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2PhiloVoid

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That's assuming the stories that are told about him are true. Prove he was crucified and then resurrected and we'll talk.

By which epistemological framework and by which fields of critical analysis do you assume we'll need to do this "proving," Kylie? Logically speaking, it's not like we can just say the epistemological framework and necessary fields of investigation which will serve in our praxis are in and of themselves "self-evident."

But since you're here, and since you're the defeater of illogic, please give us a lesson in the most proper use of logic, especially at it is and should be applied to the process of justification for saying something about the resurrection of Jesus. Ok? I'm waiting.
 
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Kylie

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By which epistemological framework and by which fields of critical analysis do you assume we'll need to do this "proving," Kylie? Logically speaking, it's not like we can just say the epistemological framework and necessary fields of investigation which will serve in our praxis are in and of themselves "self-evident."

But since you're here, and since you're the defeater of illogic, please give us a lesson in the most proper use of logic, especially at it is and should be applied to the process of justification for saying something about the resurrection of Jesus. Ok? I'm waiting.

Show me some separate sources which agree that Jesus was crucified. And no, a source that talks about how people believe Jesus was crucified isn't evidence for the crucifiction of Jesus, it's evidence that people believed it happened.

I mean, surely you agree that for something like this - an extraordinary claim - we should have extraordinary evidence before we accept that claim as true, right? And someone coming back from the dead is surely a very extraordinary claim indeed. So a few sources that make the same claim should be easy enough, right?
 
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Oncedeceived

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Show me some separate sources which agree that Jesus was crucified. And no, a source that talks about how people believe Jesus was crucified isn't evidence for the crucifiction of Jesus, it's evidence that people believed it happened.

I mean, surely you agree that for something like this - an extraordinary claim - we should have extraordinary evidence before we accept that claim as true, right? And someone coming back from the dead is surely a very extraordinary claim indeed. So a few sources that make the same claim should be easy enough, right?



1. The Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37-100)

The first non-Christian author to mention Jesus is thought to be the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (born Yosef ben Matityahu), who wrote a history of Judaism in about the year 93, the famous Antiquities of the Jews. In his writings he mentions a number of figures from the New Testament, including Jesus, John the Baptist, and Jesus’ “brother” James.


In the Antiquities, Josephus writes:

There was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:3:3).

This passage is somewhat controversial, however, and while scholars accept that Josephus mentioned Jesus, they suspect that a Christian scribe amended the passage to portray Jesus in a positive light.

The following passage, in which Josephus mentions Jesus and his “brother” James, firmly establishes the existence of Jesus:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he [Ananus] assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned (Antiquities 20:9:1).

2. Tacitus (A.D. 56-120)

Scholars point to the Roman historian Tacitus for confirmation that the crucifixion of Jesus actually took place. Writing in his Annals, he records the death of Jesus at the hands of Pontius Pilate:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

Pliny the Younger (A.D. 62-11)

The writings of a Roman governor in Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger, establish that early Christians worshiped Jesus as a god. Here he is, summing up what he learned after interrogating Christians:

They (Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food, but of an ordinary and innocent kind (Epistles 10.96).

Jewish Rabbinical literature

A number of works of classical Jewish rabbinic writing (the Babylonian Talmud in particular) contain references to Jesus.

Summarizing these allusions in his book Jesus of Nazareth, historian Joseph Klausner, writes:

There are some reliable theories regarding the fact that his name was Yeshua (Yeshu) of Nazareth; that he practiced sorcery (that is to say that he performed miracles, as was common in those days) and seduction and led Israel astray; that he mocked the words of the wise and discussed Scripture in the same way as the Pharisees; that he had five disciples; that he said he had not come to revoke the Law, nor to add anything to it; that he was hung upon a piece of wood (crucified) as a false authority and seducer on the eve of the Passover (which fell on a Saturday); and that his disciples cured diseases in his name (J.Klausner, Jesus of Nazareth, p.44)

Satirist Lucian, born (c. AD 125 – 180)

The pagan author Lucian of Samosata, while ridiculing Christians, accepted that Jesus actually existed:

The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. … You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains their contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property. (Lucian, The Passing of Peregrinus)

Philosopher Celsus (2nd century)

The 2nd-century Greek philosopher Celsus, while arguing against Christianity, also accepted that Jesus existed. Here he writes that Jesus performed his miracles through sorcery:

O light and truth! He distinctly declares, with his own voice, as ye yourselves have recorded, that there will come to you even others, employing miracles of a similar kind, who are wicked men, and sorcerers; and Satan. So that Jesus himself does not deny that these works at least are not at all divine, but are the acts of wicked men; and being compelled by the force of truth, he at the same time not only laid open the doings of others, but convicted himself of the same acts. Is it not, then, a miserable inference, to conclude from the same works that the one is God and the other sorcerers? Why ought the others, because of these acts, to be accounted wicked rather than this man, seeing they have him as their witness against himself? For he has himself acknowledged that these are not the works of a divine nature, but the inventions of certain deceivers, and of thoroughly wicked men.
 
