He would be a spiritual body, with the Father in heaven, promised the thief that on that day he too would be with Christ in heaven (Paradise).

Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Lu 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

So too, Stephen, who was martyred, knew in death his spirit would go to be with the Lord in heaven.

Ac 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

 

[sovereigngrace]

How did you come to be in spiritual union with Christ so that you could die with Him and be resurrected with Him?

By spiritual birth from above by the Spirit of Christ? Or by being made alive spiritually some other way? (You keep singing your "I did it my way" song), but your way will never come true - because God breathed life into you - He breathed your spirit into you when you were born from above by the Spirit of Christ). It was not "resurrected from death".

Romans 6:3-6 says, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection (or) anastasis (Strong’s 386): Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

There are two Greek words used in Romans 6:3-10 that are used to describe the resurrection of Christ, and that are significantly in turn purposely equated to the believer and the new birth experience; they are egeiro (Strong’s 1453) and anastasis (Strong’s 386). Such a correlation between these two diverse types of resurrection (physical and spiritual) is only secured through Christ’s sinless life, atoning death and glorious resurrection, enabling the believer to walk in resurrection power and “newness of life.” The believer here is therefore supernaturally transferred from a condition of death into one of life. This undoubtedly relates (1) to a spiritual state, and, (2), to the here in now. It cannot relate to the physical resurrection which is still future and which occurs at the second coming of Christ.

The same two Greek words that are repeatedly employed to describe Christ’s physical resurrection from the dead are also used in Ephesians 5:14 to describe the new birth experience of the believer. The sinner being commanded: “Awake (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) thou that sleepest, and arise (or) anistemi (Strong’s 450) from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light” (Ephesians 5:14).

The resurrection portrayed here is again not a physical resurrection, but, a spiritual resurrection in which the recipient (the sinner) receives the joy of salvation. Through this spiritual resurrection, the believer receives the “light” of God and is therefore spared the awful sentence of eternal wrath. The verb “arise” in this text specifically relates to salvation and is a metaphor describing the spiritual resurrection that Christians undergo when they are lifted from the grave of sin. It also demonstrates the blessing that follows this resurrection. The true child of God receives the blessed light of God’s dear Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[sovereigngrace]

How did you come to be in spiritual union with Christ so that you could die with Him and be resurrected with Him?

By spiritual birth from above by the Spirit of Christ? Or by being made alive spiritually some other way? (You keep singing your "I did it my way" song), but your way will never come true - because God breathed life into you - He breathed your spirit into you when you were born from above by the Spirit of Christ). It was not "resurrected from death".

Are you suggesting that physical resurrection rather than spiritual resurrection is the actual means by which men shall escape the second death? Or put differently: are you suggesting that physical resurrection rather than spiritual resurrection is the actual means by which men escape eternal punishment? If so, do you have any corroboration for that interpretation of Revelation 20?

 

[Zao is life]

If that were true, Paul would be a contradictory fool! He is saying no less here than what he has said elsewhere. Paul says here, the same thing he does in 1Co 15. He longs to be free from his mortal body of death, because he knows that it will not be the end of him, for he will be a spiritual body in the Kingdom of Heaven after he breathes his last on this earth.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Php 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
Php 1:21 ¶ For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Christ too, knowing in physical death He would be a spiritual body, with the Father in heaven, promised the thief that on that day he too would be with Christ in heaven (Paradise).

Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Lu 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

So too, Stephen, who was martyred, knew in death his spirit would go to be with the Lord in heaven.

Ac 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Where did Peter received His Spirit? Resurrected from below? Or born from above?

Paul begins in 1 Cor 15 talking about the physical resurrection like this:

Now if Christ be preached that he rose (egeirō) from the dead,
how say some among you that there is no resurrection (anastasis) of the dead?
But if there be no resurrection (anastasis) of the dead,
then is Christ not risen (egeirō):
And if Christ be not risen (egeirō), then is our
preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because
we have testified of God that he raised up (egeiro)
Christ: whom he raised (egeiro) not up, if so be that the
dead rise (egeiro) not.

But now is Christ risen (egeiro) from the dead, and
become the fristfruits (aparchē) of them that slept
(koimaō)
For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection (anastasis) of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be
made alive (zōopoieō).
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits
(aparchē); afterward (epeita) they that are Christ’s at
his coming (perousia).

