Early church opposition to endless hell

[ArmyMatt]

why revive another dead thread?

 

[rakovsky]

Because I am trying to understand the Apocalypse of Peter, which I read recently. Learning about the text brought up a couple issues like universal salvation (the thread topic), Christ's condemnation of Peter trying to make booths/tents, and Peter seeing saints in heaven before the General Resurrection having flesh, that I am trying to sort out.

By the way, you do a very good job responding to threads.
Peace.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, but Clement doesn't really talk to us and doesn't understand Orthodoxy. it's best to start a new thread, not revive one that hasn't been posted in for a year.

and thanks.

 

[rakovsky]

Update: It looks like the Apocalypse of Peter doesn't necessarily preach universal salvation.
Based on the Rainer Fragment, Chapter 14 appears to teach that due to the prayers of the righteous, God can bring condemned sinners for whom the righteous pray out of Hell, but it doesn't say that this is the case with all sinners. The section that more clearly teaches universal salvation is considered generally by scholars to be a separate story in the Ethiopic text written centuries later. I wrote about the text issue more on my thread here: THE APOCALYPSE OF PETER (1st - mid-2nd century) Questions.

 

[ArmyMatt]

please just let this thread stay dead

 

[ClementofA]

Really? Second hand quotes of second hand quotes by some anonymous doods on another forum. Why don't you invest a little time and actually read the ECF for yourself and quote them correctly, title, chapter and paragraph. Not just "This guy said this and that guy say said that."

You are already, or should be, aware that i have invested a lot of time, not just with the ECF in English as you do, but also with the Greek texts, such as here:

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

 

[ClementofA]

Update: It looks like the Apocalypse of Peter doesn't necessarily preach universal salvation.
Based on the Rainer Fragment, Chapter 14 appears to teach that due to the prayers of the righteous, God can bring condemned sinners for whom the righteous pray out of Hell, but it doesn't say that this is the case with all sinners. The section that more clearly teaches universal salvation is considered generally by scholars to be a separate story in the Ethiopic text written centuries later. I wrote about the text issue more on my thread here: THE APOCALYPSE OF PETER (1st - mid-2nd century) Questions.

Thanks, i'll take a look at that & study it when i have time.

I may not have ever seen it if you hadn't mentioned it here, as i rarely visit this forum, except for topics related to universalism.

 

[ClementofA]

if aionios doesn't mean eternal, then are the righteous only for age-long life?

The True Church? I'm Disillusioned.

First i'll post some introductory info regarding definitions.

According to Webster's dictionary the English word eonian, aeonian being a variant spelling, (not the English word "eternal"), comes from the Greek word aionion.

Another variant is aeonic. They all mean, according to Webster's definition, "lasting for an immeasurably or indefinitely long period of time". Webster's adds "Origin and Etymology of aeonian...from Greek aiṓnios "lasting an age, perpetual" (derivative of aiṓn eon) + 2-an; aeonic from eon + 1-ic". Definition of EONIAN

OTOH for the English word "eternal":

## History and Etymology for *eternal*

Adjective

Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin *aeternalis* , from Latin *aeternus* eternal, from *aevum* age, eternity — more at [AYE](Definition of AYE)

Definition of ETERNAL

Another dictionary says re eonian "Of, relating to, or constituting an eon" & "eonian - of or relating to a geological eon (longer than an era) aeonian. 2. eonian - continuing forever or indefinitely..." eonian

"lasting for an indefinitely long period of time"

Definition of eonian

"Of, relating to, or constituting an eon"

http://www.memidex.com/eonian+pertaining-adjective

"Of or pertaining to an eon"

What does EONIAN mean?

The Concordant Literal New Testament consistently renders aionion as eonian.

if aionios doesn't mean eternal, then are the righteous only for age-long life?

Getting back to this question, and in light of the definitions above, i'll rephrase the query as:

If aionion(=eonian) doesn't mean eternal, then do the righteous only obtain a finite eonian life?

Eonian life is contrasted with eonian punishment (Mt.25:46). From one universalist perspective that verse concerns contrasting finite eonian destinies, not final endless destinies. So it could refer to contrasting destinies in a future finite eon, such as the millenial eon.

For Jesus said believers would obtain eonian/aionion life in the coming eon (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30), limiting eonian life to a single finite eon, given that Scripture often speaks of multiple future eons to come (Lk.1:33; Eph.2:7; Rev.11:15; 22:5, etc).

Does that imply that believers - only - obtain a finite life in a finite future eon? No, Matthew 25:46 doesn't address the subject. Though other scriptures do indicate that the believer's life will be endless, such as those that speak of them becoming "immortal", "can no longer die", etc. Consider these passages:

Isa.25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Lk.20:35 But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage.
36 In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

Acts 3:21 Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.

