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Kylie

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This was in regard to His resurrection I believe.

I don't recall you giving me any sources about the resurrection. You said in post 1525 that the sources you provided were regarding the crucifiction, not the resurrection.
 
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miknik5

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Itś terrible to me that some believe that anyone can say anything...that people can claim anything...it doesn´t make it true....

This statement implies that peopleś words can not be trusted...

With that line of thinking, what is the point of asking anyone to provide evidence of anything.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Uh, dude, could you sort out your quote tags there please?

So, why ARE you here, Kylie? I'd love to have a real conversation with you, but you don't seem to want to go that way.
 
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Kylie

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Itś terrible to me that some believe that anyone can say anything...that people can claim anything...it doesn´t make it true....

This statement implies that peopleś words can not be trusted...

With that line of thinking, what is the point of asking anyone to provide evidence of anything.

There's a big difference between a person making a claim and a person making a claim and backing up that claim with evidence.
 
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Kylie

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So, why ARE you here, Kylie? I'd love to have a real conversation with you, but you don't seem to want to go that way.

I'm just asking you to sort out your quote tags so I can properly quote your post.

If you choose to interpret that as me not wanting to converse with you, that's on you, not me.
 
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miknik5

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There's a big difference between a person making a claim and a person making a claim and backing up that claim with evidence.
Again, I now understand why the WORD of GOD is not sufficient.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'm just asking you to sort out your quote tags so I can properly quote your post.

If you choose to interpret that as me not wanting to converse with you, that's on you, not me.

Alright. I'll do a better job on my quote tags next time ... :cool:
 
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Oncedeceived

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More threats.

No. God wants people to love him or be tortured. That is not a choice and that is not love. The god of the bible puts justice before love.
Would it be right then to show a child rapist love rather than justice?

Then how do you know it is His plans?
It was written over 2,000 years ago and spell out pretty well.

Which is not happening.
Science says otherwise.
43 photos show how extreme weather and natural disasters have gotten more intense over the last decade
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Should I go on?

Yes so if we disagree it is because god exists if we agree it is because god exists. Convienient.
But true.

Ok, Muslims have let me know also. How do I know which hell I am going to?
I'd be finding out.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Oncedeceived

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So what? I can claim I was in mission control for the last space shuttle launch. People can claim anything.
So do you hold other ancient writers to the same degree of doubt? Plato? Aristotle? Pliny the Elder? Do you question whether or not they were eyewitnesses to events they wrote about?

And not a single source, and he uses logical fallacies, such as the argument from incredulity.
Ok.
Do you have a source that claims that Jesus didn't exist and wasn't crucified like the Bible, Josephus, Tacitus, Lucian, Mara Bar-Serapion, and the Talmud say that He was?



Must be very convenient for you that you can use the terms so interchangeably. Makes it easy to make the points you want.
Are you serious? Jesus was a Jew and His followers were Jews. Its not a matter of convenience, but of fact.



Yes, I often tell my husband that I've punished our daughter, and then not told him what she did wrong until much later.
You have quite a problem with analogy.



I think you need to read my post again. People are willing to die for something they believe is true without actually knowing for a fact. Why do you think this could not have happened with the early Christians?
1. People were present when He was crucified.
2. People risked their lives to follow Jesus after He was crucified.
3. If they didn't witness the events there would be no reason to worship a dead man who was killed in the way of the worst criminals of the time. I mean I can't think of a better way to kill a movement that claims someone is God than to have the person killed and gone.
4. The tomb was empty. Which was a big thing because they had it guarded.
5. They probably knew many of the people that saw Jesus after His crucifixion.
6. And most importantly really, they would have known for a fact if it were true. They followed Jesus, they say Him put to death. Why would they risk their own lives for a lie they would have knowledge of being a lie?



Can you show me evidence that any of these early Christians were also eyewitnesses of the crucifiction?
The church grew exponentially right after the crucifixion.



Are you serious? When I was in high school, I was teased for being a Star Trek fan. Does that mean that Captain Kirk and Mister Spock are real? Why would my classmates have mocked Star Trek if it wasn't real?
That wasn't really my point.



I take that to mean you don't have a citation for it then.
Do you understand history and historical documentation? I think not.



Raphael Lataster, PhD (Studies in Religion) from the University of Sydney, wrote his Master’s thesis on Jesus ahistoricity theories, concluding that historical and Bayesian reasoning justifies a sceptical attitude towards the ‘Historical Jesus’.

Richard Carrier, doctorate in ancient history from Columbia University.