He does not change to a "spiritual" resurrection - he starts and finishes talking about the bodily resurrection of Christ and of those who will be resurrected when Christ returns.

The "spiritual" resurrection from below you want to believe in is not even a New Testament concept.

 

[Zao is life]

Are you suggesting that physical resurrection rather than spiritual resurrection is the actual means by which men shall escape the second death?

Did you receive your spirit from below when it was "resurrected from death"? Or from above when you were born from above by the Spirit above?

There is no such thing as "spiritual resurrection".

The means is (1) Christ's death and resurrection; and (2) God breathing your spirit into you, placing you in union with Christ. Your physical resurrection (the redemption of your body) at the return of Christ will complete your redemption - the redemption of your whole body, soul and spirit.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Did you receive your spirit from below when it was "resurrected from death"? Or from above when you were born from above by the Spirit above?

There is no such thing as "spiritual resurrection".

The means is (1) Christ's death and resurrection; and (2) God breathing your spirit into you, placing you in union with Christ. Your physical resurrection (the redemption of your body) at the return of Christ will complete your redemption - the redemption of your whole body, soul and spirit.

Stop avoiding the issue!

Do you have any biblical corroboration to support your interpretation of Revelation 20 that physical resurrection is the event that gives us a victory over eternal punishment? Or, put different, where does the New Testament teach that the physical resurrection is the actual means of delivering us from the second death?

 

[shilohsfoal]

If that were true, Paul would be a contradictory fool! He is saying no less here than what he has said elsewhere. Paul says here, the same thing he does in 1Co 15. He longs to be free from his mortal body of death, because he knows that it will not be the end of him, for he will be a spiritual body in the Kingdom of Heaven after he breathes his last on this earth.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Php 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
Php 1:21 ¶ For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Christ too, knowing in physical death He would be a spiritual body, with the Father in heaven, promised the thief that on that day he too would be with Christ in heaven (Paradise).

Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Lu 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

So too, Stephen, who was martyred, knew in death his spirit would go to be with the Lord in heaven.

Ac 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Paul said the resurrection has not taken place.At no time did Paul ever say that he was resurrected nor anyone other than Christ.But he did speak of some who claimed the resurrection has taken place as you do.

2 Timothy 2:17 and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,

2 Timothy 2:18 who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Paul said the resurrection has not taken place.

2 Timothy 2:17 and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,

2 Timothy 2:18 who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.

Yes, the physical resurrection.

 

[rwb]

Where did Peter received His Spirit? Resurrected from below? Or born from above?

Paul begins in 1 Cor 15 talking about the physical resurrection like this:

NO HE DOES NOT! He doesn't speak of the resurrection of our physical body until he says, I show you a mystery, we shall not all die, but we shall all be changed. Changed from mortal to immortal physically, because if our body is not changed to immortal and incorruptible then it cannot be re-united with our eternal spirit. Your ignoring the fact that there were some saying there in NO resurrection from the dead. So Paul sets them straight by arguing not only has Christ been bodily resurrected from the grave, to die no more, but that all who are in Christ need never fear death of our body. Why? Because in life we have partaken of the bodily resurrection of Christ through His Spirit in us when we were born from above.

Why does Paul say that if Christ is not risen from the dead, then all those who have already died, their faith was in vain, since Christ has not risen from the dead? But Paul goes into great detail to prove they had not died in vain, because they were of the first resurrection; the resurrection of Christ in life. Therefore having been born again from above, death cannot hold them, for Christ has defeated death. That's why before Christ ascended to heaven, He first descended to the lower parts of the earth to set captivity captive. He went to the grave (Abraham's Bosom) and empty the abode of Satan, which the grave is, and took all those who died in faith before Christ came, with Him to heaven when He ascended to the Father. Christ did not take them physically with Him to heaven, but through His Spirit that went from the grave to heaven as spiritual body, just as Paul, Christ, Stephen, and John said every believer does when we physically die.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept in Christ, and now since Christ has come, and now when He comes again all who are of Christ will also have their physical body resurrected to immortal life through eternity on the new earth.