Rom.8:17 and if children, also heirs: heirs indeed of God, and joint-heirs of Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified together.

Rom.8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

1 Cor.9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death…28 Now when all shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all to Him, so that God may be all in all.

1 Cor.15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable.

1 Cor.15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

1 Cor.15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Heb.13:14 For here we are not having a permanent city, but we are seeking for the one which is impending."

1 Pet.1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in the heavens for you,

1 Pet.5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

Rev.2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.

Rev.3:5 Like them, the one who is victorious will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

Rev.3:12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

Rev.21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The following opinion touches upon the subject:

"The Greek language has a number of terms to express endlessness, all of which are "stronger" than aioon, for it never expresses endlessness. Five distinct "eternities" are clearly marked in the Scriptures. How can any one of them be endless? This present eon is about to end with Christ's advent. That will usher in the coming eon, which will not last much longer than a thousand years. The rendering "forever and ever" ought to show even a sober English reader that "forever" cannot be endless. The words akataluton, indissoluble (Heb.7:16), aperanton, interminable (1 Tim.1:4), involve endlessness, as do aphtharton, incorruptible, and athanasia, immortality. In each case Greek uses the negative to express endlessness. The strongest expression is ouk telos, no consummation (Luke 1:33). Here again Scripture is made subject to tradition, and man's word replaces God's."

Those who believe in this life get the special(cf. 1 Tim.4:10-11) salvation called "life eonian" (John 10:27-29; Mt.25:46), life in the coming millenial eon. OTOH unbelievers will be cast into "hell" until they also become saved. For God is the Saviour of all, "ESPECIALLY" of those presently believing:

1 Tim.4:10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, 11 especially of believers.

Related CF threads on this topic:

Matt Slick: "The truth is, they (universalists) are right"

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

Could most modern translations be in error?

Matt 25:46 posts:
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?


Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[prodromos]

Another wall of text that no one has the time to respond to.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The True Church? I'm Disillusioned.

First i'll post some introductory info regarding definitions.

According to Webster's dictionary the English word eonian, aeonian being a variant spelling, (not the English word "eternal"), comes from the Greek word aionion.

Another variant is aeonic. They all mean, according to Webster's definition, "lasting for an immeasurably or indefinitely long period of time". Webster's adds "Origin and Etymology of aeonian...from Greek aiṓnios "lasting an age, perpetual" (derivative of aiṓn eon) + 2-an; aeonic from eon + 1-ic". Definition of EONIAN

OTOH for the English word "eternal":



Another dictionary says re eonian "Of, relating to, or constituting an eon" & "eonian - of or relating to a geological eon (longer than an era) aeonian. 2. eonian - continuing forever or indefinitely..." eonian

"lasting for an indefinitely long period of time"

Definition of eonian

"Of, relating to, or constituting an eon"

http://www.memidex.com/eonian+pertaining-adjective

"Of or pertaining to an eon"

What does EONIAN mean?

The Concordant Literal New Testament consistently renders aionion as eonian.



Getting back to this question, and in light of the definitions above, i'll rephrase the query as:

If aionion(=eonian) doesn't mean eternal, then do the righteous only obtain a finite eonian life?

Eonian life is contrasted with eonian punishment (Mt.25:46). From one universalist perspective that verse concerns contrasting finite eonian destinies, not final endless destinies. So it could refer to contrasting destinies in a future finite eon, such as the millenial eon.

For Jesus said believers would obtain eonian/aionion life in the coming eon (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30), limiting eonian life to a single finite eon, given that Scripture often speaks of multiple future eons to come (Lk.1:33; Eph.2:7; Rev.11:15; 22:5, etc).

Does that imply that believers - only - obtain a finite life in a finite future eon? No, Matthew 25:46 doesn't address the subject. Though other scriptures do indicate that the believer's life will be endless, such as those that speak of them becoming "immortal", "can no longer die", etc. Consider these passages:

Isa.25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Lk.20:35 But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage.
36 In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

Acts 3:21 Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.

Rom.8:17 and if children, also heirs: heirs indeed of God, and joint-heirs of Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified together.

Rom.8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

1 Cor.9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death…28 Now when all shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all to Him, so that God may be all in all.

1 Cor.15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable.

1 Cor.15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

1 Cor.15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Heb.13:14 For here we are not having a permanent city, but we are seeking for the one which is impending."

1 Pet.1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in the heavens for you,

1 Pet.5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

Rev.2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.

