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Kylie

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My husband has his Master's in Biology, was a college instructor and has graciously shared his knowledge with me. He shared with our children as well, our favorite game when traveling was a game he made up that someone thought of something in a kingdom, class and so forth and the rest of us had to guess what it was. So the love of Biology and Science was a very important part of our lives. I was a sponge towards Science and I have spent all but the last four years researching not only evolution but I also found an interest in Astrobiology and Cosmology. I had started looking into Quantum physics and while not very well versed in this area, I find it intriguing. I kept up with new discoveries and read online papers and studies. Abiogenesis has been a focus for me and I have read about the different hypotheses and the problems that Scientists have in each. So while I too am not an expert, nor do I hold a degree, I've had the opportunity to learn about evolution from someone who does.

So you have no formal qualifications.

Just out of curiosity, what does your husband think of evolution? Does he think evolution is real?


Totally false.

Hence why I said it was my thoughts and I didn't state it as an absolute fact.

If you understood evolution you would clearly not state that as fact. Scientists are still researching just how information would be possible in the earliest reproduction.

I found your question hard to understand, since I wasn't clear on what you meant by "information."

Evolution doesn't occur until the information can be received, edited and reproduced.

And I provided an example of the way that might have started with the enzyme thing.

I don't believe that evolution is an unguided or lacking of a goal.

Then why bother with evolution at all? Why not just start with the finished product?
 
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coffee4u

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Ah, so God was telling these guys to take all the virgin girls so they could marry them and treat them with respect, huh?

"They came in and killed everyone and forced us to marry them, but they've been so respectful!"

Of course.

Arranged/ forced marriages were the norm, stop looking at with 2020 western eyes. Different culture, different time. Once married in they became part of the nation and were treated the same as any women born in. Their own nation was doing far worse things, so yes marrying in and knowing this nation would not at least take and roast your baby on a fire to appease the many gods was a big step up.
 
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Kylie

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Arranged/ forced marriages were the norm, stop looking at with 2020 western eyes. Different culture, different time. Once married in they became part of the nation and were treated the same as any women born in. Their own nation was doing far worse things, so yes marrying in and knowing this nation would not at least take and roast your baby on a fire to appease the many gods was a big step up.

You seem to be missing my point.
 
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Oncedeceived

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So you have no formal qualifications.
Formal no.

Just out of curiosity, what does your husband think of evolution? Does he think evolution is real?
Seriously? You seriously have problems.

Hence why I said it was my thoughts and I didn't state it as an absolute fact.
That is not true.

You said: You claim it doesn't explain the fact that cells contain information, despite the fact that it does. If you understood evolution you'd understand that fact.
Right there in plain text you claim it is a fact. You answered when I asked how information came about: Evolution.

I found your question hard to understand, since I wasn't clear on what you meant by "information."
So you were not clear on what I meant but whatever I meant Evolution was the answer.

And I provided an example of the way that might have started with the enzyme thing.
No, you claimed it was the way it happened. No question. In fact you said: You told me why you assumed my answers were incorrect, but since you apparently don't have any qualifications, you don't seem capable of recognising the answers when they are given to you.

So not only did you 'think' the answer was fact, you an unqualified, uneducated person as yourself made the claim that I didn't have qualifications (as though you did) and was incapable of recognizing the answers "when they are given to me". Like I said, you are rude, arrogant and you feel you are superior to Christians.



Then why bother with evolution at all? Why not just start with the finished product?
Now how do you arrive at that?
 
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miknik5

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And why would the details all be different if they all have the same objective truth?

I mean, two people could say, "Kylie went to the shops today," and they'd have the foundation the same. But if one said that she went to the hardware store and then went to the furniture store, and the other person said she went to the supermarket and the baker and the green grocer, would you believe them? Of course not. The foundation of their claims - Kylie went to the shops today - may be the same, but the details are inconsistent, and you'd quite rightly think that something fishy was going on. They can't both be right, so one of them has to be wrong. But which one? You can't tell. And maybe both of them are wrong!

So when the details don't match, we MUST consider the foundation as suspect as well.