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Oncedeceived

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That's assuming the stories that are told about him are true. Prove he was crucified and then resurrected and we'll talk.
Well I gave you sources for His crucifixion, and what do you think would be good for His resurrection?
 
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Kylie

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1. The Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37-100)

The first non-Christian author to mention Jesus is thought to be the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (born Yosef ben Matityahu), who wrote a history of Judaism in about the year 93, the famous Antiquities of the Jews. In his writings he mentions a number of figures from the New Testament, including Jesus, John the Baptist, and Jesus’ “brother” James.


In the Antiquities, Josephus writes:

There was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:3:3).

This passage is somewhat controversial, however, and while scholars accept that Josephus mentioned Jesus, they suspect that a Christian scribe amended the passage to portray Jesus in a positive light.

There are some scholars who think the entire passage is a forgery. ALso, the style is not consistent with other descriptions given by Josephus. For example, the shepherd Athronges, who Josephus describes as "...a mere shepherd, not known by anybody" gets a lot more description than Jesus does. And the beginning of the next section begins, "And about the same time another terrible misfortune confounded the Jews ..." Unless Josephus was describing Jesus as a misfortune to the Jews, The passage was liekly inserted later.

The following passage, in which Josephus mentions Jesus and his “brother” James, firmly establishes the existence of Jesus:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he [Ananus] assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned (Antiquities 20:9:1).

it's curious that you end your quotation of the text there, as the lines following shed a different light on it. The full text reads:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was put upon the road; so he [Ananus, the Jewish high priest] assembled the [ S]anhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, him called Christ, whose name was James, and some others. And when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king, desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrin without his consent. Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.
So this Jesus was the son of Damneus. Doesn't seem to be talking about the person you think it is. Furthermore since "christ" means the same in Greek that "messiah" does in Hebrew ("the anointed one") it could be used in reference to the anointment of Jesus, son of Damneus as high priest.

The full passage also shows that the Jews were so upset about the killing of James that they demanded Agrippa remove Ananus from his position. Why would the Jews be so upset that a Christian had been killed? They viewed Christians as heathens.

Also, The James being described here was killed in 62 AD by being stoned. Christian tradition holds that James the brother of Jesus died 8 years later by being thrown from a battlement, stoned, and finally clubbed to death by passing laundrymen.

2. Tacitus (A.D. 56-120)

Scholars point to the Roman historian Tacitus for confirmation that the crucifixion of Jesus actually took place. Writing in his Annals, he records the death of Jesus at the hands of Pontius Pilate:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

Bear in mind that there had been two fires that had destroyed much of the documents Tacitus would have been working with, so it's pretty hard to believe that he would have been able to find the actual records. Also, three of the Gospels had already been written by this time, so it's very likely he was just repeating what the christians of the time were telling him.

There is no other historical confirmation that Nero persecuted Christians for the burning of Rome. Josephus and Pliny the Elder - who were both in Rome in 64 CE - didn't mention Christians at all, which seems unlikely if Nero had been blaming them for the fire. Seneca the Younger's lost On Superstition also didn't mention Christianity, according to Augustine in the 4th century. Furthermore, Neither Origen nor Tertullian use this passage despite referring to or citing Tacitus elsewhere.

Finally, John Remsburg, who incidently DID believe in a historical Jesus, found this source to be unconvincing and provided 14 reasons why:

  1. It is not quoted by the Christian fathers.
  2. Tertullian was familiar with the writings of Tacitus, and his arguments demanded the citation of this evidence had it existed.
  3. Clement of Alexandria, at the beginning of the third century, made a compilation of all the recognitions of Christ and Christianity that had been made by Pagan writers up to his time. The writings of Tacitus furnished no recognition of them.
  4. Origen, in his controversy with Celsus, would undoubtedly have used it had it existed.
  5. The ecclesiastical historian Eusebius, in the fourth century, cites all the evidences of Christianity obtainable from Jewish and Pagan sources, but makes no mention of Tacitus.
  6. It is not quoted by any Christian writer prior to the fifteenth century.
  7. At this time but one copy of the Annals existed and this copy, it is claimed, was made in the eighth century -- 600 years after the time of Tacitus.
  8. As this single copy was in the possession of a Christian the insertion of a forgery was easy.
  9. Its severe criticisms of Christianity do not necessarily disprove its Christian origin. No ancient witness was more desirable than Tacitus, but his introduction at so late a period would make rejection certain unless Christian forgery could be made to appear improbable.
  10. It is admitted by Christian writers that the works of Tacitus have not been preserved with any considerable degree of fidelity. In the writings ascribed to him are believed to be some of the writings of Quintilian.
  11. The blood-curdling story about the frightful orgies of Nero reads like some Christian romance of the dark ages, and not like Tacitus.
  12. In fact, this story, in nearly the same words, omitting the reference to Christ, is to be found in the writings of Sulpicius Severus, a Christian of the fifth century.
  13. Suetonius, while mercilessly condemning the reign of Nero, says that in his public entertainments he took particular care that no human lives should be sacrificed, "not even those of condemned criminals."
  14. At the time that the conflagration occurred, Tacitus himself declares that Nero was not in Rome, but at Antium.

Pliny the Younger (A.D. 62-11)

The writings of a Roman governor in Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger, establish that early Christians worshiped Jesus as a god. Here he is, summing up what he learned after interrogating Christians:

They (Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food, but of an ordinary and innocent kind (Epistles 10.96).

And this just proves that people believed. It does not prove that Jesus existed, just that people believed that Jesus existed - something which I clearly stated doesn't count as evidence for the existence of Jesus.

Jewish Rabbinical literature

A number of works of classical Jewish rabbinic writing (the Babylonian Talmud in particular) contain references to Jesus.

Summarizing these allusions in his book Jesus of Nazareth, historian Joseph Klausner, writes:

There are some reliable theories regarding the fact that his name was Yeshua (Yeshu) of Nazareth; that he practiced sorcery (that is to say that he performed miracles, as was common in those days) and seduction and led Israel astray; that he mocked the words of the wise and discussed Scripture in the same way as the Pharisees; that he had five disciples; that he said he had not come to revoke the Law, nor to add anything to it; that he was hung upon a piece of wood (crucified) as a false authority and seducer on the eve of the Passover (which fell on a Saturday); and that his disciples cured diseases in his name (J.Klausner, Jesus of Nazareth, p.44)

Jesus only had five disciples?

In any case, Klausner wrote his book a century ago, in 1921. Given the relics discovered since then and the study that has been done, I'm not convinced that it can still be considered a reliable source.

Satirist Lucian, born (c. AD 125 – 180)

The pagan author Lucian of Samosata, while ridiculing Christians, accepted that Jesus actually existed:

The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. … You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains their contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property. (Lucian, The Passing of Peregrinus)

Again, this merely references the fact that there were people who believed it.

Philosopher Celsus (2nd century)
The 2nd-century Greek philosopher Celsus, while arguing against Christianity, also accepted that Jesus existed. Here he writes that Jesus performed his miracles through sorcery:

O light and truth! He distinctly declares, with his own voice, as ye yourselves have recorded, that there will come to you even others, employing miracles of a similar kind, who are wicked men, and sorcerers; and Satan. So that Jesus himself does not deny that these works at least are not at all divine, but are the acts of wicked men; and being compelled by the force of truth, he at the same time not only laid open the doings of others, but convicted himself of the same acts. Is it not, then, a miserable inference, to conclude from the same works that the one is God and the other sorcerers? Why ought the others, because of these acts, to be accounted wicked rather than this man, seeing they have him as their witness against himself? For he has himself acknowledged that these are not the works of a divine nature, but the inventions of certain deceivers, and of thoroughly wicked men.

Celsus' original work is lost, and we only know of it because of the response to it written by Origen of Alexandria in which he quoted Celsus' work. And Celsus is quoted as saying:

Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus... Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.
So according to Celsus, Jesus was the result of an illicit liaison between Mary and a Roman soldier.

And in any case, this does not say that Jesus was crucified.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Show me some separate sources which agree that Jesus was crucified. And no, a source that talks about how people believe Jesus was crucified isn't evidence for the crucifiction of Jesus, it's evidence that people believed it happened.
Showing you a few sources shouldn't be considered as "proof." When we're studying and evaluating the nature of any object or person from the past, in written or symbolic form, we're not going to assume that a few representations is "proof," at least not in the strictest sense of the word. Have you ever studied the Philosophy of History and Historiography, Kylie?