Rev.3:5 Like them, the one who is victorious will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

Rev.3:12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

Rev.21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The following opinion touches upon the subject:

"The Greek language has a number of terms to express endlessness, all of which are "stronger" than aioon, for it never expresses endlessness. Five distinct "eternities" are clearly marked in the Scriptures. How can any one of them be endless? This present eon is about to end with Christ's advent. That will usher in the coming eon, which will not last much longer than a thousand years. The rendering "forever and ever" ought to show even a sober English reader that "forever" cannot be endless. The words akataluton, indissoluble (Heb.7:16), aperanton, interminable (1 Tim.1:4), involve endlessness, as do aphtharton, incorruptible, and athanasia, immortality. In each case Greek uses the negative to express endlessness. The strongest expression is ouk telos, no consummation (Luke 1:33). Here again Scripture is made subject to tradition, and man's word replaces God's."

Those who believe in this life get the special(cf. 1 Tim.4:10-11) salvation called "life eonian" (John 10:27-29; Mt.25:46), life in the coming millenial eon. OTOH unbelievers will be cast into "hell" until they also become saved. For God is the Saviour of all, "ESPECIALLY" of those presently believing:

1 Tim.4:10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, 11 especially of believers.

Related CF threads on this topic:

Matt Slick: "The truth is, they (universalists) are right"

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

Could most modern translations be in error?

Matt 25:46 posts:
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?


Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

again, a lot of your reading, no real reason why I should take you seriously when the Church Fathers disagree with you as do at least 3 Ecumenical Councils.

and posting so much stuff doesn't look impressive.

 

[ClementofA]

again, a lot of your reading, no real reason why I should take you seriously when the Church Fathers disagree with you as do at least 3 Ecumenical Councils.

To many denominations my response would have weight to it & yours would look bare naked. After all i supported mine with Scripture, etc.

OTOH you haven't quoted anything - whether scripture or human opinion - from any of your sources (CF, dark age councils) that opposes the evidence i posted. Why should anyone blindly believe your opinion that they "disagree with [me]", even if they think such sources have any value relative to the Scriptures?

Who would a judge decide has the evidence in their favor. Your barenaked opinion with no supporting evidence for it, or mine with clothes on. Yet that i have found is your typical response here.

 

[Not David]

again, a lot of your reading, no real reason why I should take you seriously when the Church Fathers disagree with you as do at least 3 Ecumenical Councils.

and posting so much stuff doesn't look impressive.

But, but, he quotes David Bentley Hart.

 

[ArmyMatt]

To many denominations my response would have weight to it & yours would look bare naked. After all i supported mine with Scripture, etc.

OTOH you haven't quoted anything - whether scripture or human opinion - from any of your sources (CF, dark age councils) that opposes the evidence i posted. Why should anyone blindly believe your opinion that they "disagree with [me]", even if they think such sources have any value relative to the Scriptures?

Who would a judge decide has the evidence in their favor. Your barenaked opinion with no supporting evidence for it, or mine with clothes on. Yet that i have found is your typical response here.

it's because you've been here before, been given quotes in the past and references, but don't listen to anyone on here.

I can only tell Coach Tomlin on TV what he should have done so many times before I realize it's a one-sided conversation.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But, but, he quotes David Bentley Hart.

yep, you can't go wrong with wordy fluff and almost zero substance.

 

[ClementofA]

it's because you've been here before, been given quotes in the past and references, but don't listen to anyone on here.

I don't know how the very rare from you "quotes in the past and references" to other topics have anything to do with the specific topic of my post #88 in answer to your question. Your usual M.O. is "dark ages councils, end of discussion".

As far as the claim i "don't listen to anyone on here" what gives you that idea? Can you read the minds of anonymous internet posters? Did i not just listen to, and respond to, your post #'s 90 & 93 here? As well as answer your question in quite some detail?

Or is it that you just don't have the time or interest to engage in this debate seriously & wish it would just go away as per your post #'s 81, 83 & 85 above? Your responses, even from the very first i engaged you on this years ago, suggest that is the case. To protect your flock, eh? But to just ban the topic altogether would not be in the spirit of open discussion & debate as per EO? Hence the responses always to squash the discussion? Keep it real.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't know how the very rare from you "quotes in the past and references" to other topics have anything to do with the specific topic of my post #88 in answer to your question. Your usual M.O. is "dark ages councils, end of discussion".

As far as the claim i "don't listen to anyone on here" what gives you that idea? Can you read the minds of anonymous internet posters? Did i not just listen to, and respond to, your post #'s 90 & 93 here? As well as answer your question in quite some detail?

Or is it that you just don't have the time or interest to engage in this debate seriously & wish it would just go away as per your post #'s 81, 83 & 85 above? Your responses, even from the very first i engaged you on this years ago, suggest that is the case. To protect your flock, eh? But to just ban the topic altogether would not be in the spirit of open discussion & debate as per EO? Hence the responses always to squash the discussion? Keep it real.

if you actually listened to us, and dealt with what we believe, you wouldn't keep screwing up how we define hell. you wouldn't keep getting that wrong.

and to your last point, the forum has rules. St Justin's is where the non-Orthodox can debate the Orthodox. not the non-Orthodox to debate each other. you were first told that by someone other than me, and kept doing it.

you can't squash discussions that aren't discussions. if you actually wanted to talk to us, you would debate hell as we see it, not as you define it.