So when you say the foundation is sufficient, I can't believe you. The foundation is NOT sufficient.
Nope...there´s only ONE FOUNDATION and outside of that foundation, there really is no reason to move on any further...

Make sure you have THE FOUNDATION first...then you will know what yeast is...and you won´t allow it to come between your feet and THE FOUNDATION...
 
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Oncedeceived

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Nope...there´s only ONE FOUNDATION and outside of that foundation, there really is no reason to move on any further...

Make sure you have THE FOUNDATION first...then you will know what yeast is...and you won´t allow it to come between your feet and THE FOUNDATION...
Exactly, Jesus is the bedrock of Christianity and without it, one can not label themselves Christians.
 
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miknik5

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Exactly, Jesus is the bedrock of Christianity and without it, one can not label themselves Christians.
And THE FOUNDATION...and the BUILDER, and the HEAD....remaining in HIM is sufficient.

No one, after THE FOUNDATION has been laid, needs to add anything else to THE FOUNDATION...and those who know THE FOUNDATION and THE HEAD will recognize the ¨additional details¨ as just that...manmade additions, ideas, suggestions, opinions, notions...all yeast, subject to error and change...and very much not needed.
 
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Oncedeceived

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And THE FOUNDATION...and the BUILDER, and the HEAD....remaining in HIM is sufficient.

No one, after THE FOUNDATION has been laid, needs to add anything else to THE FOUNDATION...and those who know THE FOUNDATION and THE HEAD will recognize the ¨additional details¨ as just that...manmade additions, ideas, suggestions, opinions, notions...all yeast, subject to error and change...and very much not needed.
Agreed.
 
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Kylie

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Formal no.

Okay then.

Seriously? You seriously have problems.

Woah, that's a drastic over-reaction, isn't it? I asked a simple question, and for some reason you accuse me of having problems.

Why is it that you react so aggressively when I ask if your husband, who has formal qualifications in a relevant field, accepts evolution as correct?

That is not true.

You said: You claim it doesn't explain the fact that cells contain information, despite the fact that it does. If you understood evolution you'd understand that fact.
Right there in plain text you claim it is a fact. You answered when I asked how information came about: Evolution.

Except that's not what we were talking about.

If we take the relevant parts of our conversation, it would go like this:

Kylie: I think you've discounted evolution because you don't understand it.

Once: Totally false.

Kylie: Hence why I said it was my thoughts and I didn't state it as an absolute fact.

So please don't misrepresent what I've said, okay?


So you were not clear on what I meant but whatever I meant Evolution was the answer.

No.

You meant one thing, but I interpreted what you meant as something else, and the answer to what I believed you were asking was evolution.

No, you claimed it was the way it happened. No question. In fact you said: You told me why you assumed my answers were incorrect, but since you apparently don't have any qualifications, you don't seem capable of recognising the answers when they are given to you.

No, I never stated that my enzyme thing was DEFINiTELY the way it got started. In fact, given that I used the made up name Abcase for this hypothetical enzyme because it works on molecules A, B and C, I think it's quite clear that I'm using it as a hypothetical example.

So not only did you 'think' the answer was fact, you an unqualified, uneducated person as yourself made the claim that I didn't have qualifications (as though you did) and was incapable of recognizing the answers "when they are given to me". Like I said, you are rude, arrogant and you feel you are superior to Christians.

And since the enzyme example was not something I came up with myself, but was actually presented by an actual biologist who studies evolution for a living, I think it's a perfectly valid hypothesis.

Now how do you arrive at that?

If I know exactly what the finished version is going to be, and I have the capacity to produce the finished version right from the start, why would I waste time making prototypes?
 
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Kylie

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Nope...there´s only ONE FOUNDATION and outside of that foundation, there really is no reason to move on any further...

Make sure you have THE FOUNDATION first...then you will know what yeast is...and you won´t allow it to come between your feet and THE FOUNDATION...

Of course you'd say there's no reason to move any further, because once you do, we get to inconsistencies that make us wonder what's going on.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Okay then.
Ok then what?

Woah, that's a drastic over-reaction, isn't it? I asked a simple question, and for some reason you accuse me of having problems.
Yes, it was a stupid question after what I had told you.