I mean, surely you agree that for something like this - an extraordinary claim - we should have extraordinary evidence before we accept that claim as true, right? And someone coming back from the dead is surely a very extraordinary claim indeed. So a few sources that make the same claim should be easy enough, right?
Actually, I think something like the resurrection of Jesus is a DIFFERENT kind of event in its nature than is the crucifixion of Jesus. So, no. Where the resurrection of Jesus is concerned, I'm going to have to consider the basic testimonies of those who say they were relatively close to the said event...........and then go with my intuitions and my proclivities about it all since the resurrection kind of lies outside of the field of proper historical investigation. Would you like to see a little evidence for my claim?

Well, of course you would, so here's a beginning chunk via the podcast by atheist Shannon Q to consider and then we can go from there. ;) Enjoy!

 
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Clizby WampusCat

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It doesn't say if you are not baptized you will be condemned. If you had to be it would say...if you do not believe or are not baptized you will be condemned.
I do see your point. But can't you see that is is not clear? I could just as easily say that it does not need to say you will be condemned because it says you will not be saved if you are not baptized. What does it mean to not be saved?

Sorry, that is correct. I was hurrying and should have previewed my post. It however doesn't claim that you have to wash them away in baptism, I mean it surely can be taken that way; but when the major passages of scripture do not claim that water baptism is the way to salvation but the baptism of Christ is, I will go with the abundance of scripture.
So the contradiction does not matter? You go with what has more verses supporting it? The words literally say baptism washes away sins.

Because you can't determine one passage without studying the whole Bible.
I know how this works.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Let me ask you this, if you find yourself in the tribulation and all the death and horrible evil running amuck, would you turn to God? Would you suddenly decide to worship God? Or do you feel that God is unfair, a monster that doesn't deserve to be worshiped?
This is not a response to this:

"No, all wrongdoing requires justice. And appropriate justice. No one who lies deserves to be tortured. Justice that does not fit the crime is injustice. This is why the concept of sin is much more than just moral wrongdoing, it is a crime against god that deserves death and torture. It is inhumane. If my spouse commits adultery I do not want her killed or tortured."

However, if I did believe god existed then I would ask for forgiveness because torture in hell is not something I want to go through. But unless he also convinces me somehow that his actions in the bible are moral then I will still believe I am more oral than god.

Not the same category. God has total authority of His creation. God has given his plan, if you don't want to follow it, He won't make you. That is up to you. If you think it is unfair, that is up to you but you will get what you want...not worshipping God.
This is not what I want. I want to know what is true. Believing something under threat is not a good reason to believe something. Like I said if the god oft he bible exists then I will ask for forgiveness because what other choice do I really have?

Was Israel back into her country after 2,000 years prior to 1948 after their dispersal? Was there a way to see the two witnesses all around the world prior to world wide television? Was there technology that would allow for all people in the world to have to take a mark or not be able to buy or sell? There are unions taking place that are described in the Bible. The generation that sees Israel back as a nation shall not die before the end comes. Not to mention the birth pangs talked about are coming closer and closer.
So God needs man made technology to implement his plan?

Define birth pangs.

knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.

4“Where is the promise of His coming?” they will ask. “Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.”…
Can't you see you have set yourself up for belief no matter what evidence is provided for you? If I agree with you that must mean god exists. If I disagree with you then god exists because the bible says there will be "scoffers".

All you have to do is demonstrate this is true.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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If that is how you want to interpret my testimony...you are right...we are done here.

I, had to receive the evidence...I had to get a hit over the head conversion sir...because if I hadn´t, I probably would have continued on with believing that I had a relationship with GOD apart from THE SON...and I would have probably continued on thinking where and how does JESUS fit in my relationship with GOD.

But, GOD, when HE chose to reveal THE TRUTH, did so, that I could NOT deny the TRUTH...because sir, I did receive the evidence...

So I will continue in the faith...but it wasn´t based on no evidence...

And this does not make me better...in fact, it makes me worse than those who have believed without having to feel by their lower carnal senses anything...

Blessed are those who have not seen and believe...

I had to see, and I had to feel, and I had to have a hit over the head revelation of the TRUTH...in order for me to turn and be healed....

And I did...and I know what I know...and I know what I learned...
And what I know and learned was not from a man...but from GOD.
If all you have is evidence only you have, then don't be surprised when people don't believe you especially about supernatural claims. Remember that I am not saying your experience did not happen or that it is not true. I am saying I have no reason to believe it did happen.
 