Robert M. Price, received a Master of Theological Studies in New Testament from Gordon–Conwell Theological Seminary in 1978. At Drew University he was awarded one Ph.D. in Systematic Theology in 1981 and another in New Testament in 1991. He was pastor of the First Baptist Church in Montclair, New Jersey. He has served as Professor of Religion at Mount Olive College, Professor of Theology and Scriptural Studies at Johnnie Colemon Theological Seminary and Professor of Biblical Criticism for the Center for Inquiry Institute in Amherst, New York.

Earl Doherty, bachelor's degree in Ancient History and Classical Languages.
Thank you that tells me volumes of where you are coming from.
 
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Kylie

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So do you hold other ancient writers to the same degree of doubt? Plato? Aristotle? Pliny the Elder? Do you question whether or not they were eyewitnesses to events they wrote about?

Well, for a start, if we go by the maxim "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," then the evidence we require for the extraordinary claims of the Bible is going to necessarily be much greater than the evidence for Plato, or Aristotle, of Pliny the Elder.

Plato mostly wrote about philosophy, as was Aristotle. Pliny the Elder wrote about a lot of things, but he got some of it wrong. In short, I would say that if they wrote about some particular event, then whether we believe their account or not should be based on how extraordinary the claim is (if they wrote that some person enjoyed eating some particular fruit, that's easy to believe without any other evidence, but claiming that the person could transform into an animal would require a lot of supporting evidence) and how many other sources make the same claim.

Ok.
Do you have a source that claims that Jesus didn't exist and wasn't crucified like the Bible, Josephus, Tacitus, Lucian, Mara Bar-Serapion, and the Talmud say that He was?

Nothing contemporary.

But that shouldn't surprise us. Why would anyone at the time specify that an individual who didn't exist didn't actually exist? It would be like expecting someone living today saying that Arthur the Giant poodle who was president of the world doesn't exist just in case people in the future think that Arthur the Giant Poodle existed in 2020 and was president of the world.

But inconsistencies and a lack of contermporary accounts when we would expect consistency and accounts written by people who were alive and eyewitnesses does cast doubt on the claims made later.

Are you serious? Jesus was a Jew and His followers were Jews. Its not a matter of convenience, but of fact.

Then why are followers of Jesus not called Jews today?

You have quite a problem with analogy.

In what way?

Someone describes a punishment given to a person/people who have committed a crime. It is not until quite a bit later that the crime for which they were punished is explained.

Now, is that talking about Suetonius' work or me talking to my husband about what my daughter did?

1. People were present when He was crucified.
2. People risked their lives to follow Jesus after He was crucified.
3. If they didn't witness the events there would be no reason to worship a dead man who was killed in the way of the worst criminals of the time. I mean I can't think of a better way to kill a movement that claims someone is God than to have the person killed and gone.
4. The tomb was empty. Which was a big thing because they had it guarded.
5. They probably knew many of the people that saw Jesus after His crucifixion.
6. And most importantly really, they would have known for a fact if it were true. They followed Jesus, they say Him put to death. Why would they risk their own lives for a lie they would have knowledge of being a lie?

  1. We have no sources that can reliably connected to any person who was at this alleged event.
  2. We have no way to verify that any of the people who risked their lives to follow the teachings of Jesus were people who had met him in person.
  3. There would be plenty of reason. People today follow people who have done horrible things, and people today follow people who may not have even existed - see the Cargo Cults and John Frum.
  4. We have no reliable source to show this. Even in the Gospels, the accounts of what happened at the tomb are contradictory.
  5. We have no reliable source to show that.
  6. Since we do not have sources that can be reliably connected to any eyewitnesses, al we have are stories claiming that particular things happened.
The church grew exponentially right after the crucifixion.

That is not evidence that they were eyewitnesses.

That wasn't really my point.

Then what was your point?

Do you understand history and historical documentation? I think not.

Do you understand the need to provide support for your claims? I think not.

Thank you that tells me volumes of where you are coming from.

And what is that supposed to mean?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Would it be right then to show a child rapist love rather than justice?
Justice without love is not real justice. The punishment must fit the crime and we must not be vengeful in our punishments. Eternal torment for any crime is unwarranted and the same punishment no matter what the crime is unjust.

It was written over 2,000 years ago and spell out pretty well.
How do you know it is true?

Photos of weather is your evidence? This is what you said:

Natural disasters, earthquakes, pestilence, wars get more intense and more often.

The average number of hurricanes from 2008-2017 was 6.9 from 1998-2007 was 8.1.

The average # of earthquakes from 2002-2016 was 443 from 1987-2001 was 513.

Rate of deaths per 100,000 people due to wars in 2000 was about 2 which was the 4th lowest estimated rate since year 1400. The average rate has come down from 200 in 1950 to about 3-4 today.