Why is it that you react so aggressively when I ask if your husband, who has formal qualifications in a relevant field, accepts evolution as correct?
There was no reason for you to ask, when I had told you what I told you.

Except that's not what we were talking about.

If we take the relevant parts of our conversation, it would go like this:

Kylie: I think you've discounted evolution because you don't understand it.

Once: Totally false.

Kylie: Hence why I said it was my thoughts and I didn't state it as an absolute fact.

So please don't misrepresent what I've said, okay?
You clearly are taking a snippet of the conversation and making seem like the entire conversation which is not the case.

No.

You meant one thing, but I interpreted what you meant as something else, and the answer to what I believed you were asking was evolution.
You seemed pretty certain you knew what I was talking about and I was just unable to comprehend what evolution was to understand.



No, I never stated that my enzyme thing was DEFINiTELY the way it got started. In fact, given that I used the made up name Abcase for this hypothetical enzyme because it works on molecules A, B and C, I think it's quite clear that I'm using it as a hypothetical example.
Yes you did. I gave you your quote that says exactly that it answers my question and it is fact.



And since the enzyme example was not something I came up with myself, but was actually presented by an actual biologist who studies evolution for a living, I think it's a perfectly valid hypothesis.
Had you read what was being presented, you would have understood the problems still associated with that hypothesis.



If I know exactly what the finished version is going to be, and I have the capacity to produce the finished version right from the start, why would I waste time making prototypes?
God came first, the "Theory of Evolution" is man's description of His actions.
 
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miknik5

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Of course you'd say there's no reason to move any further, because once you do, we get to inconsistencies that make us wonder what's going on.
No, as I said, the FOUNDATION is sufficient
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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This is not encouraging to believe without evidence. There is a difference between not having indisputable proof and having no evidence whatsoever. It is explaining why God does not give indisputable proof of his existence. God doesn't coerce, because that would be overriding free will.
I think you are mixing up knowledge of God and free will. Does it violate my free will to have sufficient evidence that gravity is real or that the first law of thermodynamics is true? If God provided sufficient evidence that he exist that would not violate my free will. I could still not chooses to follow him or have him forgive my sins. It would actually be an informed choice over what we have now.

He gives us choice. Speaking of which, I have a question for you: do you think we actually do have free will?
There is no choice to believe he exists, we are either convinced by the evidence or we are not. So far He has not provided sufficient evidence for belief in my opinion.

As far as free will, I am not convinced we actually have free will but I an not convinced either way I guess.

None of those other manuscripts claim supernatural events or the status of your eternal life. These claims require better evidence. Also what Kylie said.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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You are also confusing the laws of God with the laws of the land.

They can get a secular legal piece of paper marriage.
They can't be married in God's eyes.
Two different things.
Ok.

I already know that God exists, so if you talk to me you know that is my starting position.
Why do you believe He exists?

Without God there are no morals. God is the one who wrote them on men's hearts but the further mankind goes away from God the more they become about one person's judgment against another's.
Romans 2:15
who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves, their thoughts accusing or else excusing them.
This happened at the time of the new covenant.


I didn't say they were all necessarily bad but because man's morals come from experience, circumstance, feelings and social climate from the point in time they are born and the surrounding culture; this makes them changeable. You only have to study the past 200 years in the west to see how laws have changed. These days morals seem to be based largely upon the warm fuzzies.
Changeable morals are a good thing. If I can be shown that my morals are hurting people unnecessarily I can change my morals based on evidence. You cannot. If God says killing homosexuals was once moral then you have to defend that.

We already established that a person who goes around bashing gay people thinks he is doing the right thing. He probably thinks he's doing society a favour.
The person who wants gay marriage also thinks it's the right thing.
Two vastly differing morals because this is what happens when people have left God. The heart knows there is a moral code in there somewhere but it gets twisted either one way or the other because it's based on emotions. This is what you get when mankind sets the morals.
If the US or any western country was overtaken by Communism you can bet your dollar that all those morals based on warm fuzzies will be tossed out the window. Would you like to be under Kim Jong-un? Because I sure wouldn't.
This is all irrelevant to if there is an absolute moral standard. If there is not, then we need to reason our morals. No other choice.

