Ask God for Me

[2PhiloVoid]

This is your interpretation. Like I posted Churches of Christ interpret verses as it is essential to salvation. Who is right? There is no consensus and no way of knowing who is right. There are verses that also say it is required. Mk 16:16 or Acts 2:38 or Acts 22:16.

So, why are you concerned about this? Do you know someone who wants to be a Christian but can't get baptized?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

That's what I do---I just waive it away. And I've been in both kinds of churches, one teaching that baptism is a necessary part of entering the faith (i.e. The Christian Church/Church of Christ), and the other teaching that baptism is simply an act of obedience, post-faith (i.e. Southern Baptist). The thing is, neither church is just going to say that baptism is completely and utterly "optional," so I'm not sure what you're confusion on all of this is or why any of us should be bothered by it.

I cited christian scientists and Quakers do not perform baptisms.

And so, after studying it all myself, I don't see a huge primary issue. No, really, it is an issue, but I think it should belong to the 'secondary' category that Paul was referring to in Romans chapter 14.

I simply disagree. If how we are saved is not a primary issue what is? Especially for those Christians that believe we will be tortured for eternity if not saved.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Further, one believing kylie went here or there...has no bearing on salvation for any of those who believe kylie went here or there...


Which I thought was the issue (for Kylie) to begin with...

If this is what Kylie was questioning, and I believe she was, here are my words to paraphrase the many denominational beliefs that seem to be the issue for Kylie:

¨How can we believe when there are so many various ways that people are worshipping¨

My answer, from the beginning was, all that matters within each of these many denominations, is if THE FOUNDATION (of their faith) is the same...

And that FOUNDATION should be JESUS, (THE SON OF GOD who came forth from GOD and into the world for the salvation of all who would believe in HIM)/ THE TRUTH of THE GOSPEL

I agree. However, in the last post she seemed to be claiming that it was the belief behind Kylie going shopping as the foundational belief and that those that believed it thought she went grocery shopping and the others thought she went to some other shop (which I don't remember what shop that was right now). Kylie going shopping is equated to the foundational belief of Jesus. The differences of believers thinking one thing or another was her analogy of believers of Christ thinking different things. She has missed the point that for the Church to be a true Christian Church can't believe or have differing opinions about the foundation (Jesus Christ dying for our sins and rising again.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I cited christian scientists and Quakers do not perform baptisms.

Yes, and I said that the first one is a cult and the second is 'fringe,' and by fringe I mean it's hard to tell for sure and I'd be one to suggest to them that the need to go ahead and include baptism within their conception of faith.

I simply disagree. If how we are saved is not a primary issue what is? Especially for those Christians that believe we will be tortured for eternity if not saved.

The Trinity is a central, primary issue (and it, itself, is more than one issue rolled up into one, which is why it's central). So also is an acceptance of the idea of repentance from sin.

The rest of the various doctrines we can all wrestle with and are, in my mind, tiered at various levels below these issues. Secondary issues are still important and affect our lives here and now, but may not affect salvation necessarily.

Tertiary issues might be more a matter of 'taste' or 'style' .... and not directly implied in the issues of salvation.

 

[Oncedeceived]

So your solution to this salvation issue is to wave your hand at it. Just say that these two different salvation doctrines are just not an issue.

Nope, if they want to be baptized and feel it is a salvation issue, I have no problem with that. I just care they are saved.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I don't "know" that it is the case, but being that the New Testament writers weren't comprehensive on the subject of baptism, the best we can do is take ALL of the various comments in the New Testament about baptism, list them all, look at any additional intertextual contexts that may affect the implied meaning of each individual comment, read extra-biblical comments by patristric authors who came within a lifetime of the first century...........and make our best affirmation about what we think baptism is and when and how it should be done. The thing is, you're NOT REALLY going to find many Christian churches that say, "Well, you believe, so you can be baptized if you want to............or you can just waltz away and piddle for the next 50 years and not do so if you so please. Alright? Have a good salvation!" No, they're not going to say it like that.

I gave you two examples, christian science and Quakers and actually more such as red letter types and some baptist denominations.

Salvation isn't at stake on the issue of baptism and just about every Christian church that is worthy of the name in Trinitarian terms will assert that baptism is significant and should be done, regardless of whether it completes the entry to salvation or just accompanies it as a 'sign' that one has "decided to follow Jesus."

Other Christians disagree with you. Why are you right and they are wrong?