There are currently 392,000 deaths from COVID-19
1968 Flue Pandemic killed 1 million,
1956-58 asian flue killed 2 million,
1918 Flu Pandemic killed 20-50 million,
1910 Cholea pandemic killed 800,000
1889 flue pandemic killed 1 million
1346-53 black death killed 75-200 million
541-542 Plague of Justinian killed 25 million
165 Antonine Plague killed 5 million

But true.
This does not allow you to process any information that is against your position. It is bad epistemology.

I'd be finding out.
More threats.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Again, it says that those who don't believe are condemned not those that are not baptized.
It implies both. It can be read either way and Christians interpret it differently. Why should it be confusing if God inspired it?

Ah, well there you are. Were you filled with the Holy Spirit? Interesting question.
I believed I was just like you do I assume.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Well, for a start, if we go by the maxim "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," then the evidence we require for the extraordinary claims of the Bible is going to necessarily be much greater than the evidence for Plato, or Aristotle, of Pliny the Elder.

Plato mostly wrote about philosophy, as was Aristotle. Pliny the Elder wrote about a lot of things, but he got some of it wrong. In short, I would say that if they wrote about some particular event, then whether we believe their account or not should be based on how extraordinary the claim is (if they wrote that some person enjoyed eating some particular fruit, that's easy to believe without any other evidence, but claiming that the person could transform into an animal would require a lot of supporting evidence) and how many other sources make the same claim.
I believe that this maxim is first of all very subjective, who determines how extraordinary a claim maybe and how evidence is determined extraordinary to explain it. An example being for instance, life coming from non-living materials. This is an extraordinary claim, which would need in line with the maxim, to be extraordinary due to the fact only life we see arising comes from living materials. Another example would be intelligence, we only know of intelligence arising from intelligence...it is an extraordinary claim which according to the maxim would need extraordinary evidence. In both examples there isn't any extraordinary evidence for those claims, yet you have no problem believing both without it.


Nothing contemporary.
Would it not be most likely that if a movement (the Church) were to be growing and was considered a problem for Rome that those writers that wrote about it, would have been happy to claim that they were worshipping someone that didn't even exist? Why would they claim someone who didn't exist was crucified by Pontius Pilate?

But that shouldn't surprise us. Why would anyone at the time specify that an individual who didn't exist didn't actually exist? It would be like expecting someone living today saying that Arthur the Giant poodle who was president of the world doesn't exist just in case people in the future think that Arthur the Giant Poodle existed in 2020 and was president of the world.
Why would those that felt Christians were a problem ignore such a prominent element to the whole movement? And again, why claim He was killed by Pontius Pilate if He didn't exist?

But inconsistencies and a lack of contermporary accounts when we would expect consistency and accounts written by people who were alive and eyewitnesses does cast doubt on the claims made later.
Actually the accounts of the Bible have very few inconsistencies, and the material is very cohesive.



Then why are followers of Jesus not called Jews today?
I am totally in awe of this. That is like saying why are Christians not following Jewish standards. We are not called Jews because we are not Jewish. Jews turned to Jesus as their Messiah, which was turning away from those who rejected Christ as their Messiah. We as the Christian Church are gentiles that are grafted into the line of Jews.



In what way?

Someone describes a punishment given to a person/people who have committed a crime. It is not until quite a bit later that the crime for which they were punished is explained.

Now, is that talking about Suetonius' work or me talking to my husband about what my daughter did?
A proper analogy would be this: Your daughter got punished on Tuesday for not picking up her room, she got punished Friday for not following directions, she got punished the following Friday for another offense. When discussing with your husband who was say out of town for several months, you relay the instances of offenses of why your daughter was punished. You don't wait to punish her, you don't give a day to day report of her punishment but when listing all the offenses you do it when you are compiling all the events that were around that point.


  1. We have no sources that can reliably connected to any person who was at this alleged event.
  2. We have no way to verify that any of the people who risked their lives to follow the teachings of Jesus were people who had met him in person.
  3. There would be plenty of reason. People today follow people who have done horrible things, and people today follow people who may not have even existed - see the Cargo Cults and John Frum.
  4. We have no reliable source to show this. Even in the Gospels, the accounts of what happened at the tomb are contradictory.
  5. We have no reliable source to show that.
  6. Since we do not have sources that can be reliably connected to any eyewitnesses, al we have are stories claiming that particular things happened.
  1. I will not address each one of these separately because I want to ask you first, what evidence or source would give you this information?


That is not evidence that they were eyewitnesses.
Have you heard of inductive reasoning?



Then what was your point?
I wanted you to tell me what "evidence" could or would be used to determine this.



Do you understand the need to provide support for your claims? I think not.
Do you understand that evidence to support my claims is wide range and as far as the historical components, they are confirmed.