But now is Christ risen (egeiro) from the dead, and
become the fristfruits (aparchē) of them that slept
(koimaō)
For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection (anastasis) of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be
made alive (zōopoieō).
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits
(aparchē); afterward (epeita) they that are Christ’s at
his coming (perousia).

He does not change to a "spiritual" resurrection - he starts and finishes talking about the bodily resurrection of Christ and of those who will be resurrected when Christ returns.

The "spiritual" resurrection from below you want to believe in is not even a New Testament concept.

I'm amazed, it seems you are so married to your doctrine that no amount of Scriptural proof texts will be of any persuasion to you. I only pray that others are not deceived by your erroneous doctrine.

 

[rwb]

Paul said the resurrection has not taken place.At no time did Paul ever say that he was resurrected nor anyone other than Christ.But he did speak of some who claimed the resurrection has taken place as you do.

2 Timothy 2:17 and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,

2 Timothy 2:18 who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.

It seems your doctrine has also blinded you to the teachings of the Apostle Paul. It is abundantly clear, as I have shown that Paul anticipated being with Christ in heaven when he breathed his last. It is only because Paul had part in the first resurrection through Christ that he can have such blessed assurance. I'm sorry to say you do not have the same blessed assurance.

So you deny that Christ; the first to rise from the dead committed His Spirit to the Father in heaven as He hang dying on the cross?

 

[claninja]

How do we partake in HIS physical (bodily) death and resurrection? When we are born from above by His Spirit. It's our birth - but it is not our resurrection - it is HIS physical (bodily) resurrection - not ours.

maybe we are talking past each other. It seems we agree. This is the exact point I was making. When we partake in Christ’s Death and resurrection we are baptized in his death and raised to a new life (Colossians 2:12). By spiritually partaking in his death and resurrection we are born again to never be hurt by the 2nd death (John 11:25) and to become a kingdom of priests (1 Peter 2:9).

the main difference seems to be how to define the 1st resurrection. I say it is Jesus. You seem to believe to be the resurrection at the 2nd coming.

 

[shilohsfoal]

It seems your doctrine has also blinded you to the teachings of the Apostle Paul. It is abundantly clear, as I have shown that Paul anticipated being with Christ in heaven when he breathed his last. It is only because Paul had part in the first resurrection through Christ that he can have such blessed assurance. I'm sorry to say you do not have the same blessed assurance.

So you deny that Christ; the first to rise from the dead committed His Spirit to the Father in heaven as He hang dying on the cross?

Paul never claimed to have been resurrected.Not once.
2 Timothy 2:18 who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.

You have deviated from the truth.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Paul never claimed to have been resurrected.Not once.
2 Timothy 2:18 who have deviated from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.

You have deviated from the truth.

Not so!

Colossians 3:1-4 goes on to add, “If ‘ye then be risen with’ (or) sunegeiro (Strong’s 4891) Christ (speaking in the present tense about those who have experienced spiritual resurrection in Christ), seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear (speaking of the second coming), then shall ye also appear with him in glory (referring to the physical resurrection which is future tense).”

There are two distinct resurrections outlined in this reading, the first being spiritual and the second being physical. The initial resurrection of necessity sees a spiritual change, whereas, the second resurrection of necessity requires a physical change. Interestingly, the Greek word sunegeiro is again used here to describe the spiritual resurrection of the penitent sinner through union with Christ. No one could surely dismiss the current reality of the resurrection outlined at the beginning of the above passage. Moreover, those that have experienced the aforementioned resurrection are then instructed to “seek” and “set their affection” upon “those things which are above” – spiritual actions that are to be performed in this scene of time. The key to experiencing the reality of this current resurrected life is found in the concluding part of the reading that our earthly life is “hid with Christ in God.”

Ephesians 2:1-6 also says, “you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, ‘hath quickened us together’ (or) suzoopoieo (Strong’s 4806) with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath ‘raised us up together’ (or) sunegeiro (Strong’s 4891) and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

The same two Greek words found in Colossians 2:10-14 are also used in this reading to describe the spiritual resurrection. Again, the word rendered “quickened” here in Ephesians 2 is the Greek word suzoopoieo, which indicates a uniting to Christ in mystical union by means of being spiritually revitalized and made alive. The Greek word sunegeiro carries the meaning of union with Christ through resurrection. It is also in the aorist active demonstrating that it relates to the present. All sane theologians know that is not therefore not talking about physical resurrection.