 

[ClementofA]

and to your last point, the forum has rules. St Justin's is where the non-Orthodox can debate the Orthodox. not the non-Orthodox to debate each other. you were first told that by someone other than me, and kept doing it.

Actually i continued the discussion on another forum. And linked to it from the closed thread here. Yet even after ending the discussion in that manner the thread was closed anyway. Why?

if you actually listened to us, and dealt with what we believe, you wouldn't keep screwing up how we define hell. you wouldn't keep getting that wrong.

Show me where i ever got it wrong.

you can't squash discussions that aren't discussions. if you actually wanted to talk to us, you would debate hell as we see it, not as you define it.

Where have you ever provided a concise complete comprehensive definition to me. Never. Just basically continual responses of "dark ages councils, end of discussion" type stuff. And i don't expect you to start now providing such a definition, since it's evident you just want the debate re universalism to go away.

The bottom line is you make God into an eternal sicko sadist & you've never offered anything to refute that & never will:

yes, really, not a torture chamber. we don't read it that way. it helps if you know WHAT we believe about a certain passage prior to commenting on our belief.

That's merely semantics. You can cover a snake in chocolate syrup & call it a chocolate bar, but it's still a snake & always will be.

Your God:

1. Sends people to endless suffering.
2. He could have prevented this by annihilation or other means.
3. Therefore He is a sick sadist infinitely worse than Hitler, Satan & Stalin combined.

The sufferings of just one individual in that hell forever will infinitely surpass all the combined sufferings during human mortal history. The comparison is like one drop of water to trillions of universes full of nothing but water.

there's the issue, love is always free, so it is never forced.

If God knew that without His forcing them to be saved, they would reject Him for all eternity & be tormented, then He would be a monster if He didn't force them to be saved. Similarly, many believe He will force aborted babies into heaven without their having chosen it of their own free will. Likewise, many believe He will force others in heaven to remain there forever without having a free choice to reject God as many angels of heaven once did. So, given that, forcing would not appear to be an issue with Love Omnipotent. At least not in the after life (i.e. after death, the hereafter).

God's love does not expire like a carton of milk, so Love Omnipotent will pursue the salvation of sinners for as long as it takes into eternity to save them. Eternity allows an infinite number of chances to receive salvation & be delivered from hell's torments. If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. Therefore universal salvation is truth.

love does not annihilate.

It saves all. Though given only the choice between annihilation and a being getting endless torments, it would choose the more loving & merciful of the two. Therefore endless hell is a myth.

If God created human beings such that they are (1) "eternally existing (as He Himself is)", so that it would be impossible to annihilate them even if Love Omnipotent wanted to, and (2) if He knew in advance that some of them would spend eternity rejecting Him, then (3) He is a monster for having created them that way.

 

[ClementofA]

For St. Gregory its not that eternal torment is evil nor that its inflicted by God, only that he believes God will be successful in eventually purging the soul of what he calls its abnormal alien mixture by extracting its natural life from its sinful attachments.

Whether the "ETERNAL - TORMENTS" you speak of - are inflicted directly by God, or not, He is still 100% responsible for them, if they go on forever. You see?

 

[ClementofA]

Human logic.

Should i abandon my God created in His image human logic, reason, conscience & the clear testimony of the Scriptures for "dark ages councils" or some so-called "father's" opinion of them? Is that what you have done? How should i go about doing that? A lobotomy?

 

[ClementofA]

he can't conform to the environment which is punishing him, since what is tormenting him is God's love.

There it is in your own words...."what is tormenting him is God's love".

Essentially that is no different than God is tormenting him.

Thanks for your admission.

I'll add these quotes here also for the record:

it's not stalking if God is everywhere present by nature. God is not only following, He is also what the sinner is running toward, and Who is running with him. that is why it's a maddening attempt to escape from the One Who is no matter where you turn.

no, hell is not remorse in that sense. the sinner sins because he doesn't want to follow God. so hell being God's presence means he can only face that which he hates.

I don't think it was an overstatement to consider it torment, consuming fire, suffering, an undying worm.

Not just a little regret.

But what's important I think is to understand it's not because of God's retribution, but rather because of the actual state of the person (which is of their own doing and choice).

So if I ever give any other impression, please forgive me. Of course Fr. Matt is the one to listen to. I'm just chiming in, for my own benefit in case I need correction as much as for anyone else's.