And what is that supposed to mean?
It gives me insight into your worldview.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Justice without love is not real justice. The punishment must fit the crime and we must not be vengeful in our punishments. Eternal torment for any crime is unwarranted and the same punishment no matter what the crime is unjust.
All sin is the same to God. WE are eternal beings, our destination is eternal. If you think you know more than God, if you think you are more moral than God, if you think you are more just than God, you will live an eternity without God. The act of receiving salvation is really very easy, so you can't really claim that it was too hard to do when you are facing God and He knows what has been done to show you He existed.

How do you know it is true?
I see it happening.

Photos of weather is your evidence? This is what you said:

Natural disasters, earthquakes, pestilence, wars get more intense and more often.

The average number of hurricanes from 2008-2017 was 6.9 from 1998-2007 was 8.1.

The average # of earthquakes from 2002-2016 was 443 from 1987-2001 was 513.
Source?
Here are the top 20 earthquakes and notice they are all within the last century.
20 Largest Earthquakes in the World

Rate of deaths per 100,000 people due to wars in 2000 was about 2 which was the 4th lowest estimated rate since year 1400. The average rate has come down from 200 in 1950 to about 3-4 today.
I didn't say anything about the deaths. The war reference is to rumors of war...so many nations and the talk of war.

There are currently 392,000 deaths from COVID-19
1968 Flue Pandemic killed 1 million,
1956-58 asian flue killed 2 million,
1918 Flu Pandemic killed 20-50 million,
1910 Cholea pandemic killed 800,000
1889 flue pandemic killed 1 million
1346-53 black death killed 75-200 million
541-542 Plague of Justinian killed 25 million
165 Antonine Plague killed 5 million
If you will notice here, you have the Antonine Plague in 165 the next plague is not for 376 years. Then the next plague after the Justinian is 805 years later, then we have 543 until the next one, now we see 21 years between, then eight, then 38, then 12. As you see they are closer together.

This does not allow you to process any information that is against your position. It is bad epistemology.
Pot kettle black.

More threats.
I said I would be looking into it. If it were me and I did in fact.
 
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Oncedeceived

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It implies both. It can be read either way and Christians interpret it differently. Why should it be confusing if God inspired it?
I thought you said some Christians interpret it that way?

I believed I was just like you do I assume.
I have no idea.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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All sin is the same to God. WE are eternal beings, our destination is eternal. If you think you know more than God, if you think you are more moral than God, if you think you are more just than God, you will live an eternity without God.
I know this is what you believe, but you have not shown it is true. I know you are more moral than God because I know you would not send someone to hell for lying. Do you think I deserve eternal punishment for my wrongdoing?

The act of receiving salvation is really very easy, so you can't really claim that it was too hard to do when you are facing God and He knows what has been done to show you He existed.
It is easy if you believe without sufficient evidence.

Here are the top 20 earthquakes and notice they are all within the last century.
20 Largest Earthquakes in the World
These are the top 20 earthquakes measured. The Richter scale was introduced in 1935. If you look at the estimated Richter scales there were larger ones in history. This shows the deadliest on record was in 1556. List of historical earthquakes - Wikipedia

I didn't say anything about the deaths. The war reference is to rumors of war...so many nations and the talk of war.
Which is not quantifiable.

If you will notice here, you have the Antonine Plague in 165 the next plague is not for 376 years. Then the next plague after the Justinian is 805 years later, then we have 543 until the next one, now we see 21 years between, then eight, then 38, then 12. As you see they are closer together.
Do you think these are the only pandemics in history? No, these are some of the worst ones.

Pot kettle black.
So this is very important to discuss. This is not the case. Here is why.

You said:
knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.

I said:
Can't you see you have set yourself up for belief no matter what evidence is provided for you? If I agree with you that must mean god exists. If I disagree with you then god exists because the bible says there will be "scoffers".

You Said:
I'm just saying that the Bible claims that in the last days there will be scoffers.

I Said:
Yes so if we disagree it is because god exists if we agree it is because god exists. Convienient.

You Said:
But true.

I Said:
This does not allow you to process any information that is against your position. It is bad epistemology.

You Said:
Pot kettle black.


Can't you see that you have set yourself up to always be right? You believe that any information or evidence that you agrees with your interpretation of the bible is correct and any information or evidence that disagrees with your interpretation of the bible is incorrect because we are just scoffers as the bible says. I have demonstrated that I can change my mind on worldview altering ideas, becasue I have. I evaluate the evidence as best I can to determine the truth. Something you are not doing in relation to your faith. So you saying I am doing the same as you are in evaluating evidence for your beliefs is untrue. I think this is really important for you to consider. If you can never be shown wrong on these issues then how can you know you are right?
 
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