 

[shilohsfoal]

maybe we are talking past each other. It seems we agree. This is the exact point I was making. When we partake in Christ’s Death and resurrection we are baptized in his death and raised to a new life (Colossians 2:12). By spiritually partaking in his death and resurrection we are born again to never be hurt by the 2nd death (John 11:25) and to become a kingdom of priests (1 Peter 2:9).

the main difference seems to be how to define the 1st resurrection. I say it is Jesus. You seem to believe to be the resurrection at the 2nd coming.

The first resurrection takes place when Christ comes. Daniel spoke of it.

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.
Daniel 12:2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

It's when Daniels people are delivered.
God sent alot of prophets to Israel who prophecied of Israel, both good things and bad. But he did send them to Israel.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The first resurrection takes place when Christ comes. Daniel spoke of it.

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.
Daniel 12:2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

It's when Daniels people are delivered.
God sent alot of prophets to Israel who prophecied of Israel, both good things and bad. But he did send them to Israel.

There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

 

[claninja]

The first resurrection takes place when Christ comes. Daniel spoke of it.

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.
Daniel 12:2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

It's when Daniels people are delivered.
God sent alot of prophets to Israel who prophecied of Israel, both good things and bad. But he did send them to Israel.

As @sovereigngrace put very will with a multitude of NT scripture as evidence, Christ is literally the first resurrection.

Just from a logical standpoint, if Christ was the first to rise from the dead to eternal life, any resurrection after him would not be first.

revelation 20:6 states blessed are those that partake in the first resurrection as they are not hurt by the 2nd death and are a kingdom of priests. The NT states this to be true (John 11:25-26, 1 Peter 2:9) for those who partake in Christ’s death and resurrection (Colossians 2:12). The NT shows how to interpret the parabolic language of revelation 20.

additionally the passage you quoted doesn’t mention 2 bodily resurrections for believers, separated by a period of time. It only mentions the judgement Where both good and bad awake from the graves.

 

[shilohsfoal]

As @sovereigngrace put very will with a multitude of NT scripture as evidence, Christ is literally the first resurrection.

Just from a logical standpoint, if Christ was the first to rise from the dead to eternal life, any resurrection after him would not be first.

revelation 20:6 states blessed are those that partake in the first resurrection as they are not hurt by the 2nd death and are a kingdom of priests. The NT states this to be true (John 11:25-26, 1 Peter 2:9) for those who partake in Christ’s death and resurrection (Colossians 2:12). The NT shows how to interpret the parabolic language of revelation 20.

additionally the passage you quoted doesn’t mention 2 bodily resurrections for believers, separated by a period of time. It only mentions the judgement Where both good and bad awake from the graves.

The passage I quoted is about the nation of Israel.
Not Anchorage Alaska.

When Jesus spoke of the abomination nof Desolation, he didn't say it was a worldwide event.

 

[claninja]

The passage I quoted is about the nation of Israel.
Not Anchorage Alaska.

When Jesus spoke of the abomination nof Desolation, he didn't say it was a worldwide event.

none of this even remotely addresses my or @sovereigngrace ‘s argument that it is literally Jesus that is the first resurrection.

do you not believe that Jesus is the first one to be resurrected to eternal life?

 

[shilohsfoal]

none of this even remotely addresses my or @sovereigngrace ‘s argument that it is literally Jesus that is the first resurrection.

do you not believe that Jesus is the first one to be resurrected to eternal life?

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


This verse speaks of those who take part in the first resurrection. It says they were beheaded for thier witness of Christ and they had not worshiped the beast or its image.

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

No, these are not Jesus who John saw in Revelation 20:4.They are Israelis who during the last three and a half years before Christ comes, preach the gospel in Israel. They literaly follow in Jesus's footsteps doing what he tells them to do in the gospel. I found it ironic that they preach the same amount of time Jesus did and Israel is being occupied by armed forces of gentiles during those 42 months.
Talk about following the Lamb, they literaly walk in his shoes.

If you didn't have to believe everything is about yourself and for your glory, then you might see clearly enough to understand who it's really about here.