God says nature speaks of him and that man must believe and seek him diligently.
Ok, show that God exists.

Because they are hurting themselves. I could guess and say the hurt is probably at a spiritual level, but God doesn't elaborate, he just wants us to trust. If it did not hurt them in some way God would not have made the law.
Just trust without evidence. In the mean time keep telling homosexuals they are sinful for being who they are.

Rape is against ones own body and against someone else. Of course it's horrible. I put them together simply because they are sexual sins. Personally I think its worse but I don't know if God has sins on a ladder system of least bad to most bad. Sin is sin.
No this is immoral. Homosexual behavior between consenting adults hurts no one, you don't even know how it hurts anyone. Rape demonstrably hurts people forever.

We are not talking about evidence of God. I've tried before-it's pointless. I will say Again God is spirit you meet him in the spirit, the only physical evidence is creation unless God does a miracle in front of or to you. What do you think 'ghosts' and all these other unexplained things are, when they have no physical or human explanation? They are from the spiritual realm. This is also why God strictly forbids us to try and contact spirits. Fortune telling, ouija boards etc because the fallen spirit side will answer.
The supernatural has not been demonstrated to be true.
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
More scripture to keep you believing without evidence.

Some have, there is a current thread on here now by a man who said he was a homosexual and God delivered him. But whether or not isn't the point. All of us are to control ourselves. God isn't saying being tempted is wrong, he says we must master it and if we don't we are to repent of it and turn again from it. (all sin)
If a homosexual says "I can't control myself' then what about the rapist, will this be his excuse too, that he can't control himself?
I am not saying it is easy, just that Christians are called to be celibate unless married.
This sickens me. Asking homosexuals to control themselves is immoral and then comparing their "temptation" to a rapist is disgusting.
 
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coffee4u

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Ok.

Why do you believe He exists?

Changeable morals are a good thing. If I can be shown that my morals are hurting people unnecessarily I can change my morals based on evidence. You cannot. If God says killing homosexuals was once moral then you have to defend that.

This is all irrelevant to if there is an absolute moral standard. If there is not, then we need to reason our morals. No other choice.

Ok, show that God exists.

Just trust without evidence. In the mean time keep telling homosexuals they are sinful for being who they are.

No this is immoral. Homosexual behavior between consenting adults hurts no one, you don't even know how it hurts anyone. Rape demonstrably hurts people forever.

The supernatural has not been demonstrated to be true.
More scripture to keep you believing without evidence.

This sickens me. Asking homosexuals to control themselves is immoral and then comparing their "temptation" to a rapist is disgusting.

We have gone over all of this so this will be my last post on this thread, because as always it is pointless.

I believe God exists because I have a relationship with him, I feel and see his guiding hand in my life, God is spirt you meet him in the spirit.
I am sorry, you have not had this experience but that is nothing to do with me.

Because God exists and is our creator and knows everything from before to the end of time he is the ultimate authority. This is whether we like that he is the ultimate boss or not. You can argue with him if you so want, you have free will. We shall see how that works out for you.

All of Gods rules were made for the ultimate good for the society as a whole. He sees things and knows things that we do not.
A Christian is a person who not only believes in God, but trusts God. We don't have to have a detailed explanation for why sin is bad, it's enough to know that sin is very harmful. You have put feelings and human wants above the spirit. All you are seeing is the immediate needs, happiness in this life.
God says we must focus on the spiritual because that will live on forever long after the body is gone.

John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?


1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Which is why it's pointless talking to you, because you are blind to the spiritual as is every other atheist here.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Which is why it's pointless talking to you, because you are blind to the spiritual as is every other atheist here.
See, this is just rude. How about I respond, "it is pointless talking to you, because you are delusional as every other Christian here."
 
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Kylie

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Ok then what?

It's a figure of speech. It means I accept your statement.

Yes, it was a stupid question after what I had told you.

There was no reason for you to ask, when I had told you what I told you.

I didn't want to just assume something, hence I asked you specifically.

You clearly are taking a snippet of the conversation and making seem like the entire conversation which is not the case.

And you are trying to make the conversation about something else, which is not the case.