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miknik5

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If all you have is evidence only you have, then don't be surprised when people don't believe you especially about supernatural claims. Remember that I am not saying your experience did not happen or that it is not true. I am saying I have no reason to believe it did happen.
Well sir...if a spirit came to me and preached the GOSPEL so that I understood immediately in that moment and involuntarily fell to my knees understanding the extent of sin, and my own personal sin, repenting, and then this feeling as if a worn old coat was being replaced by a new and untarnished one, well sir...then whose spirit do you think shared THE TRUTH with me?

Please be careful, sir...

I know whose SPIRIT it is and I know the feeling that I was given so that I would know...not only that, HE put a yearning in me to read HIS WORD...and HE opened everything up to me so that I understood...

No, I know what I know and I know that this anointing is real...it is why no one will ever be able to convince me otherwise...I know what I know and I know from whom I learned it...

And again, I was in the quiet of my own house, on maternity leave...I wasn´t practicing my faith, and there was no leader to teach me...all that I learned was straight from GOD..
 
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miknik5

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Shame on me for having to stoop so low to even suggest to you to compare THE SPIRIT who is TRUTH...from the spirits that will NEVER acknowledge THE TRUTH...but will offer to any ear who is not protected by THE LORD...suggestions and distortions of THE TRUTH...

There is a spiritual realm sir...and there are spirits
But there is only ONE SPIRIT of GOD, and only ONE TRUTH
 
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miknik5

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Take care...

I offer you this.

Read again the WORD of GOD and have an open, clean and unbiased heart...put away all your preconceived notions as best as you possibly can...and keep reading and praying....

Ask HIM to teach you the TRUTH...and don´t seek men, but seek HIM who is THE TRUTH...and never stop seeking...for those who seek shall find...

You will see that all I have said with regards to THE GOSPEL is TRUTH...
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Well sir...if a spirit came to me and preached the GOSPEL so that I understood immediately in that moment and involuntarily fell to my knees understanding the extent of sin, and my own personal sin, repenting, and then this feeling as if a worn old coat was being replaced by a new and untarnished one, well sir...then whose spirit do you think shared THE TRUTH with me?

Please be careful, sir...

I know whose SPIRIT it is and I know the feeling that I was given so that I would know...not only that, HE put a yearning in me to read HIS WORD...and HE opened everything up to me so that I understood...

No, I know what I know and I know that this anointing is real...it is why no one will ever be able to convince me otherwise...I know what I know and I know from whom I learned it...

And again, I was in the quiet of my own house, on maternity leave...I wasn´t practicing my faith, and there was no leader to teach me...all that I learned was straight from GOD..
Like I said, I am not saying your claims are false. I am saying that you need to give sufficient evidence that they are true.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Take care...

I offer you this.

Read again the WORD of GOD and have an open, clean and unbiased heart...put away all your preconceived notions as best as you possibly can...and keep reading and praying....

Ask HIM to teach you the TRUTH...and don´t seek men, but seek HIM who is THE TRUTH...and never stop seeking...for those who seek shall find...

You will see that all I have said with regards to THE GOSPEL is TRUTH...
I did this for many years and believed. I have just seen the folly of believing something without sufficient evidence.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Shame on me for having to stoop so low to even suggest to you to compare THE SPIRIT who is TRUTH...from the spirits that will NEVER acknowledge THE TRUTH...but will offer to any ear who is not protected by THE LORD...suggestions and distortions of THE TRUTH...

There is a spiritual realm sir...and there are spirits
But there is only ONE SPIRIT of GOD, and only ONE TRUTH
Why can't you demonstrate your claims? If there is a spiritual world then just show me, if you can't the please don't be offended when I don't believe you.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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So it has been almost two months since I asked Christians to pray to God to tell them what to tell me so I would be convinced He exists. As best I can remember only three people said they would and no one has gotten a word from God. If you did pray for me, thanks, I think it shows that you care.
 
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miknik5

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Why can't you demonstrate your claims? If there is a spiritual world then just show me, if you can't the please don't be offended when I don't believe you.
I don´t have to show you...you had the evidence yourself...you just convinced yourself, as life went on that what happened to you years back, really didn´t happen...

I also told you that my daughter had a similar experience...the difference between my daughter and your daughter was that she was old enough to be afraid...your daughter was too young...yet you and your wife were...afraid so that you did pray....and GOD did something to stop this....bothering of your little daughter....


That is what happened....it is what happened to me too...

But you, I don´t know what, need something more..


(How do you not know that GOD purposely put me here, having had the same experience, to remind you of HIS FAITHFULNESS...even when you did not remain faithful?).
 
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