I didn't say that, specifically. But yeah, if someone doesn't follow the idea that Jesus is Divine in nature, to at least some extent, and in a way that more or less comports with the New Testament teaching, then it's hard for me to say, "Hey you, you're going to Heaven!" So yeah, I do have serious questions about some groups who "name the name of Jesus."

Why should I care about that? Most Trinitarian Christians are going to classify the 1st and the 3rd group as "pseudo-Christian cults," and the middle one as "fringe" Christianity. Of course, some might consider me to be "fringe" Christianity, but the final analysis might show differently, I think.

Well when you Christians get it worked out then let us all know.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Yes, and I said that the first one is a cult and the second is 'fringe,' and by fringe I mean it's hard to tell for sure and I'd be one to suggest to them that the need to go ahead and include baptism within their conception of faith.

This is the only answer becasue any other answer calls into question the issue of baptism. Just call them fringe and ignore them.

The Trinity is a central, primary issue. So also is an acceptance of the idea of repentance from sin. The rest of the various doctrines we can all wrestle with are, in my mind, tiered at various levels below these issues. Secondary issues are still important and affect our lives here and now, but may not affect salvation necessarily. Tertiary issues might be more a matter of 'taste' or 'style' .... and not directly implied in the issues of salvation.

Thank you for your opinion.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This is the only answer becasue any other answer calls into question the issue of baptism. Just call them fringe and ignore them.

Thank you for your opinion.

Actually, I'd prefer you say that you thank me for my "educated opinion," which is a concept a bit different than that of an un-educated opinion.

You're not going to win this, Clizby. Not by a long shot. So, buckle up!

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Not really.

Yes, really.

This is like telling my wife after I abused her that all she had to do was to let me know she did not want to be abused. It is her fault that I abused her.

This is like telling my creatures I made after I sent them to hell that all they had to do was to let me know they did not want to be sent to hell. It is their fault that sent them to hell.

No difference.

Same thing.

Same thing as what?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I gave you two examples, christian science and Quakers and actually more such as red letter types and some baptist denominations.

Red Letter? Since when has the term Red Letter Christian suddenly become one of vast importance. That's silly. Christians are Christians in Christ, red letters or black letters. In fact, I'd say all the letters are black.

Other Christians disagree with you. Why are you right and they are wrong?

What a question. If I'm right then I'm right; if I'm wrong then I'm wrong, and it many times would take volumes to show this either way.

Well when you Christians get it worked out then let us all know.

... we're working on it as you speak.

 

[Oncedeceived]

This is your interpretation. Like I posted Churches of Christ interpret verses as it is essential to salvation. Who is right? There is no consensus and no way of knowing who is right. There are verses that also say it is required. Mk 16:16 or Acts 2:38 or Acts 22:16.

Acts 2:38 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
It doesn't say he that shall not be baptized shall be condemned.
Acts 22:16 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'
It doesn't say to wash your sins away.
Mark 16:16
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Only the one that doesn't believe will be condemned. Not one that will not be baptized. Baptism is an act of commitment but not of salvation.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yes, really.

This is like telling my wife after I abused her that all she had to do was to let me know she did not want to be abused. It is her fault that I abused her.

This is like telling my creatures I made after I sent them to hell that all they had to do was to let me know they did not want to be sent to hell. It is their fault that sent them to hell.

No difference.

Nothing with humans and God equate. Punishment only comes after refusal of redemption so, it is nothing like your analogy. I take that back, there will be punishment prior to death in the near future. The tribulation period will be ghastly, and those who deny God is worthy of worship will pay the price on this earth and it will be the worse time every on earth. So I guess telling God that He didn't give you enough evidence won't prohibit you from having to accept your denial or refusal to believe there is evidence for Him.

[QuoteSame thing as what?[/QUOTE]Sin is sin regardless if you label it moral sin or whatever.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Nothing with humans and God equate. Punishment only comes after refusal of redemption so, it is nothing like your analogy.

You believe your God is telling people that He has declared them sinful, accept his conditions or He will torture them forever. If you don't accept His conditions it will be their fault that they are tortured. This is classic abuse actions.

Do you believe I deserve to be tortured in hell forever?

I take that back, there will be punishment prior to death in the near future. The tribulation period will be ghastly, and those who deny God is worthy of worship will pay the price on this earth and it will be the worse time every on earth. So I guess telling God that He didn't give you enough evidence won't prohibit you from having to accept your denial or refusal to believe there is evidence for Him.