You seemed pretty certain you knew what I was talking about and I was just unable to comprehend what evolution was to understand.

Yes. I thought I understood what you were talking about. So I answered based on that. You would have me answer based on something other than what I interpret your words to be about?

Yes you did. I gave you your quote that says exactly that it answers my question and it is fact.

Please don't lie. I never stated that the enzyme idea was definitely the way it happened. I never said it was definitely a fact.

In fact, why don't you see for yourself? Here's what I said:

All matter needs to start the development of life is imperfect replication, and this could easily be satisfied by an enzyme.

Basically, an enzyme is a chemical that helps a chemical reaction but isn't used up in that reaction. It could be a molecule that can grab two other molecule and join them together. The enzyme is usually named something-ase, based on what it does. So Lactase is an enzyme that works on Lactose.

So, if we have an enzyme that takes molecule A and joins it to Molecule B to make Molecule C, we might called this enzyme Abcase. So we have lots of Abcase molecules floating around, grabbing an A and joining to a B to make a C.

Now, what happens if Molecule C is Abcase itself? We've got Abcase molecules floating around making more of themselves! That's reproduction.

And let's say some of these abcase molecules have a tiny change in the way they are put together which makes them better at joining A to B. Then this is a reproductive advantage, and this variation of Abcase is going to spread throughout the population. That's natural selection. That's evolution. And we haven't even got to cells yet.

And the Urey-Miller experiment counts as an example of an experiment that is progress in the formation of life. It shows how easily organic molecules that are the basis for life can be formed.

So please tell me where in that I used the word "fact." I am very clearly describing a hypothetical here.

Had you read what was being presented, you would have understood the problems still associated with that hypothesis.

Presented by who? You? You've never provided anything more than your opinion.

God came first, the "Theory of Evolution" is man's description of His actions.

This doesn't actually answer the question.
 
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Oncedeceived

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It's a figure of speech. It means I accept your statement.
OK.



I didn't want to just assume something, hence I asked you specifically.
And what would you have assumed?



And you are trying to make the conversation about something else, which is not the case.
From the beginning it has been about how information came about.



Yes. I thought I understood what you were talking about. So I answered based on that. You would have me answer based on something other than what I interpret your words to be about?
Not at all, but being rude, arrogant and acting like I was the one who didn't know what I was talking was not the way to discuss anything.



Please don't lie. I never stated that the enzyme idea was definitely the way it happened. I never said it was definitely a fact.

In fact, why don't you see for yourself? Here's what I said:

All matter needs to start the development of life is imperfect replication, and this could easily be satisfied by an enzyme.

Basically, an enzyme is a chemical that helps a chemical reaction but isn't used up in that reaction. It could be a molecule that can grab two other molecule and join them together. The enzyme is usually named something-ase, based on what it does. So Lactase is an enzyme that works on Lactose.

So, if we have an enzyme that takes molecule A and joins it to Molecule B to make Molecule C, we might called this enzyme Abcase. So we have lots of Abcase molecules floating around, grabbing an A and joining to a B to make a C.

Now, what happens if Molecule C is Abcase itself? We've got Abcase molecules floating around making more of themselves! That's reproduction.

And let's say some of these abcase molecules have a tiny change in the way they are put together which makes them better at joining A to B. Then this is a reproductive advantage, and this variation of Abcase is going to spread throughout the population. That's natural selection. That's evolution. And we haven't even got to cells yet.

And the Urey-Miller experiment counts as an example of an experiment that is progress in the formation of life. It shows how easily organic molecules that are the basis for life can be formed.

So please tell me where in that I used the word "fact." I am very clearly describing a hypothetical here.

You said: I think you've discounted evolution because you don't understand it. You claim it doesn't explain the fact that cells contain information, despite the fact that it does. If you understood evolution you'd understand that fact. And you said the how evolution occurred was not explained, at least, not by me. See post 804.

Or are you suggesting that you are a person who accepts that evolution can take place, but you don't understand that it is the answer to the question you were asking?

Now who is lying?



Presented by who? You? You've never provided anything more than your opinion.
The scientist you said presented it?
This doesn't actually answer the question.
Which question is that?
 
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