Why do the Christians who talk about love so much use threats all the time?

Sin is sin regardless if you label it moral sin or whatever.

Did you even read what I have been saying?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Acts 2:38 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
It doesn't say he that shall not be baptized shall be condemned.

So if I ask you to go get me a red apple and you come back with a green apple do you think that you followed my request? No, you did not. This says believe and be baptized by God right? So if you just believe without baptism have you followed Gods command?

Acts 22:16 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'
It doesn't say to wash your sins away.

Yes, it actually says those words.

Mark 16:16
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Only the one that doesn't believe will be condemned. Not one that will not be baptized. Baptism is an act of commitment but not of salvation.

This is so ambiguous it can be interpreted either way. Why is this so unclear? Why is it left up to interpretation?

 

[miknik5]

You are wrong.

"Churches of Christ have a reputation for placing much stress on the need for baptism. However, we do not emphasize baptism as a "church ordinance," but as a command of Christ. The New Testament teaches baptism as an act which is essential to salvation (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16)."

Internet Ministries - The Churches of Christ...Who are these people?

You are right...HE does command us to go and preach THE GOSPEL, baptizing in the name of the FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT...

And yet, the Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT does come to those who hear and believe even prior to water baptism...
It is not an act essential to salvation....it is an act essential to obedience.

The thief on the cross was not baptized...but he certainly gained salvation that same day.

 

[miknik5]

You just can't understand what others are saying because your belief won't allow you to in my opinion.

Sorry. THE FOUNDATION that saves is different from the little foundations that are nothing in comparison to THAT FOUNDATION.

But one would have to understand that first.

 

[miknik5]

You believe your God is telling people that He has declared them sinful, accept his conditions or He will torture them forever. If you don't accept His conditions it will be their fault that they are tortured. This is classic abuse actions.

Do you believe I deserve to be tortured in hell forever?

Why do the Christians who talk about love so much use threats all the time?

Did you even read what I have been saying?

Do you believe what is said in 2 Thessalonians 2?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Do you believe what is said in 2 Thessalonians 2?

No.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You are right...HE does command us to go and preach THE GOSPEL, baptizing in the name of the FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT...

And yet, the Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT does come to those who hear and believe even prior to water baptism...
It is not an act essential to salvation....it is an act essential to obedience.

The thief on the cross was not baptized...but he certainly gained salvation that same day.

That is not what all Christians believe. The church of Christ Christians will have their own interpretation of scripture showing how baptism is essential.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You believe your God is telling people that He has declared them sinful, accept his conditions or He will torture them forever. If you don't accept His conditions it will be their fault that they are tortured. This is classic abuse actions.

WE are sinful, perfection is sinless and we are not sinless. Sin has to be covered prior to being with God. God has to judge against injustice and sin and no one would make the grade. Now we can go down the road of what ifs or why nots but the fact remains that people can not go to heaven being laden with sin. Justice is what you are calling His conditions. All sins need to be brought to justice. People who kill, rape and abuse are punished in our own human system. God sees all sin in terms of Justice. Did you lie to someone, then the person you lied to needs justice. Did you commit adultery, then your spouse needs justice. Did you have an abortion, then the child aborted needs justice. All sin requires justice.

Do you believe I deserve to be tortured in hell forever?

You have a way to not be tortured in hell forever, do you think it is God's fault if you claim He isn't worthy of worship and that you will not repent?

Why do the Christians who talk about love so much use threats all the time?

I don't know about other Christians but for me, I have like I said been on here for over twenty years and I haven't more than a few times warned of hell to people. I've spent endless hours in intellectual discussions and now there just isn't time to play around. Things are setting up very quickly for the time when the tribulation will be here and you and others, who feel there isn't enough evidence or you feel God isn't worthy to worship will face great troubles and will have to go through very perilous times. It is warning time, there is no time to forgo the warnings and partake in intellectual mind games. If that is a threat, then so be it, God doesn't fool around. He has waited patiently for all who would come to Him to make a place in Heaven and afterward, the new earth and heavens for an eternity. So yes, as I see what is quickly coming I want you and everyone that will to join God for an eternity of a world without sin and evil rather than eternal damnation. If that doesn't sound like what you want to hear, I guess that is just he way it is. I'd rather warn you, than know that I should have and didn't.

Did you even read what I have been saying?[/QUOTE]